Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & appraisers

[Gypsy]

Is it possible to have porosity issues in a handforged ring? Or does the porosity mean that some part of it was cast? I have a friend who bought a ring with the understanding that it would be entirely hand forged but according to a good appraiser it has porosity issues-- and I thought porosity was a cast only issue, so before I give her advice I thought I'd ask the experts to make sure I understand that issues.

 

[ame]

Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & appraisers

My Vatche has porosity issues. All of the remakes had it sadly. I also was of the mind that it wouldn't happen. I have not ever seen anything about say a Mark Morrell having such issues tho. So perhaps its what type of ring it is? The Vatche is a cast shank with a hand wrought wirework head. That's what the folks at Vatche told us.

 

[Mike R]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Is it possible to have porosity issues in a handforged ring? Or does the porosity mean that some part of it was cast? I have a friend who bought a ring with the understanding that it would be entirely hand forged but according to a good appraiser it has porosity issues-- and I thought porosity was a cast only issue, so before I give her advice I thought I'd ask the experts to make sure I understand that issues.

Hi Gypsy

No, a hand forged ring will not have porosity.

I have seen a few hand forged rings with metal issues, nowadays with the price of metal like it is some smaller jewellers in my country (and most possibly elsewhere) have been overworking and remelting all their scraps so many times that the mixture changes as some of the alloys burn away, it's also easy for a jeweller to contaminate the metal while melting causing pits or delamination in the metals surface.

Another problem on a hand forged platinum ring could be contamination by gold or other metals.
When your working with platinum you have to take great care to use tools free of any gold dust, filings or gold solder (you should have a set of tools dedicated to working exclusively on platinum)
If you use any tool (even) with microscopic particles of gold on it, they can be transferred to the surface of the platinum piece your working on. Platinum requires great heat to solder or fuse pieces together, during this time the small gold pieces melt and eat into the platinum causing super fine pits that can give the platinums surface a dull look that sort of looks like porosity to the untrained eye.

Is the appraiser a good one? Do they have a good understanding of how jewellery is made? Sometimes I find while they might be great with gems and diamonds but not all of them really understand jewellery.
If they are a trusted appraiser I would accept what they are saying, they would have been in a great spot to make the call on if the piece was handmade or cast.
Did they see any other evidence of casting? Like a rough skin on inside areas of the ring that are impossible to clean up?

Edited to add, is the ring rose gold? That can also have issues with fine cracking during hand making if not annealed properly. (you can't quench RG while it's too hot)

 

[Mike R]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

My Vatche has porosity issues. All of the remakes had it sadly. I also was of the mind that it wouldn't happen. I have not ever seen anything about say a Mark Morrell having such issues tho. So perhaps its what type of ring it is? The Vatche is a cast shank with a hand wrought wirework head. That's what the folks at Vatche told us.

Sorry I'm not up on designer rings, are Vatche rings supposed to be handmade?

 

[ame]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

My Vatche has porosity issues. All of the remakes had it sadly. I also was of the mind that it wouldn't happen. I have not ever seen anything about say a Mark Morrell having such issues tho. So perhaps its what type of ring it is? The Vatche is a cast shank with a hand wrought wirework head. That's what the folks at Vatche told us.

Sorry I'm not up on designer rings, are Vatche rings supposed to be handmade?

Depends on the setting but yes they are marketed as made to order by hand, esp the ones made with wire, as mine is.

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

I would add to mikes answer the possibility of porosity in the solder seams where the various pieces are assembled. Even fully forged pieces are generally assembled from several parts and if this assembly involves solder (which it usually does), the possibility is opend up for porosity problems.

 

[mrssalvo]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

My Vatche has porosity issues. All of the remakes had it sadly. I also was of the mind that it wouldn't happen. I have not ever seen anything about say a Mark Morrell having such issues tho. So perhaps its what type of ring it is? The Vatche is a cast shank with a hand wrought wirework head. That's what the folks at Vatche told us.

