Has anyone ever deliberately bought a stone for a recut?

[madtrax]

I've seen some pretty unbelievable pictures of how some vendors can recut a stone and turn an absolute dog into something pretty special. An example can be found here:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-dog-to-delightful-another-excellent-brian-gavin-recut.191902/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-dog-to-delightful-another-excellent-brian-gavin-recut.191902/[/URL]

The price for a recut seems very reasonable. That got me thinking. Has anyone purposely bought a poorly cut stone at a significant discount because of the poor cut for the purpose of having it recut? It seems to me that for a larger diamond (1.75 carats and above), you may be able to save a good bit of money by buying a poor performer and having it recut. Obviously, you would have to anticipate the loss in weight from the recut and there is risk the diamond could be destroyed during the recut, but I'm wondering if it is a feasible, albeit potentially risky, strategy for getting a good deal. Thoughts?

 

[TC1987]

You'd have to know what you are doing. And have a good idea of how the proportions of the stone would change and how much weight would be lost. Type and location of inclusions is another issue that can be a dealbreaker. I already owned the diamonds, but I sent two to BGD for evaluation and one was judged too risky to recut due to inclusions too close to the surface.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I've seen some pretty unbelievable pictures of how some vendors can recut a stone and turn an absolute dog into something pretty special. An example can be found here:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-dog-to-delightful-another-excellent-brian-gavin-recut.191902/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-dog-to-delightful-another-excellent-brian-gavin-recut.191902/[/URL]

The price for a recut seems very reasonable. That got me thinking. Has anyone purposely bought a poorly cut stone at a significant discount because of the poor cut for the purpose of having it recut? It seems to me that for a larger diamond (1.75 carats and above), you may be able to save a good bit of money by buying a poor performer and having it recut. Obviously, you would have to anticipate the loss in weight from the recut and there is risk the diamond could be destroyed during the recut, but I'm wondering if it is a feasible, albeit potentially risky, strategy for getting a good deal. Thoughts?

It's done all the time in the trade. No reason a consumer can't play if you have the right connections and you are risk tolerant. There are various dangers and uncertainties, as you point out. But if you understand them fully and the risk/reward calculation has a big upside, why not?

Nobody should go into it lightly however. It's one thing if the stone you own needs to be re-cut or could benefit from a tuneup. It's another level to go out and buy a stone for the purpose of re-cutting.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Without the proper knowledge on how to buy a stone for re-cut, it's an incredibly risky move.
Although stones are recut by the trade, in my experience it's far more common that an older cut is made into a modern as opposed to recutting a more recently cut diamond.
Sure there's some bad cuts out there- but in many cases the badly cut stones out there were cut that way for a reason.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Without the proper knowledge on how to buy a stone for re-cut, it's an incredibly risky move.
Although stones are recut by the trade, in my experience it's far more common that an older cut is made into a modern as opposed to recutting a more recently cut diamond.
Sure there's some bad cuts out there- but in many cases the badly cut stones out there were cut that way for a reason.

I agree we each of these points.

Therefore, I would advise anyone considering this process to make sure you have full return privileges on the re-cut candidate. That way, when you get the consultation from the cutter and the prospects are not good, you can return the stone and look for another candidate.

 

[WinkHPD]

I agree with Texas Leaguer on this one.

If you can afford a total loss on the diamond, be our guest. It does not happen often, but it does happen, and the cutter accepts NO LIABILITY and you can not get insurance for it that I know of. (I reserve the right to be wrong, but even if you could it would be very expensive.)

I have personally done it, and made money most of the times. Once a feather kept opening up and the stone just got smaller and smaller until we finally gave up and had a pretty I1 to sell instead of a larger and pretty VS1.

I pouted for years. (This was also back in the 80's, long before most of you were born and WAY before the Internet was putting people all over the world together.)

Wink

P.S. When people bring diamonds to me for recutting, I am often advised by my cutter as to why it is a bad idea for that stone. Once you have bought the diamond is a BAD time to be finding that out.

