He doesn't understand

[mariewest]

I have been on the list for about two years. Started at 120-something and now am at #9. SO and I got into a fight tonight because I was upset at how he brushed off a comment I made when I asked him about getting married. He doesn't understand why I'm upset that after four years of dating and 3 years of waiting, that I'm not satisfied with just dating/living together. He says I've been obsessed with wedding planning, which I admit that I have been. Stupid native me thought that maybe a proposal would come by the end of the year and in a wedding next summer wasn't completely realistic. Well he told me tonight that a wedding next year won't happen. I guess I'll just have to wait around for and see what happen. Perhaps I'll one day again ask to be back on the list, but for now I think it is better if I give my spot up. Thanks.

 

[suchende]

I am sorry you're struggling right now, mariewest. If you two aren't really at the right point in life to get married, taking a step back from wedding/engagement stuff will probably help you stay sane. Best of luck.

 

[iugurl]

So you were hoping to get engaged in 2011 and married in 2012? I see he mentioned the wedding won't happen when you had hoped/expected, but did he mention the engagement?

 

[swingirl]

If he has all the benefits of being married without the entanglements--why should he get married? 4 years together and he won't even discuss it? I think his non-action is your answer. Time to move out and live on your own and possible find someone who wants to get married, if that is what you want.

 

[Natylad]

If he has all the benefits of being married without the entanglements--why should he get married? 4 years together and he won't even discuss it? I think his non-action is your answer. Time to move out and live on your own and possible find someone who wants to get married, if that is what you want.

Big ditto...

 

[missydebby]

If he has all the benefits of being married without the entanglements--why should he get married? 4 years together and he won't even discuss it? I think his non-action is your answer. Time to move out and live on your own and possible find someone who wants to get married, if that is what you want.

Big ditto...

Hard but true. Ditto *hug*

 

[Italiahaircolor]

If he has all the benefits of being married without the entanglements--why should he get married? 4 years together and he won't even discuss it? I think his non-action is your answer. Time to move out and live on your own and possible find someone who wants to get married, if that is what you want.

As much as it hurts, it's probably the most sage advice you'll ever receive in regards to your issue.

I once read a book called "He's Just Not That Into You"...the funny thing was, before that book I looked at men and interpreted their actions like I would have a female friends when in reality, that's not the case at all. The book opened my eyes to a lot of things I didn't want to admit to myself about boy's and the way they act. I think, in your position, you should pick the book up and give it a read.

I am so sorry that you're hurt, and I can't even begin to imagine what a blow this must be after waiting and hoping and hoping and waiting. It's not just a "no" from your boyfriend but a goodbye to all things you've been planning. It sucks and I'm sorry.

The thing is, if a man wants to marry you...he will. Nothing will stop him. And if he doesn't want to marry you...he won't. And nothing will make him. 4 years or 14 years, the waiting game is totally your choice. It kills me when I see women release their control to a "timeline" ... a relationship has to work for BOTH people, not simply one person. If you're not happy with this stand still, then put your shoes on and start moving forward with your life. You can do that much without his permission. If he's the one, he'll get off his butt and start running after you...and if he's not, then you'll just be walking towards someone who is a better fit for you.

Again, I'm sorry and I hope you find the peace and comfort you need ((hugs))

 

[katamari]

I disagree that it is time to pack, but I do believe it is time for couples counseling. It's not about "buying the cow" or not. It is about operating as partners in a way that puts the partnership as the central endeavor. You may still have a shared vision of what your future looks like, relationship wise, but if he is unable to understand why marriage is important to you and you are unable to understand why it is not for him, you really need to talk it out. A professional may be necessary to moderate that discussion. (((HUGS!)))

 

[RobertaB]

Time to move out. If he liked it then he should have put a ring on it! I say, give someone else a chance to deserve you. Don't waste your life with a man who doesn't love you enough to want to marry you before anyone else steals you away. You deserve the best not someone who is point blank telling you that he isn't marrying you. I know he hasn't said "never" but his actions are showing he's not that concerned. Pack up and start fresh.

