Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 clari

[lucida]

Hello All,

I have been looking to buy a 2+ carat investment grade quality diamond. Most importnat for me is the shine, so I wanted to make sure that the cut is excellent. I have a particular diamond I'm interested in. Here's the GIA link if anyone is interested:

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=1166230834&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

Here's the data:


gia report number

1166230834


date of issue

6/10/2014


Download PDF
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Diamond Grading Report
.



Round Brilliant


Measurements



8.38 - 8.41 x 5.13 mm

Carat Weight



2.23 carat

Color Grade



G

Clarity Grade



I2

Cut Grade



Excellent

proportions


Depth



61.1 %

Table



59 %

Crown Angle



33.0°

Crown Height



13.5%

Pavilion Angle



41.0°

Pavilion Depth



43.5%

Star Length



45%

Lower Half



80%

Girdle



Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 4.0%

Culet



None

finish


Polish



Excellent

Symmetry



Excellent

Fluorescence


Fluorescence



Strong Blue

clarity characteristics


clarity characteristics



Crystal, Feather, Needle, Indented Natural

comments

Clarity grade is based on clouds that are not shown.

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I like everything about this except for the fact that it's I2 clarity and the comments/clarity characteristics. Will this mean that it's cloudy? I asked the seller who has the diamond in one of those sealed GIA plastic, so she says that it's not cloudy. Is it possible that it's not cloudy? Also the fact that it's a GIA, means that it'll be the equivalent of an EGL SI2 or so? There was one EGL NY SI2 thatI was considering.

I also plugged in the measurements into the Holloway Cut Adviser that someone here had mentioned and the result is a 1.2! I know anything less than a 2 is very good.
So please offer your help in this please. Is it worth paying $9k and more importantly I want it to shine from across the room. Will it or not? Please help... Thank you in advance.

 

[ecf8503]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Yikes. An I2 that says "Clarity grade is based on clouds that are not shown"? Uh yeah - I'd bet it's cloudy. And maybe structurally unstable to boot.

It's a 60/60 stone - https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond

Not a bad thing, but it won't have as much fire as an ideal cut stone. If you want one that performs well in all respects, brilliance, fire, and scintillation, I'd keep looking.

This definitely isn't "investment grade" - whatever you mean by that. Diamonds are a poor investment.

 

[arkieb1]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

I2 stones are usually not eye clean and with clouds not shown as well it probably will have some fire and sparkle but it won't be a great "investment quality" which for the purpose of this post I am going to define as a nice decent quality and really sparkly diamond.

I saw you were looking at EGL stones. You need to do a number of things to get what you want.

1) Increase your budget or if that is out of the question;
2) Lower the colour of the stone you will accept
3) Go down in size and buy a decent cut
4) Think about antique or preloved items from reputable places like Jewels By Grace, Love Affair Diamonds, Old World Diamonds and what people on here sell via Loupetroup and DiamondBistro.

 

[Andelain]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Run, Forrest, run!

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Clarity grade is based on clouds that are not shown + i2 equals... RUN away!

 

[AprilBaby]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Yuk!

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

That is not investment quality. And considering those clouds, it's not even 'buy" quality . It will not shine, those clouds given I2 clarity will obscure the light return significantly. VS2 and above for "grade set on clouds not shown" is okay. But I2... never.

Diamonds are horrible investments. The only good investment is a D FL HUGE diamond that you NEVER wear and leave in a safe.

Lose the "investment grade" thing. It just makes you sound like you have no clue what you are doing and will be a signal to bad jewelers that they should take advantage of your ignorance. And that's the last thing you want.

Additionally the cut is not top of the line. That crown is low.

GIA Ex is overbroad. I will post what you need below.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Also that diamond is a 60/60 stone. With Strong Blue. Also not "investment quality".

Those are actually factors that discount diamonds. Though, for "wearing quality" they are perfect fine AS LONG AS the 60/60 has numbers in a particular range (this one does, so that is a good thing. You basically want the pavilion angle between 40.6 and 41.2). But you absolutely need an idealscope with 60/60 stones. As for strong blue fluorescence its' perfect fine (and many even love the look of it and look for it) AS LONG AS THE STONE IS NOT OVERBLUE (hazy milky). With those clouds on the I2 stone.. this is a secondary concern. The diamond is disqualified because of the clarity so whether it is overblue or not is irrelevant. BUT as you continue your search you should be aware that you always have to ask with a medium/strong/very strong blue fluorescence if the stone is overblue.