Sorry I'm not up on designer rings, are Vatche rings supposed to be handmade?

I have never considered Vatche one of the handmade designers. I actually thought all of their rings are cast, not just the heads. I know several people with Vatche rings and owned one myself for a time and they make a beautiful product IMO, even if fully cast.

Gypsy, Mike is the expert and already chimed in, but I'd always thought porosity could only be found in cast rings, not one's that are entirely made by hand as well.

 

[Mike R]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

I would add to mikes answer the possibility of porosity in the solder seams where the various pieces are assembled. Even fully forged pieces are generally assembled from several parts and if this assembly involves solder (which it usually does), the possibility is opend up for porosity problems.

Very good point, but a solder join should probably be no more than a maximum of half a millimeter thick (unless done extremely badly) while you could have porosity in an overcooked join I would have thought a good appraiser would have told you that you have a faulty join(s), not porosity.

 

[Mike R]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

My Vatche has porosity issues. All of the remakes had it sadly. I also was of the mind that it wouldn't happen. I have not ever seen anything about say a Mark Morrell having such issues tho. So perhaps its what type of ring it is? The Vatche is a cast shank with a hand wrought wirework head. That's what the folks at Vatche told us.

Sorry I'm not up on designer rings, are Vatche rings supposed to be handmade?

I have never considered Vatche one of the handmade designers. I actually thought all of their rings are cast, not just the heads. I know several people with Vatche rings and owned one myself for a time and they make a beautiful product IMO, even if fully cast.

Gypsy, Mike is the expert and already chimed in, but I'd always thought porosity could only be found in cast rings, not one's that are entirely made by hand as well.

Your correct Mrssalvo, true porosity is only found on cast pieces, the other problems I talked about on badly forged pieces will look slightly different to casting porosity.

If you are looking for a hand forged ring it is extremely important to ask very specific questions of your jeweller, then repeat back to them what your understanding is of how your piece will be made to make sure you have taken the correct meaning from what they have told you.

There are many ways that the word "Hand...something" can be used to give the impression that a piece is hand forged when infact it is cast.

I recently had a potential client comparing my quote for a hand forged piece to what they thought was also a handmade piece by a popular caster, when more questions were asked it turns out the other quote was for a piece where everything will be handmade except for the casting

If hand forged is important to you please make sure you ask the correct questions and do not give up asking until you get a solid answer.

 

[Mike R]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Happy to help if you have any other questions Gypsy, I have a few days with no jewellery talk now till JCK and I'm sort of missing it.

 

[Victor Canera]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Porosity won't generally occur in the base parts of the metal of a hand-made piece but as DenverAppraiser pointed out, it's possible where solder is used. I wouldn't really call it porosity in the general sense. Porosity usually denotes the larger visible types found in casting. Micro-porosity can (doesn't have to) occur on a hand-made piece where joints are welded. A lot of times you have to look with a loupe to even find these micro-porosities if they're even there. The amount of porosity can really depend too on the type of solder and temperature of solder used. On platinum solder for example, the higher temperature solders used will have basically no micro-porosity but these are usually relegated to the large parts of a ring ie. solder\weld closing a shank where a large chunk of metal can absorb the heat. It's hard for example to solder a tiny part with a very high temperature platinum solder, you'll melt the part with the solder and waste some hours of work. The lower you go in the solder temperatures, the more and more different alloys and less platinum\palladium is used in making the solder and you can get some porosity there.

Basically it's not an issue with hand-forged jewelry.

A lot of times I don't use solder. If it's a simple shank or band or large part of a piece I can place tiny pieces of platinum and because of their mass, they'll melt first and weld the piece together.

My best,

 

[ame]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

In platinum though, don't most use laser welding to join now vs solder?

 

[Mike R]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

In platinum though, don't most use laser welding to join now vs solder?

