Hearts and IdealScope Images NOT AVAILABLE - Can you be certain these angles will produce the image

[GDTRFB]

Starting a new thread from an earlier one discussing a potential stone I am looking at. My retailer (DS in Chicago) is telling me that this stone on their site is from a vendor that does not have the capability to produce images for me. They also threatened me with their 10% off the setting going away but its honiored if I move forward today - pisses me off because I''ve read that about them so many times...

Anyway...

They sent me angle ranges that they said guarantee perfect IdealScope images and H&A images as long as the stone is within these ranges:


PA 40.6-40.9
CA 34.0-34.9
T% 55-58
D% (a function of t/ca/g/pa but generally 60-62%)
ST 50-55
LH 76-80

*ANGLES*

BUT... If the PA is a tenth lower (40.5) it''s ok if the CA range is higher...34.5 to 35.5
AND... If the PA is a tenth higher (41.0) it''s ok if the CA range is lower...33.5-34.5

Basically for every shift in PA by 0.1 degree I''d adjust the CA range by 0.5 degree...and PA under 40.5 and over 41.0 is getting into dodgy areas.

*TABLE*

IF...table is 59-61 and PA is 41.0 or 41.2 the diamond could be nice if CA is 33.0-33.5 (but it is then a 60/60 make - a different look than the 55-57 table H&A we deal with - needing longer lower halves...very bright but not as fiery).

IF...table is in the low 50s the crown is going to be much higher. Need more details on these, but they can resemble transitional or antique cuts depending on the details."


Is is safe to assume this is correct? And here are my stone details that all fall within these ranges (although barely for some):

5.72*5.76*3.50
Depth% 61
Table% 58
CA 34
PA 40.6 or 40.8 (hard to read the cert)
Cutlet None


Oh yeah, cannot see the stone unless it''s purchased from the vendor!

Please let me know your thoughts on the issue of not being able to see the images and whether or not the claim that these ranges always produce near perfect images.

 

[stone-cold11]

I would say they are talking crap. Angles are average and would not guarantee anything with regards to optical symmetry. And since they are averages, depending on how each facets angles, you can get the the extreme range just lining up with each other and gets you leakage.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/17/2009 11:26:41 AM
Author:GDTRFB



They sent me angle ranges that they said guarantee perfect IdealScope images and H&A images as long as the stone is within these ranges:

That is total BS.
That combined with the hard sell I would move on to another vendor.

 

[strmrdr]

btw what is the full name of the vendor?

 

[Lorelei]

 

[GDTRFB]

Ahhh, this sucks!! How can a retailer offer stones but not be able to get all the info? Why would anyone do business with them? I suppose most people simply trust the stone is a great one considering they all the look great to me. I am sure glad I found this place.

I wanted this to work out with this retailer since they''re in my backyard pretty much - lifetime trade up, lifetime re-sizing, lifetime cleaning, etc., etc.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 9/17/2009 11:26:41 AM
Author:GDTRFB
They sent me angle ranges that they said guarantee perfect IdealScope images and H&A images as long as the stone is within these ranges:

PA 40.6-40.9
CA 34.0-34.9
T% 55-58
D% (a function of t/ca/g/pa but generally 60-62%)
ST 50-55
LH 76-80

*ANGLES*

If you''ve got the $$$ I''ve got a bridge in the desert that I''d like to sell

 

[John P]

They sent me angle ranges that they said guarantee perfect IdealScope images and H&A images as long as the stone is within these ranges:


PA 40.6-40.9
CA 34.0-34.9
T% 55-58
D% (a function of t/ca/g/pa but generally 60-62%)
ST 50-55
LH 76-80

*ANGLES*

BUT... If the PA is a tenth lower (40.5) it's ok if the CA range is higher...34.5 to 35.5
AND... If the PA is a tenth higher (41.0) it's ok if the CA range is lower...33.5-34.5

Basically for every shift in PA by 0.1 degree I'd adjust the CA range by 0.5 degree...and PA under 40.5 and over 41.0 is getting into dodgy areas.