 

[suchende]

IIRC mariewest and her BF are both still in school and are under 25. I think it's a little harsh to expect him to propose before he gets himself a little established in the world. In my experience, men don't really feel ready to settle until they start to make a little money and feel secure in their career. To make an egregious generalization, for men, it's more about the right time, and for women, it's all about the right person.

My boyfriend has said he won't be ready to marry me until he's ready to buy a house. For him, it's the hallmark of being prepared to support a family. While I don't totally see it that way, and could probably be talked into a courthouse wedding tomorrow, I can respect his perspective of feeling like he should, as a man, have some things settled before he takes on (what he perceives to be) the obligations of starting a family.

I haven't always been so understanding of this, though. I've been hanging around LIW through 2 previous relationships where I was a little more trigger-happy. This is just what I learned from those experiences.

 

[iugurl]

IIRC mariewest and her BF are both still in school and are under 25.

My boyfriend has said he won't be ready to marry me until he's ready to buy a house.

When you say "under 25" what does that mean? 18 or 24? There is a difference. And also your boyfriend has COMMUNICATED why he does not want to get married yet. It does not seem as though her boyfriend is communicating why, possibly when etc. It is a good sign that your boyfriend will talk to you about it, if he was unwilling to discuss it, wouldn't that concern you? Would you still be so "understanding?"

 

[suchende]

IIRC mariewest and her BF are both still in school and are under 25.

My boyfriend has said he won't be ready to marry me until he's ready to buy a house.

When you say "under 25" what does that mean? 18 or 24? There is a difference. And also your boyfriend has COMMUNICATED why he does not want to get married yet. It does not seem as though her boyfriend is communicating why, possibly when etc. It is a good sign that your boyfriend will talk to you about it, if he was unwilling to discuss it, wouldn't that concern you? Would you still be so "understanding?"

Honestly? No, I wouldn't be, because when I was in a similar position, I wasn't. And I really, really wish I had been, because I wasted tears and time being upset about something that, in hindsight, was pretty reasonable. I regret way, way more time I wasted being upset than time I "wasted" dating someone I didn't marry, because I grew/changed/learned in those relationships, but I can't say anything good came out of being upset that my exes didn't give me a timeline, or didn't want to talk about the future we don't have together now.

 

[ChloeTheGreat]

I'm sorry you are in this situation. While I don't have any advice to give, I just wanted to say that I hope you are able to figure out what's right for you, whether it involves "waiting" or not. Hugs!

 

[RobertaB]

IIRC mariewest and her BF are both still in school and are under 25.

My boyfriend has said he won't be ready to marry me until he's ready to buy a house.

When you say "under 25" what does that mean? 18 or 24? There is a difference. And also your boyfriend has COMMUNICATED why he does not want to get married yet. It does not seem as though her boyfriend is communicating why, possibly when etc. It is a good sign that your boyfriend will talk to you about it, if he was unwilling to discuss it, wouldn't that concern you? Would you still be so "understanding?"

Honestly? No, I wouldn't be, because when I was in a similar position, I wasn't. And I really, really wish I had been, because I wasted tears and time being upset about something that, in hindsight, was pretty reasonable. I regret way, way more time I wasted being upset than time I "wasted" dating someone I didn't marry, because I grew/changed/learned in those relationships, but I can't say anything good came out of being upset that my exes didn't give me a timeline, or didn't want to talk about the future we don't have together now.

So do you regret not being with your ex now or are you glad you moved on even if in hindsight you think the reason wasn't good? Because she is giving up an opportunity to find someone awesome in order to stay in a relationship that seems not to be heading toward marriage. If it's just their age, you'd think he would say that.

 

[suchende]

So do you regret not being with your ex now or are you glad you moved on even if in hindsight you think the reason wasn't good? Because she is giving up an opportunity to find someone awesome in order to stay in a relationship that seems not to be heading toward marriage. If it's just their age, you'd think he would say that.