Here are some additional links for you to read:

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond *
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/tolkowsky-ideal-cut-diamond
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-flourescence *



Your best bet is to drop down to H color and raise your clarity to SI1 (eyeclean). And to drop in size to a diamond about 1.7 carats so that you can get a diamond that is really going to shine, be durable for every day wear, and be of a quality that you will be proud of. If you can find that in a 60/60 stone with good angles, and a strong blue fluorescence to discount the price, without the stone being over blue then... even better.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

I don't know what your budget is (but considering the I2 clarity coupled with the strong blue and the 60/60 cut all of which are huge discounts in a stone) I would feel safe to say that it's not 23k (which is what a 2.3 carat H Si1 stone with ideal light return would cost): http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-6233442-2.30-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-Clarity.aspx?sku=6233442&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

Hopefully your budget isn't completely unrealistic though, so you can get something like this:
http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-6257779-1.84-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-Clarity.aspx?sku=6257779&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

 

[lucida]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

By investment grade, I mean buying it below wholesale and the value rising for my kids to have later on. I need the value to appreciate. Also out of curiosity, why do you mean to put it in a safe? Wearing it won't decrease the value right? I want to enjoy wearing it.

I will stay away from this diamond too, even though the seller is insisting that there's nothing visible to the naked eye and that it's not milky at all.

I am aware of the HCA, as I said the result was excellent with a 1.2 with this so this is what threw me off. The price was $9k. Would a GIA I2 be equivalent to an EGL New York SI2?

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

By investment grade, I mean buying it below wholesale and the value rising for my kids to have later on. I need the value to appreciate. Also out of curiosity, why do you mean to put it in a safe? Wearing it won't decrease the value right? I want to enjoy wearing it.

Again, you are only showcasing your lack of knowledge. And that is a good thing because this is the place to do it, so we can help you get more educated!! What are you are describing is not investment quality. You are talking about a good value on pricing for an heirloom quality piece.

You aren't going to get a diamond below wholesale. Not unless you buy second hand. And there's nothing wrong with that, and in fact it's a great way to get a fantastic value. But that's not what you are talking about here

Any wholesaler who sells in single quantities to joe public (YOU) is not a wholesaler and is a retailer. So they are lying to you. And any dealer who claims to be selling a single quantity stone to you and claims it is below wholesale is frankly lying to you.

As for wearing it yes. Wearing diamonds can devalue you them. You wear them on your hands where you can chip, crack, damage your stone. If you get a FL stone you can easily devalue it to IF clarity if you wear it.

This is the closest "COMPARABLE" I could find (most reputable jewelers don't stock I-2 diamonds):
http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-6332365-2.22-carat-Round-diamond-G-color-I1-clarity.aspx G color GIA 3x like yours. Also a 60/60 stone. It doesn't have the Strong Blue the I2 does. SO I would expect the stone above to be considerably cheaper given the clarity and the fluorescence.

9K is probably retail value for that. So you aren't getting a steal.

Because honestly, a reputable jeweler wouldn't even STOCK that stone. Let alone but it forward as a reasonable stone for consideration.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

I will stay away from this diamond too, even though the seller is insisting that there's nothing visible to the naked eye and that it's not milky at all.

HCA is good on the stone. It's a 60/60 which is why the crown is low.

Look if you want to seriously consider the stone, have the dealer send it to Niel: http://www.americangemregistry.com/ YOU would pay for the appraisal (that is KEY).


And Neil can tell you if you have the 1 in a million great I2 stone AND he can take a idealscope of it.

That is the ONLY way you should consider the stone.

 

[lucida]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Yes I am obviously not an expert that's why I'm posting my questions here.
I have looked at AGS too. You prefer AGS over GIA? Is AGS stricter on the grading than GIA? I have one that I'm looking at that's why.Thanks again for your honesty.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Regarding your repeated EGL question. I posted a link for you about EGL. I have no idea what the 'conversion' for the EGL stone to the GIA clarity would be. If you had read the link I posted for you would realize that there is no "conversion' from EGL to USA. EGL particularly any of the international labs, are completely unreliable. And the ones in the US have issues as well. The only way to find out what GIA would grade that stone is to send it to GIA. EGL's complete unreliability makes it impossible to "covert" from EGL to GIA.

As for your other questions. Please learn to use the search function at the top right hand side of your screen. My job is to help you help yourself. So... this is the helping yourself part of things. This site has a ton of knowledge and I've hand held you a lot already. So from here... you need to learn to help yourself a bit. Do a search for "AGS GIA reliability" at the search and see 100's of other threads on here have to say.

Regarding wearing diamonds. Just stop thinking of the diamond as an investment. It's a poor investment. But it is a wonderful heirloom.