*TABLE*

IF...table is 59-61 and PA is 41.0 or 41.2 the diamond could be nice if CA is 33.0-33.5 (but it is then a 60/60 make - a different look than the 55-57 table H&A we deal with - needing longer lower halves...very bright but not as fiery).

IF...table is in the low 50s the crown is going to be much higher. Need more details on these, but they can resemble transitional or antique cuts depending on the details.'

The text in red is the only incorrect data.

The notes below that are quite sound in terms of finding attractive RB candidates of a variety of possibilities. In fact think I know who originally penned them

... if so they were intended for general use. Specific results and imagery depend on far more than averages.

You may want to ask them to re-visit this. Forward this thread to them. Dealers are human, and if this is the DS I know they are stand-up people. They also deal with at least one diamond cutter who provides H&A, IS, ASET, MagView and sometimes Belgian Beer...

If it is not the DS I know I'd still give them a chance to explain. Either way let us know how it goes.

 

[Allison D.]

John''s right; the only ''overstatement'' is the assertion that these proportions *guarantee* IS results or H&A patterns.

The data given to you is commonly held to be the ''safe zone'' in which to find top-make candidates; it''s a great starting point. However, the presence of the crisp, uniform H&A pattern that H&A authorities would consider authentic (i.e. meeting the rigid standards defined within the PS tutorial) can only be determined through an H&A viewer.

This authentic H&A pattern requires craftsmanship and additional attention to detail to achieve. While many well-cut stones end up having a semblance of the pattern as a by-product of the cut parameters, such patterns often aren''t nearly as crisp and uniform as those produced when a cutter intends to achieve the H&A pattern and prioritizes that craftsmanship while cutting.

As far as not being able to get images up front, that''s not uncommon when you work with brokered stones. Dealers often don''t supply those images to retailers, so vendors often produce them for you once they get the stone inhouse. If your vendor doesn''t have the equipment to produce those for some reason, you can use an appraiser who does have those tools at hand to provide those images as well as to help you evalute the stone. Just make sure to negotiate a reasonable enough return period with your vendor to allow you the needed time to get that appraiser evalution.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 9/17/2009 1:36:39 PM
Author: John Pollard

They sent me angle ranges that they said guarantee perfect IdealScope images and H&A images as long as the stone is within these ranges:

PA 40.6-40.9
CA 34.0-34.9
T% 55-58
D% (a function of t/ca/g/pa but generally 60-62%)
ST 50-55
LH 76-80

*ANGLES*

BUT... If the PA is a tenth lower (40.5) it''s ok if the CA range is higher...34.5 to 35.5
AND... If the PA is a tenth higher (41.0) it''s ok if the CA range is lower...33.5-34.5

Basically for every shift in PA by 0.1 degree I''d adjust the CA range by 0.5 degree...and PA under 40.5 and over 41.0 is getting into dodgy areas.

*TABLE*

IF...table is 59-61 and PA is 41.0 or 41.2 the diamond could be nice if CA is 33.0-33.5 (but it is then a 60/60 make - a different look than the 55-57 table H&A we deal with - needing longer lower halves...very bright but not as fiery).

IF...table is in the low 50s the crown is going to be much higher. Need more details on these, but they can resemble transitional or antique cuts depending on the details.''

The text in red is the only incorrect data.

The text in red is the issue... And as I understand it, this is also the statement that GDTRFB is concerned with. Such blanket statements by dealers damage the integrity of the Hearts & Arrows round brilliant ideal cut market by diluting it by allowing consumers to (wrongly) believe that the proportions alone define whether a diamond does nor does not exhibit a crisp and complete pattern of Hearts & Arrows and the FACT is that the proportions are only part of the equation. Maybe the dealer misunderstands the concept or maybe GDTRFB misunderstood the dealer, either way the statement is inaccurate and that is what I am addressing.