I don't use a laser at all, I beleve it's use would be limited, in my experience (from the pieces I have seen in person) the results are often not visually appealing.
A laser producers a very different join to solder, you have probably seen those messy joins on machine parts that look like a row of quarters stacked on top of one another, that's the type of join a laser produces, it can then be extremely diffacult if not impossible to get the join looking nice and smooth afterwards.

A laser can be useful for tacking two pieces together before soldering.

I would like to make clear that visable porosity in a solder join of a hand forged ring is a faulty join, a good jeweller will cut through the join and re do it.

 

[Victor Canera]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

In platinum though, don't most use laser welding to join now vs solder?

Laser welding has its place in the manufacturer's arsenal. It's great for pre work like Mike says where you can tack on a part and align it perfectly and then solder into place. It's also great for later cosmetic work if needed. Pieces aren't actually assembled by laser. The reason is that solder will actually melt and fill the crevice between parts and fuse them together. It'll form a physical strong bond between parts whereas laser welding can't do this.

Porosity shouldn't be an issue on and it shouldn't be visible.


My best,

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Hi Mike and Victor: Since I have you both here (thanks so much about responding) and you are both known for fully handmade pieces, do either of you ever use cast parts? And when and why would you? And if you plan to use a cast part in your rings or make the decision to at some point during fabrication: do you disclose that in your quote or in writing at any time that you plan to, or does the person have to ask you in order to find out what the method of fabrication throughout the piece will be? Or if it's something you decide to do after the quote, do you disclose (automatically) at the end maybe when you are delivering the ring?

Thanks to you both for the detailed response. The details are very interesting, especially about the impact of gold on platinum. And also the solder issue.

My friend's ring is platinum, and I will link her here so she can read your responses. I'm not sure HOW good the appraiser is, but it is one I know PSers have used (but not one of our appraiser's that post on here) happily. So I will mention that to her as well.

Thanks so much for all the knowledge, and thank you in advance for putting up with my additional questions above!

ETA: Also IF you do use cast parts are they from a standard catalog; like precast by a casting house, or are they custom cast and do you send out to a casting house, or do you have the casting equipment on site?

 

[oldminer]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Some components of Vatche rings were being cast when I visited their shop a few years ago. I doubt strongly that they hand make their entire line of rings today as cost components are highly efficient and cost effective. Using good quality control is totally up to the individual firm and that can make porosity a non-event or a real problem depending on how effective or lax the QC is.

 

[Mike R]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Hi Mike and Victor: Since I have you both here (thanks so much about responding) and you are both known for fully handmade pieces, do either of you ever use cast parts? And when and why would you? And if you plan to use a cast part in your rings or make the decision to at some point during fabrication: do you disclose that in your quote or in writing at any time that you plan to, or does the person have to ask you in order to find out what the method of fabrication throughout the piece will be? Or if it's something you decide to do after the quote, do you disclose (automatically) at the end maybe when you are delivering the ring?

Thanks to you both for the detailed response. The details are very interesting, especially about the impact of gold on platinum. And also the solder issue.

My friend's ring is platinum, and I will link her here so she can read your responses. I'm not sure HOW good the appraiser is, but it is one I know PSers have used (but not one of our appraiser's that post on here) happily. So I will mention that to her as well.

Thanks so much for all the knowledge, and thank you in advance for putting up with my additional questions above!

ETA: Also IF you do use cast parts are they from a standard catalog; like precast by a casting house, or are they custom cast and do you send out to a casting house, or do you have the casting equipment on site?

 Hi Gypsy, I'm glad I could be of some help.
I answered all your questions for you (boy, there was a lot of them), I'm afraid my answers might sound a little self promotional to some but I was really just trying to answer all your questions and stick to the facts.

No I do not use any cast pieces on my engagement rings, many years ago when I was a kid my Dads business that I now work at would have though, our business model changed about 12 years ago.