P.P.S. I started this reply some time ago and I see that there are a couple of posts since the first one from Texas Leaguer that I was agreeing with. While I agree with his second post too, I think you will find it VERY hard to get a pawn shop to let you buy a diamond and return it after you have taken the time to get a consult.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Any diamond purchase needs to have a money back guarantee IMO.
Wink, you may have made money on re-cuts- but consumers have totally different considerations.
We had Paul re-cut a 2+ct diamond and the results were stunning- and our motivation was as a business, like you. The recut stone did gain value.
I suspect many of the PS regulars would prefer the CBi stone.
But many consumers may have chosen the "pre-recut" diamond and saved money, and gotten a larger stone. In other words, even if one can get an improvement in cut, it's not always a "slam dunk" for a consumer

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I agree with Texas Leaguer on this one.

If you can afford a total loss on the diamond, be our guest. It does not happen often, but it does happen, and the cutter accepts NO LIABILITY and you can not get insurance for it that I know of. (I reserve the right to be wrong, but even if you could it would be very expensive.)

I have personally done it, and made money most of the times. Once a feather kept opening up and the stone just got smaller and smaller until we finally gave up and had a pretty I1 to sell instead of a larger and pretty VS1.

I pouted for years. (This was also back in the 80's, long before most of you were born and WAY before the Internet was putting people all over the world together.)

Wink

P.S. When people bring diamonds to me for recutting, I am often advised by my cutter as to why it is a bad idea for that stone. Once you have bought the diamond is a BAD time to be finding that out.

P.P.S. I started this reply some time ago and I see that there are a couple of posts since the first one from Texas Leaguer that I was agreeing with. While I agree with his second post too, I think you will find it VERY hard to get a pawn shop to let you buy a diamond and return it after you have taken the time to get a consult.

Wink,
I think we in the trade have all had both good and bad outcomes with re-cuts. It reminds me a little of the stock market and buying individual stocks. You must be prepared for the stock to go to zero overnight or else you really have no business buying it. And investing in individual stocks requires that you know some things about that company as well as it's competitors. And that you have a solid strategy. If you don't want to spend the time researching those things then you are not really an investor- simply a gambler. And it doesn't take anything but money to play that game. And every once in a while you will get lucky!

 

[kenny]

I'm not disagreeing and suggesting layfolks jump into this.
But if you do, the following seems like the the first things to check when searching for recut candidates ...

Look at the diamond's side view.
Where did they put the girdle ... too high, too low, or just about right?

If the girdle is too high or too low you'll lose more weight than you would if it's closer to just right.

For example, a diamond with a very shallow crown had its girdle placed too high.
To get the desired crown and pavilion angles they'd have to effectively move the girdle down the old pavilion to where the diamond's cross section has a smaller diameter.

Second, I'd avoid very shallow diamonds because you'd have to polish away lots of material to get the right depth.
Third, I'd avoid very deep diamonds for the same reason.

IOW, look for candidates with depth and girdle location already close to ideal.

Again I'm not suggesting anyone enter into this risky business, but the above may help narrow down candidates for submission to an expert for consideration.

 

[chrono]

It sounds very similar to recutting coloured stones too; don't forget that inclusions can grow, and colour and clarity grading can change. Sometimes all goes well and the overall result is positive. Sometimes not and there is an overall drop in value, even after all the careful study.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great point Chrono- there are cases where imperfection can grow on the wheel- but of course it's sometimes its possible to polish out an imperfection near the surface- improving clarity grades.

Kenny's suggestions may make sense in some cases- however the subject is far to complex to boil it down to "look where the girdle is"
There's no workable standard for this.
It's simply not accurate to say a shallow crown is always negative, or that it implies bad girdle position.
We need to consider the shape of the diamond in question and many other variables.
For example, what works for a given round stone would be disaster for another given Emerald Cut stone.
All of this, and more, is why consumers are best advised to stay away from trying to buy stones with the intention of re-cut.

 

[cflutist]

It sounds very similar to recutting coloured stones too; don't forget that inclusions can grow, and colour and clarity grading can change. Sometimes all goes well and the overall result is positive. Sometimes not and there is an overall drop in value, even after all the careful study.

Richard Homer recut a "native" sapphire for me with positive results.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/an-amazing-sapphire-recut-by-richard-homer.19311/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/an-amazing-sapphire-recut-by-richard-homer.19311/[/URL]

 

[chrono]

And I've experienced, seen and was told by several other well known lapidaries about their disaster recuts. Most go well but who wants to be the one that doesn't go well? I've had several tweaked with great success. I've had one where the colour went south. I've had one where the inclusion grew so it went from a 2 ct stone to a 1 ct stone. All these were done with the consultation of the lapidary who studied the stone in hand first.