IMO "This diamond is Hearts & Arrows" must be backed up with proof; either by way of showing the actual diamond as seen through a Gems Fantasy Scope; or by a photograph of the actual diamond as seen through a Gems Fantasy Scope. "This diamond is Hearts & Arrows because it has proportions within this range" is bunk and every legitimate H&A dealer knows it because we have plenty of photographs of non-H&A quality diamonds with proportions within the range specified above... Heck, every one of the non-H&A, this isn''t H&A, photographs that appear on our H&A tutorial page have proportions within the range stated and they''re obviously not H&A.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/17/2009 2:12:11 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 9/17/2009 1:36:39 PM
Author: John Pollard

They sent me angle ranges that they said guarantee perfect IdealScope images and H&A images as long as the stone is within these ranges:

PA 40.6-40.9
CA 34.0-34.9
T% 55-58
D% (a function of t/ca/g/pa but generally 60-62%)
ST 50-55
LH 76-80

*ANGLES*

BUT... If the PA is a tenth lower (40.5) it''s ok if the CA range is higher...34.5 to 35.5
AND... If the PA is a tenth higher (41.0) it''s ok if the CA range is lower...33.5-34.5

Basically for every shift in PA by 0.1 degree I''d adjust the CA range by 0.5 degree...and PA under 40.5 and over 41.0 is getting into dodgy areas.

*TABLE*

IF...table is 59-61 and PA is 41.0 or 41.2 the diamond could be nice if CA is 33.0-33.5 (but it is then a 60/60 make - a different look than the 55-57 table H&A we deal with - needing longer lower halves...very bright but not as fiery).

IF...table is in the low 50s the crown is going to be much higher. Need more details on these, but they can resemble transitional or antique cuts depending on the details.''

The text in red is the only incorrect data.

The text in red is the issue... And as I understand it, this is also the statement that GDTRFB is concerned with. Such blanket statements by dealers damage the integrity of the Hearts & Arrows round brilliant ideal cut market by diluting it by allowing consumers to (wrongly) believe that the proportions alone define whether a diamond does nor does not exhibit a crisp and complete pattern of Hearts & Arrows and the FACT is that the proportions are only part of the equation. Maybe the dealer misunderstands the concept or maybe GDTRFB misunderstood the dealer, either way the statement is inaccurate and that is what I am addressing.

IMO ''This diamond is Hearts & Arrows'' must be backed up with proof; either by way of showing the actual diamond as seen through a Gems Fantasy Scope; or by a photograph of the actual diamond as seen through a Gems Fantasy Scope. ''This diamond is Hearts & Arrows because it has proportions within this range'' is bunk and every legitimate H&A dealer knows it because we have plenty of photographs of non-H&A quality diamonds with proportions within the range specified above... Heck, every one of the non-H&A, this isn''t H&A, photographs that appear on our H&A tutorial page have proportions within the range stated and they''re obviously not H&A.

I have to agree with Todd on this.

However, if it is the DS that John thinks it is, I know that they have people capable of judging correctly if the diamond is or is not H&A when it arrives in house. Perhaps they should send a viewing device to the wholesaler and let them know that if the diamond arrives and it is NOT a TRUE H&A by the definitions posted in the Journal here that it will be returned to the vendor without payment. That way they can encourage their vendor to enter the current generation of diamond dealers.

Wink

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/17/2009 2:12:11 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 9/17/2009 1:36:39 PM
Author: John Pollard

They sent me angle ranges that they said guarantee perfect IdealScope images and H&A images

The text in red is the only incorrect data.

The text in red is the issue...

The text in red is the issue for me too.

 

[GDTRFB]

Thanks for chiming in everyone!

OK, so it''s normal for a retailer to have a vendor with stones they are selling where they cannot get the images for until they get the stone in house, but they can''t get the stone in house until it''s paid for?

I just can''t imagine paying for the stone just to get it in. I suppose that is why they say the price is ''cheaper''.