 I do make some very large sculptural pieces (brooches and pendants) that I very occasionally use some cast pieces on but they are made for stock, not on commission, when a client buys one of these pieces they get an album showing step by step how the piece was made including showing how the wax was hand carved (not made by a machine).

Before any jeweller starts making a piece they would know from the outset if they don't have the skill or inclination to handmake the piece, you won't just decide to have something cast halfway through the process.

I have never and will never use CAD to make jewellery, it's against my personal beliefs of what jewellery should be about, I accept that this is not the case for everyone and that's fine by me. 

Again I do not use castings for my rings or 99% of my other jewellery, my clients always have a full understanding of how the piece will be made before I start making any piece on commission, our client's mostly like to be part of the whole process.

I have an understanding of how a piece will be made before my Dad works out the quote, he works out the quote based on what I tell him I will do to create the piece and by looking at my sketches, things will not change.

I don't use any cast parts on my engagement rings and all the jewellery we sell is made by either my twin Brother (David) or myself personally.
 
I would like to say that we are a very different company to the PS norm, from what I can see even the smaller hand forged shops, we are an extremely small, all family business that is really about art rather than making a product, because of this our supply is extremely limited and we do not have the same demands put on us that a larger shop would, so my situation might not be the most helpful for you personally.

Hope this helps in some way Gypsy, I think Victors answers will probably be more helpful to you about how bigger shops work.
     

 

[Victor Canera]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Hi Mike and Victor: Since I have you both here (thanks so much about responding) and you are both known for fully handmade pieces, do either of you ever use cast parts? And when and why would you? And if you plan to use a cast part in your rings or make the decision to at some point during fabrication: do you disclose that in your quote or in writing at any time that you plan to, or does the person have to ask you in order to find out what the method of fabrication throughout the piece will be? Or if it's something you decide to do after the quote, do you disclose (automatically) at the end maybe when you are delivering the ring?

ETA: Also IF you do use cast parts are they from a standard catalog; like precast by a casting house, or are they custom cast and do you send out to a casting house, or do you have the casting equipment on site?

I don't personally use any casting on my rings, they're 100% hand-forged and casting free, even the shanks are hand-forged. I've been pounding people on the head about hand-made jewelry since 2000 when it wasn't popular. It's something I'm pretty passionate about to the point of bothering people about it in the past I can't really speak for others as to why or when they would use casting. Sometimes this limits us a lot as to the type of client and projects we can take on but it's a conscious decision we've made. A person doesn't have to ask for a hand-forged ring or ask for it specifically from me because that's the type of fabrication they will get and it's reflected on their paperwork. I have a write-up on my site that answers a lot of your questions but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link to it here. It's under the education category.

Jewelry takes some thought to make. I don't think a jeweler, half-way through the process, will change directions and use another type of fabrication to complete a ring. Some rings, you actually have to sit down and think about the engineering of for a little bit before you can even start working on it. You have to take considerations as to metal gauges, whether they'll support the stone enough, how it will all come together, different things before you can make it.


My best,

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Interesting and very informative posts (and no, it wasn't self promotional from either of you). Thanks so much.

I asked the last set of questions for my own information, I originally wanted a hand forged ring with my own engagement ring and that's what I had thought I had contracted for. But in the process of speaking to Ocean, I was asking questions about everything, it came out that she planned to cast my shank but handmake the halo. I was disappointed but she asked me to trust her, and I did. But it was troubling to me because it wasn't upfront. I felt that if anything was planned to be cast, when she gave me my sketch it should have been disclosed. My piece has no problems, no porosity, or anything and I have commissioned other CAD pieces but I really did want my engagement ring handmade.

As for the rest of it, thanks so much for your time. My best to you both and again, PS is lucky to have you!

 

[Victor Canera]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

PS is lucky to have you Gypsy!
You help people out, from your own generosity and good will.


My best,

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Handforging & Porosity: vendors (Mike, Victor) & apprais

Thank you Victor. It's a good community and we all help out where we can.