If she doesn't think he's "awesome" anymore because he's not ready to move forward the way she wants, then yeah, staying with him is holding her back.

I don't regret the time I spent with my exes because those relationships were rewarding in and of themselves (paid dividends every day), independent of any "investment" towards the future. If you're not enjoying the present, then of course it's not a good relationship. Thinking that things will get better just because you have a ring or a piece of paper is, well, unrealistic. If you are enjoying each day with that person, and you're young and unestablished and it's not really the time to get married, then just enjoy the present.

I really regret not doing that myself, because I tortured myself and my exes for absolutely nothing. Now a year into my current relationship, I am obviously still lurking around LIW, but the sense of urgency is totally gone, because I've come to terms with the reality that my itchy ring finger just wasn't compatible with where I was/am in my life in terms of it being appropriate to get married. I wish I'd had this peace a long time ago.

 

[RobertaB]

So do you regret not being with your ex now or are you glad you moved on even if in hindsight you think the reason wasn't good? Because she is giving up an opportunity to find someone awesome in order to stay in a relationship that seems not to be heading toward marriage. If it's just their age, you'd think he would say that.

If she doesn't think he's "awesome" anymore because he's not ready to move forward the way she wants, then yeah, staying with him is holding her back.

I don't regret the time I spent with my exes because those relationships were rewarding in and of themselves (paid dividends every day), independent of any "investment" towards the future. If you're not enjoying the present, then of course it's not a good relationship. Thinking that things will get better just because you have a ring or a piece of paper is, well, unrealistic. If you are enjoying each day with that person, and you're young and unestablished and it's not really the time to get married, then just enjoy the present.

I really regret not doing that myself, because I tortured myself and my exes for absolutely nothing. Now a year into my current relationship, I am obviously still lurking around LIW, but the sense of urgency is totally gone, because I've come to terms with the reality that my itchy ring finger just wasn't compatible with where I was/am in my life in terms of it being appropriate to get married. I wish I'd had this peace a long time ago.

But what I meant was do you regret that you are no longer with your ex now? Or are you glad you moved on even if you today feel less urgent about getting married? I think it's very normal to want to get married and if you aren't feeling that the other person wants to marry you, it's ok to move on.

 

[suchende]

But what I meant was do you regret that you are no longer with your ex now? Or are you glad you moved on even if you today feel less urgent about getting married? I think it's very normal to want to get married and if you aren't feeling that the other person wants to marry you, it's ok to move on.

Do I wish I were no longer with my ex? No, of course not, the relationship I am in now suits me and the place I am in in my life much better than that one would have. But I also don't wish I'd left a previous relationship because it wasn't marriage-track enough. I agree overall that you should move on if you're ready to get married and the other person just doesn't want to marry you, but that's not how I interpreted what mariewest has said about her relationship. It sounds like they both aren't totally in a place to get married, and that she was hoping he would want to get married ASAP after they're done with their educations, and that he'd rather wait longer than that, and also that he doesn't like her obsessing with weddings when they aren't all that close to being ready for marriage life-wise (neither of them, not just him). I don't wish I'd left a relationship I was in while still in school because my ex wasn't ready to get married right after we graduated, and I wish that I'd understood then that it wouldn't have been appropriate for us even if he had been.

The whole "finding the right guy" thing isn't a game of musical chairs. And even if it were, the music definitely doesn't stop in your mid-20s.

 

[swingirl]

After finding out OP and her SO are only 24 and in grad school, I have a different view. Mariewest, your lives are too unsettled to get engaged. And your obsession with getting engaged and married must be off-putting to a 24 year old guy who's still going to school. You both need some time to finish grad school, establish careers, save money, pay off student loans, etc. With the attitude you have now you are going to be miserable until you are on your honeymoon...and that's a long time away

 

[slg47]

After finding out OP and her SO are only 24 and in grad school, I have a different view. Mariewest, your lives are too unsettled to get engaged. And your obsession with getting engaged and married must be off-putting to a 24 year old guy who's still going to school. You both need some time to finish grad school, establish careers, save money, pay off student loans, etc. With the attitude you have now you are going to be miserable until you are on your honeymoon...and that's a long time away

yeah, I have to agree with this. I am 25 and in grad school, and in NO POSITION to buy anyone a ring. Perhaps have an honest talk with him about it, see how he feels...if he has reservations because he's not sure about you, that's one thing, but if he wants to wait until he is done with school and more financially stable, that certainly seems reasonable.