On the plus side at I2 clarity you really only have "up" to go. Short of cracking the thing you aren't going to devalue it much in terms of clarity. Just insure it well (Jewelers Mutual is what we recommend, or if you prefer a rider on your homeowners, but those are usually not as good) and enjoy wearing it. That's what we all do.

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

By investment grade, I mean buying it below wholesale and the value rising for my kids to have later on. I need the value to appreciate. Also out of curiosity, why do you mean to put it in a safe? Wearing it won't decrease the value right? I want to enjoy wearing it.

I will stay away from this diamond too, even though the seller is insisting that there's nothing visible to the naked eye and that it's not milky at all.

I am aware of the HCA, as I said the result was excellent with a 1.2 with this so this is what threw me off. The price was $9k. Would a GIA I2 be equivalent to an EGL New York SI2?

Even if you could buy it below wholesale (you can not unless you are buying from a private vendor, vendors in the trade do not sell below wholesale and expect to be in the trade long, they will be bankrupt quickly) you will find that such a stone is a very hard sell when it comes time to sell it.

I, and other members of the trade, are still seeing packages of diamonds that were bought as investments in the late 70s and very early 1980 in sealed packages.

Even after all of the growth that diamonds have had, they are still not worth the inflated prices that they were sold for.

I looked at Rap and found a 2.26 G-I1 for 7124 and a 2.21 G-I2 for $7731 at Internet retail pricing, so I am underwhelmed at the offer to sell you one below wholesale for just under $9000.

In any case, this is the wrong way to buy diamonds for "investment" purposes. Let's say that thirty years from now the true wholesale value of this diamond is $15,000. It will still be a lifeless lump of crystallized carbon that nobody in their right mind will want at any price. Who then shall your heirs, who know even less about diamonds that you currently do, sell it to?

The only real way to "invest" in diamonds is to become part of the chain of supply. That will require starting capital that is many times what you are willing to spend. Since you are going to be buying this diamond to use and enjoy and pass on to your heirs, PLEASE SPEND THE MONEY ON SOMETHING THAT WILL BE BEAUTIFUL AND THAT CAN BE ENJOYED BY YOU UNTIL IT IS PASSED ON, AND THEM AFTER IT IS RECEIVED.

Oh, sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but I mean it to. You are about to make a serious mistake with that diamond, and with any diamond if you are buying it with the idea that your heirs are going to get rich from it.

Wink

P.S. I think the seller is either lying to you or knows nothing about diamonds. Both are bad things.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

lol Wink tell us how you really feel, but I agree with every word.

 

[Sunstorm]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

ROFL, great replies! We are not trying to make fun of you though OP but do you realize how many times I get calls like the following:

I am your friend, you know you can probably do me a favor, I want a great deal, can you get me a diamond that is a great investment, preferably high white, great cut, good clarity, ah and somewhere about 50% of the wholesale value?

You have to be realistic, sometimes there are good "deals" to be had but certainly not with an I2 with clouds not shown and strong blue fluor potentially causing a problem too. You can get second hand diamonds at the lowest prices usually (auctions, consignment places, etc.) and though some I truly love, I am not sure they are necessarily the best "deals". That really depends on what the word "deal" means to you. To me as a private diamond owner too it means a diamond that makes my heart beat faster, something truly awe-inspiring because of the cut, the color, etc., etc., at a fair price but fair price is the key because no honest dealer can give you better than that or they would be out of business. The rest will sell you substandard stones at a price that not a single person will pay you for it later and not even significantly less.

Bottomline is, if you buy something truly breathtaking then it will be the best investment as your children will not look at the diamond and say yuck, I never want to wear this ugly stone and then they cannot even sell it as there is practically no market for I2s in jewelry. Instead they will feel thrilled and honored and it will serve as a beautiful memory or the very worst case scenario would be if they did not want to have a diamond as an heirloom they can still put it on the second hand market for sale and get something hopefully fair for it and they can instead buy something they enjoy (but hopefully the latter would not be the case).

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Heed assistance to buy - GIA certified diamond, but I2 c

Okay so. AGS Round Brilliants are only really worth looking at if they have the light performance rating included, and that light performance grade is 0 or 1. Otherwise stick to GIA.

Is you budget 9k? Or is it higher and you were just lured by this stone?

This is what I'd buy for 9-10K.
Round: MRB GIA Ex/Ex H-I Si1 (eyeclean) HCA lower than 2 and from a vendor (like Wink at High Performance Diamonds) who provides an idealscope image.

Emerald cut-- something like these:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/emerald-cut/1.51-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-sku-319053

Oval Cut-- something like this:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/1.40-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-251219