 

[WinkHPD]

It sounds very similar to recutting coloured stones too; don't forget that inclusions can grow, and colour and clarity grading can change. Sometimes all goes well and the overall result is positive. Sometimes not and there is an overall drop in value, even after all the careful study.

Welcome to our world!

I would like to respectfully ask,

Did the victories more than make up for the defeats?

I know they have for me as a tradesman, but I would love to know your feelings as a consumer.

Wink

 

[chrono]

Hi Wink!
I've experienced more victories than defeats but in spite of that, I still find it too risky for me as a consumer. I am only willing to risk low value stones. In the one case, it was a spectacular red spinel that went from over 2 carats to a low 1 carat so you know the drop in value was significant.

 

[WinkHPD]

It sounds very similar to recutting coloured stones too; don't forget that inclusions can grow, and colour and clarity grading can change. Sometimes all goes well and the overall result is positive. Sometimes not and there is an overall drop in value, even after all the careful study.

Richard Homer recut a "native" sapphire for me with positive results.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/an-amazing-sapphire-recut-by-richard-homer.19311/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/an-amazing-sapphire-recut-by-richard-homer.19311/[/URL]

Thank you for sharing that thread with us CFlutist. I really enjoyed seeing it again.

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

That was an amazing result cflutist!
DO you still have the stone?

 

[Texas Leaguer]

And I've experienced, seen and was told by several other well known lapidaries about their disaster recuts. Most go well but who wants to be the one that doesn't go well? I've had several tweaked with great success. I've had one where the colour went south. I've had one where the inclusion grew so it went from a 2 ct stone to a 1 ct stone. All these were done with the consultation of the lapidary who studied the stone in hand first.

This is critical to understand. Even the top cutters cannot predict with certainty what is going to happen on the wheel. So a consultation is still just an educated guess as to the outcome. You have to be accepting of whatever fate holds in store for the project. And you have to resist any temptation to blame the cutter for failures. You selected him for his skill and reputation. He is going to give it his best, but the rock sometimes has a different agenda!

 

[cflutist]

That was an amazing result cflutist!
DO you still have the stone?

Thank you David. Yes I do but haven't worn that ring in a while since I discovered fancy yellow diamonds.

 

[chrono]

Absolutely, Bryan. That was what I was trying to highlight - most of the time, all goes well but one must accept the risk and cannot blame the lapidary for it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Most remarkable re-cut story....
We owned a 3.5ct Cushion, S-T color.
It was the type of cushion that looked quite like a round, but with a squarish cushion outline ( if that makes sense)
The color was buttery.
During the manufacture of the ring, there was an accident with a laser, and the culet was destroyed.
It looked like a bomb had gone off in the center of the stone.

I had a buddy do a recut, and we ended up with a 3ct FANCY YELLOW Radiant.
Amazing.

Relevant to this thread- The thought of recutting the 3.5ct never even occurred to me.
Maybe I need to consider re-cuts more

 

[WinkHPD]

And I've experienced, seen and was told by several other well known lapidaries about their disaster recuts. Most go well but who wants to be the one that doesn't go well? I've had several tweaked with great success. I've had one where the colour went south. I've had one where the inclusion grew so it went from a 2 ct stone to a 1 ct stone. All these were done with the consultation of the lapidary who studied the stone in hand first.

This is critical to understand. Even the top cutters cannot predict with certainty what is going to happen on the wheel. So a consultation is still just an educated guess as to the outcome. You have to be accepting of whatever fate holds in store for the project. And you have to resist any temptation to blame the cutter for failures. You selected him for his skill and reputation. He is going to give it his best, but the rock sometimes has a different agenda!

So true. I once belonged to an investment club. I had the opportunity to take a trip to Thailand to buy colored gems and it was an incredible adventure. I bought fat bellied native cuts with the intention of having Richard Homer recut them. All of the recuts were successful, a couple massively so in that the value more than quadrupled on some of the gems.