 

[rosetta]

Seriously, if someone wants to marry you, they will find some way.

Even if they have no money for a ring.

Even if they have no house.

Even if they have no job.

If you want to marry someone though they cannot give you a ring or a big fancy wedding, then you really want to marry this person. I would be hurt if my other half still didn't want to marry me. How much does a marriage license cost?

But if you want the bells whistles, then you gotta wait till he can get them.

If finances, job etc are not an issue, it would be a cold day in hell before I waited four years to propose.

 

[rosetta]

And 24 year old grad students get married all the time. Half my friends got married by 25.

I'm the slow poke (met my OH much later in life)

 

[chemgirl]

Regardless of age, I can see why he wouldn't want to be get married while they are both still in school. Grad students don't really make that much, and everything related to marriage is so expensive. I know it doesn't have to be, and that a marriage license and a courthouse wedding doesn't cost much, but he probably doesn't see this as an option. What he sees is his girlfriend looking at rings and bridal magazines. It must be stressfull for him. He's probably seeing it in terms of what he would have to save and what he would have to do to feel ready. Pricing out rings, bridal dresses, hall rental, flowers, photographer would be scary enough, but then there are other expectations like buying a house, a car, maybe having a kid. I don't want to be harsh, but I certainly could not afford that while I was in grad school. Heck, DH and I talk about wanting to go back for PhDs, but then we look at our mortgage, our car payments, insurance, property taxes, condo fees, retirement savings...we can't maintain any of that on what we would make in grad school (not that we need all of that stuff, but its really nice to have).

The graduate students at my old school used to go on strike every couple of years and demand higher pay and health benefits for family members. It was beyond annoying to me, since our hourly wage was actually very fair. We would get a lump sum for research, and then an hourly wage for teaching. The students who would picket were invariable married to other graduate students and generally had one child or more. They found it difficult to raise a family with their salaries. I always thought "geeze, you knew how much money you were making before made these life changing decisions. You went in to it with your eyes open, so don't strike and mess with my pay!" Maybe her boyfriend sees how difficult it would be, feels scared and upset that he can't provide what she wants, and shuts down whenever she brings it up.

Its really hard to know what's going on based on her post.

 

[RobertaB]

Regardless of age, I can see why he wouldn't want to be get married while they are both still in school. Grad students don't really make that much, and everything related to marriage is so expensive. I know it doesn't have to be, and that a marriage license and a courthouse wedding doesn't cost much, but he probably doesn't see this as an option. What he sees is his girlfriend looking at rings and bridal magazines. It must be stressfull for him. He's probably seeing it in terms of what he would have to save and what he would have to do to feel ready. Pricing out rings, bridal dresses, hall rental, flowers, photographer would be scary enough, but then there are other expectations like buying a house, a car, maybe having a kid. I don't want to be harsh, but I certainly could not afford that while I was in grad school. Heck, DH and I talk about wanting to go back for PhDs, but then we look at our mortgage, our car payments, insurance, property taxes, condo fees, retirement savings...we can't maintain any of that on what we would make in grad school (not that we need all of that stuff, but its really nice to have).

The graduate students at my old school used to go on strike every couple of years and demand higher pay and health benefits for family members. It was beyond annoying to me, since our hourly wage was actually very fair. We would get a lump sum for research, and then an hourly wage for teaching. The students who would picket were invariable married to other graduate students and generally had one child or more. They found it difficult to raise a family with their salaries. I always thought "geeze, you knew how much money you were making before made these life changing decisions. You went in to it with your eyes open, so don't strike and mess with my pay!" Maybe her boyfriend sees how difficult it would be, feels scared and upset that he can't provide what she wants, and shuts down whenever she brings it up.