 

[denverappraiser]

There are plenty of vendors who can and do generate their own images on stones that are owned by someone else and that they get in to try and sell. As mentioned above, there are also suppliers who include this sort of information in the data they give to their dealers. It’s up to the vendor to decide if they want to charge for this, some do and some don’t, but it’s simply not correct to say it isn’t possible. There are also outside services like some of the independent appraisers who can do this either for the jeweler before they deliver it or for you between the time when the stone arrives and when you have to make the final commitment to it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[GDTRFB]

The text in red is the only incorrect data.

The notes below that are quite sound in terms of finding attractive RB candidates of a variety of possibilities. In fact think I know who originally penned them ... if so they were intended for general use. Specific results and imagery depend on far more than averages.

You may want to ask them to re-visit this. Forward this thread to them. Dealers are human, and if this is the DS I know they are stand-up people. They also deal with at least one diamond cutter who provides H&A, IS, ASET, MagView and sometimes Belgian Beer...

If it is not the DS I know I''d still give them a chance to explain. Either way let us know how it goes.

John

Well, today they have said they just got notice of a stone that is on its way back from the AGS lab, cut in Belgium (the cutter you mentioned above (Infinity stone), John?), .74 F/SI1. Images are on their way.

I suppose this is going to be a great freakin'' stone???

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/18/2009 11:25:04 AM
Author: GDTRFB

The text in red is the only incorrect data.


The notes below that are quite sound in terms of finding attractive RB candidates of a variety of possibilities. In fact think I know who originally penned them ... if so they were intended for general use. Specific results and imagery depend on far more than averages.


You may want to ask them to re-visit this. Forward this thread to them. Dealers are human, and if this is the DS I know they are stand-up people. They also deal with at least one diamond cutter who provides H&A, IS, ASET, MagView and sometimes Belgian Beer...


If it is not the DS I know I''d still give them a chance to explain. Either way let us know how it goes.


John

Well, today they have said they just got notice of a stone that is on its way back from the AGS lab, cut in Belgium (the cutter you mentioned above (Infinity stone), John?), .74 F/SI1. Images are on their way.


I suppose this is going to be a great freakin'' stone???

yes it will be if its an Infinity but you sound very angry and might be much better off moving on and or cooling off some first and trying later.
It is not a good idea to do business when angry with someone your angry with.
Will it make you happy if it is a very well cut diamond or are you going to be angry every time you see it?

 

[GDTRFB]

Actually not angry at all! If anything, frustrated at myself for now having to make such a difficult decision! I would much rather go local, especially when I am going to have a custom bezel so I can see it before it''s made and have the peace of mind that they are a b&m I can go to easily if anything is wrong, etc.

 

[stone-cold11]

If it is an Infinity, it will be a good stone, H&A and all that. But is it an Infinity stone? Ask them for the AGS report number.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/18/2009 11:45:54 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/18/2009 11:25:04 AM
Author: GDTRFB

The text in red is the only incorrect data.


The notes below that are quite sound in terms of finding attractive RB candidates of a variety of possibilities. In fact think I know who originally penned them ... if so they were intended for general use. Specific results and imagery depend on far more than averages.


You may want to ask them to re-visit this. Forward this thread to them. Dealers are human, and if this is the DS I know they are stand-up people. They also deal with at least one diamond cutter who provides H&A, IS, ASET, MagView and sometimes Belgian Beer...


If it is not the DS I know I''d still give them a chance to explain. Either way let us know how it goes.


John

Well, today they have said they just got notice of a stone that is on its way back from the AGS lab, cut in Belgium (the cutter you mentioned above (Infinity stone), John?), .74 F/SI1. Images are on their way.


I suppose this is going to be a great freakin'' stone???

Infinity are superbly cut h&a diamonds, you won''t go wrong with one of those - just check with the seller that this is in fact an Infinity brand, I do know Dimend Scaasi sell them so it probably is.

 

[GDTRFB]

They asked for a scan of the report ''from Belgium''...waiting...

 

[GDTRFB]

delete