Once stone was nice before it was recut, it is still nice, but I (hear that said as bolded and italicized and said MUCH louder than any of the other words in this sentence) made a mistake when I bought the original gem, it was too saturated and the recut darkened the color even more. I still have that gem, may have it when I die...

Over about a two year period I sold all of the other gems and after recutting expenses the club made a little over double the money that they invested. I finally got tired of hearing how they lost money on that one gem and that I was a bad investor. I finally sold my position in the club and enjoyed the over all profit in having been an investor with them. During the years that followed they lost more than half their net worth in the "real good investments" in real estate.

I ran into one of the club members a few weeks ago. His first words were, "When are you going to sell that (expletive deleted) purple sapphire and give us the rest of our money back?"

LOL, he still thinks doubling his money in two years was a bad investment. He was one of the ones who voted against it, and wanted to put all of the money in real estate. In his mind it is not a bad thing that they lost half of the value of what they had, since someday they will get all of it back, but a 2X return was not good enough on some silly gems.

Goodness knows WHAT he would be saying if one of the gems had exploded on the wheel. I have never again taken investors in my gem purchases. You and I know what the risks are and are happy to take them, many do not, and will hold it against anyone but themselves if it goes bad.

Wink

 

[Gypsy]

I don't advise most consumers do to it. For many of reasons above. It's a gamble and the end result could be a total loss. Also most consumers don't realize that a 'repolish' is also cutting, as the only way to polish a stone is on the wheel. And that means insurance doesn't cover it.

However, as stated, if you DO have a good return policy AND can take it to a cutter to evaluate and tell you if it is a good candiate in that policy you can get good results.

I've done it twice myself but I didn't change faceting patterns, I kept the faceting and rehabiliated the condition or improved the performance only, and both times it was with old cuts. And it's been a positive experience both times.. I worked with BGD. First time was with a VERY inexpensive ebay stone (under a carat) it had been damaged with a huge chip on the crown facets. I got a 3 day return policy out of the seller and had them send it straight to BGD (I never saw the diamond pre-cutting). Brian said it was a great candidate, and not only could he get the chip out but with some very minor adjustments could improve the performance. So I gave the go ahead. I was very pleased.

The second time I bought a stone locally, AGAIN with a return policy. It was appraised at SI2 with poor polish because of the many dings and issues with the girdle and surface abrasions. I sent it to BGD within the return window. Again it was a good candidate for what I wanted to do (keep the faceting but improve the condition and performance) This one was an amazing transformation because I saw the before and after. BGD fixed the stone with MINIMUM loss of weight (like less than 3 points), fixed the girdle (there was spread loss but it was acceptable) and polished all the facet and again, did some minor adjustments to improve light return. The after was a big surprise. I'd liked the faceting (that's why I bought it), but I did not expect the stone to become the fireball it did. It was appraised (I did not get it lab graded) at VS2 clarity and excellent polish afterward.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Look at the diamond's side view.
Where did they put the girdle ... too high, too low, or just about right?

If the girdle is too high or too low you'll lose more weight than you would if it's closer to just right.

Kenny..I'm sure the ladies here can answer your Q about girdles..

http://www.herroom.com/rago-6101-high-waist-brief-girdle-w--zipper.shtml?utm_source=adv&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=pla&utm_content=Rago01-6101&kwid=productads-plaid^94015746797-sku^1267019-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^48026190189

 

[Dancing Fire]

I would a chance If the price is right, and if the stone had a GIA report with VS+ clarity.

 

[WinkHPD]

Hi Wink!
I've experienced more victories than defeats but in spite of that, I still find it too risky for me as a consumer. I am only willing to risk low value stones. In the one case, it was a spectacular red spinel that went from over 2 carats to a low 1 carat so you know the drop in value was significant.

I was posting when this came in so I missed it.

Did the increase in beauty help to cure the angst?

Wink

 

[chrono]

Sorry Wink, unfortunately there was no improvement in colour.

 

[WinkHPD]

Nor beauty?

Wink

 

[Karl_K]

I would a chance If the price is right, and if the stone had a GIA report with VS+ clarity.

Don't forget to check for strain.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I would a chance If the price is right, and if the stone had a GIA report with VS+ clarity.

Don't forget to check for strain.

I don't have anything in mind yet..