Its really hard to know what's going on based on her post.

Here! Here! I agree with all you said. Also, do you think that it is a stressful time to be starting a marriage when you are still getting a degree? I think it would be really hard to be doing both at once.

 

[chemgirl]

Regardless of age, I can see why he wouldn't want to be get married while they are both still in school. Grad students don't really make that much, and everything related to marriage is so expensive. I know it doesn't have to be, and that a marriage license and a courthouse wedding doesn't cost much, but he probably doesn't see this as an option. What he sees is his girlfriend looking at rings and bridal magazines. It must be stressfull for him. He's probably seeing it in terms of what he would have to save and what he would have to do to feel ready. Pricing out rings, bridal dresses, hall rental, flowers, photographer would be scary enough, but then there are other expectations like buying a house, a car, maybe having a kid. I don't want to be harsh, but I certainly could not afford that while I was in grad school. Heck, DH and I talk about wanting to go back for PhDs, but then we look at our mortgage, our car payments, insurance, property taxes, condo fees, retirement savings...we can't maintain any of that on what we would make in grad school (not that we need all of that stuff, but its really nice to have).

The graduate students at my old school used to go on strike every couple of years and demand higher pay and health benefits for family members. It was beyond annoying to me, since our hourly wage was actually very fair. We would get a lump sum for research, and then an hourly wage for teaching. The students who would picket were invariable married to other graduate students and generally had one child or more. They found it difficult to raise a family with their salaries. I always thought "geeze, you knew how much money you were making before made these life changing decisions. You went in to it with your eyes open, so don't strike and mess with my pay!" Maybe her boyfriend sees how difficult it would be, feels scared and upset that he can't provide what she wants, and shuts down whenever she brings it up.

Its really hard to know what's going on based on her post.

Here! Here! I agree with all you said. Also, do you think that it is a stressful time to be starting a marriage when you are still getting a degree? I think it would be really hard to be doing both at once.

For me, working is more stressfull than school ever was. I think a marriage during grad school can be done, but it requires very good communication and the realization (by both parties) that there will be a lot of sacrifice. If they are on the same page, then great, if they're not, then I think waiting is the best option.

 

[suchende]

For me, working is more stressfull than school ever was. I think a marriage during grad school can be done, but it requires very good communication and the realization (by both parties) that there will be a lot of sacrifice. If they are on the same page, then great, if they're not, then I think waiting is the best option.

I agree that working is more stressful (and time-consuming!) than grad school, but I also think that grad school is a transitional time. People change, people find out the career they thought they wanted, they don't want, or thought they'd get with their next degree, they can't. So much is in flux, I can see why someone, particularly someone who feels like they need to "provide," would not want to make a major change/commitment like marriage.

 

[slg47]

For me, working is more stressfull than school ever was. I think a marriage during grad school can be done, but it requires very good communication and the realization (by both parties) that there will be a lot of sacrifice. If they are on the same page, then great, if they're not, then I think waiting is the best option.

I agree that working is more stressful (and time-consuming!) than grad school, but I also think that grad school is a transitional time. People change, people find out the career they thought they wanted, they don't want, or thought they'd get with their next degree, they can't. So much is in flux, I can see why someone, particularly someone who feels like they need to "provide," would not want to make a major change/commitment like marriage.

honestly I think it depends on what field you are in, and how your advisor is. it is certainly possible that mariewest's BF has a small stipend and is working almost ALL the time. marie, maybe talk to him, see if he is on the same page about wanting to be with you, ask him about marriage, if he thinks you are headed toward that road, etc...

 

[diva rose]

There are some really good points here.

However I have to agree with the ladies about living together etc.
You don't have to break up with him but perhaps living apart might be a good idea.
If you live together and practically share everything...doesn't it feel like marriage anyways?
I mean, many couples don't get married but consider themselves as long term partners/de factos.

Living together takes effort and commitment. Sure you love each other but if he isn't commiting to marriage - why make him your number 1 focus and spend so much energy? You can still love each other and live apart. This may help you also with settling your emotions re: having to wait for proposal etc.

I have many friends who were in similar situations to you. Friends who were waiting years for their partners to finish school. The relationships that fail and ones that succeed - there were differences.

The ones that were successful - the guy did make a commitment. The ladies may not have recieved a ring, however they planned for the future. This including their studies, work, family etc. They also discussed marriage and the guys always knew the woman they were with was the one. Honestly, if you ask most men - they will tell you they knew their partner was the one within 1 year. It doesn't take a long time to figure out especially when you live together.

The ones that didn't work out - the ladies wanted to get married but the guy didn't make any commitment. They didn't talk about the future together. In fact, the men would avoid conversations and get frustrated around it. I remember specifically one case where the guy told my friend "I don't want to get married until I'm in my 30s." Same guy after breaking up with my friend, proposed to a most recent gf within a few months of courtship and he is not in his 30s btw.

Do I think he isn't sure you are the one? I don't know and I don't think anyone will know because we're not him.
However, I don't think you should revolve your time around this. Focus on your needs first.

 

[Indylady]

There are some really good points here.

However I have to agree with the ladies about living together etc.
You don't have to break up with him but perhaps living apart might be a good idea.
If you live together and practically share everything...doesn't it feel like marriage anyways?
I mean, many couples don't get married but consider themselves as long term partners/de factos.

..................
Focus on your needs first.

I agree entirely.

 

[chemgirl]

For me, working is more stressfull than school ever was. I think a marriage during grad school can be done, but it requires very good communication and the realization (by both parties) that there will be a lot of sacrifice. If they are on the same page, then great, if they're not, then I think waiting is the best option.

I agree that working is more stressful (and time-consuming!) than grad school, but I also think that grad school is a transitional time. People change, people find out the career they thought they wanted, they don't want, or thought they'd get with their next degree, they can't. So much is in flux, I can see why someone, particularly someone who feels like they need to "provide," would not want to make a major change/commitment like marriage.

honestly I think it depends on what field you are in, and how your advisor is. it is certainly possible that mariewest's BF has a small stipend and is working almost ALL the time. marie, maybe talk to him, see if he is on the same page about wanting to be with you, ask him about marriage, if he thinks you are headed toward that road, etc...

My graduate work was in engineering so I was including a stipend in my calculations. I don't know of anyone in my department with a stipend high enough to afford a lot of extras. We were able to pay our living expenses and tuition without taking out any loans, but it wasn't enough to save for a ring and a wedding.

Slg47, I do agree with you that she should have a frank talk about where they are headed. After 4 years and a move she needs to make sure she's not being taken advantage of.

ETA: I don't think grad school is easy...I think it also depends on your job once you get out. In my case, a weekly meeting with my supervisor and loads of lab hours was far less stressfull than having contractors yell at me on a daily basis.

 

[mariewest]

I just wanted to clarify that although we are both currently in graduate school, we will be done in May. I am not asking him to propose immediately, but I just wanted some sort of idea of whether this year would be a possibility. He still maintains that he DOES want to marry me, doesn't stay specifically that he is not ready, but I think that he does have other stuff going on that marriage is not a priority right now. I was just hoping for some understanding of what being in this limbo feels like, having little control over the next step in our lives. Some idea of a timeline would be nice, but he was not willing to discuss it. He is traditional in his thinking that the guy has to propose, with an expensive ring (although I found a ring I love that is less than $500), and has to be a big surprise. Some of you commented on the price of the wedding, and much of my wedding research was all based on DIY and how to reduce the cost to make it affordable, so I don't have unrealistic expectations on that front, and could afford half of the wedding right now. But I am going to chill out and worry about other things, like my thesis.