Green Lake Jewelry Works and Joseph Jewelry Visit Report

[chrono]

It could not have been a better day yesterday in Seattle, WA. The skies were clear, the sun was shinning and I had time to drop by Green Lake and Joseph Jewelry after work. I was also fortunate that Lisa Elser happened to get wind of this and called ahead so that I was given special treatment. A huge thank you to Lisa.

Green Lake Jewelry Works
http://www.greenlakejewelry.com

Quite out of the way for me since it is on the northeast side of Seattle and the traffic was heavy despite the off-hours (it was 2 pm). Fortunately, traffic moved well and parking was easy and free. The showroom is amazing; lots of huge windows, space, showcases and a bench display too. I was greeted right away and courteously, which is always a good feeling.

I was blown away by the quality of their work. The engraving was especially outstanding. It is incredibly fine, detailed and precise. I think this is their forte. Their wirework is like a web; that's how thin and fine it is. No awkward curves or kinks, they were well rounded and smooth. Halo, you say? Very thin and fine. They had 2 sided pave, straight and angled. They do all sorts of work from contemporary to antique, simple to ornate. They do thick bezels and bezels so thin it looks like a drawn line.

The selection of coloured stones are mixed; some are nicer than most. I liked the pair of round tsavorites (they look like lab created emerald) but the sticker shock was too much for me. 1.36 cttw = $2500 so that means a 0.7 ct tsavorite is $1200! Tax here is 9% which makes it less affordable too. All the stones are very small, ranging from subcarat to 2 cts at most. I think many PSers have nicer looking CSs than what I saw in the showcase. As I said, they do have a few outstanding coloured stones though.

After walking around and admiring the eye candy, I was ready to bring up the topic of my FCD project. Those who've been around know that I've been kicking this project around the last several years, not committing to a design until a few weeks ago (many thanks to Starzin, Pregcurious and others). This is where I started to feel uneasy. I showed the representative my design (thank you Starzin for the mockup. I was told you used the actual gem CAD software). She was reluctant to give me a quote. She then gave me a ball park number that was useless. She said it could range from $A to 2x $A. Now, how is that useful to me? So it could be a certain price up to double that which is significant.

Trying to be polite, I asked for a smaller range. She explained that she could do so unless I brought the stones in or ship them. If I decide not to follow up on it, they will ship the stone back. I told her that even though I can insure the stones, I would rather the stones themselves over the claimed insurance money. And I do not want to risk shipping the stones multiple times. I have the full measurements of the stone so she should be able to give me a ball park number, I thought. Then she said that they have to check the stones for fractures. Ummmm.....yeah, okay.... I felt a bit insulted but let that go since I could be reading too much into her comments.

After my pressing harder, she requested my phone (the design was on my phone) and took it to do a mockup on their system. To her credit, it was a well done drawing and quite promptly too. The quotation was in the lower range of her initial $A to 2 times $A quote, which was a relief. Then came the guillotine - the setting fee is $100 for each subcarat diamond, so the total setting fee for my project came up to $400! I need time to think it over so I thanked her for her time. She then pulled her sales pitch on me, telling me that they don't do hollow settings and etc., hence the higher cost. Again, perhaps I am reading too much into it but I felt insulted or looked down again but I let it go because it could just be how I was feeling at that moment in time. For the price that they charge, a hollowed setting is the last thing I expect and want.

Still, I like the quality of the work and have confidence in their ability. I also requested and was granted permission to take these pictures. I did not take any gem pictures because they look extinct or washed out, so sorry folks.

 

[chrono]

I hope our local smithing PSers will jump in and explain how the tools are used and their names.

 

[chrono]

The wax machine was fun to watch. I made sure not to capture details seen on the computer screen for the customer's design privacy.

 

[chrono]

Wax machine picture. Interestingly, Green Lake was going to cast my ring. No hand elements at all other than the usual finishing polishing touch. Communication will be done on a secure private website where one has to sign in to access their account. Approval on CADs before building the wax. They will send the wax ring for me to try on and once approved, that is final. They will then make the ring. I was told it would take 5 weeks or so. A deposit of 50% is required upfront.

 

[LoversKites]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with the mean lady At least you got something out of them.

Really awesome pics. Can someone please elaborate about what the tools do and such?

I'm excited to know how everything will progress

 

[OTL]

This may sound crazy but I may be able to understand the setting fee...I was quoted from $80-$150 to set a stone when trying to buy a semi mount from Ebay and get it set locally last year. And it is the easiest type, just a round stone, with a same size prong setting. I wish I can find cheaper jewellers in this area. So far, no luck. It sucked, but I kinda understand why they want to charge that based on time spent...

 

[chrono]

Joseph Jewelry
http://www.josephjewelry.com/

It was a beautiful drive; the lake, the houses with endless windows and it was the first time I was actually in Seattle proper driving to Bellevue. Drivers here are so polite; if you signal, they let you cut in! Lots of greenery and roads under buildings. It took a while but I was at JJ by 3:30 pm. The town was very quaint with large sidewalks. The place was easy to find but not so for the parking. Although the website said there is parking behind the building, I missed it and had to drive a square back to the store to discover the road to the parking was right before store itself.

The feel of JJ was completely different than GL. GL was very woodsy and cozy. JJ is very posh and elegant. I was greeted right away and offered assistance. As usual, the eye candy was too much so I declined, explaining that I would like to look around first. They offered to take items out for me to look at but I didn't want to bother them. A big thank you to Lisa again, they were expecting me so the customer service was red carpet worthy. Not as many coloured stones but the overall jewellery quality is very high. I felt that GL had outstanding jewellery but JJ was style appeals more to me (more delicate and detailed). I couldn't see the price tags so I'm not sure about their general pricing. They have an estate section with amazing pieces.

Onto the project itself. I showed him the design picture my phone and he got started right away. I gave him the size estimate and etc. He pulled out a pink sapphire and yellow diamond earring to play around with metal colours. We decided on 18K rose gold because it's a soft colour that goes well with both stones. When he went off to get a sample ring to show me, I tried on the 18K RG and realized the band disappeared! Yes, folks, Chrono apparently has rose gold coloured skin. When I showed it to him later, he also agreed that it's not a good metal colour on me. Bummer. We agreed that 18K YG is too much for the FIpP and ended up with 14K YG. I would much prefer platinum or 18K YG but neither do justice to the FCDs so 14K YG it is.

To further amp up the pink FCDs, especially the 2 blush pinks, he will use 14K RG baskets to play up the colour. No one will be able to see the different metal colour from the top view. He estimated that the ring will be 13 mm long so this will be a middle ring finger, sized larger so I can switch it between hands during hot/cold weather. I am impressed with his knowledge and the way he presented himself. He then presented a quotation to me on the spot. Shipping is free (or already built in) and so is the setting price. Total cost? 25% less than Green Lake. Not only that, the leaf will be hand engraved to achieve the 3D look and feel, so there will be curves and grooves in it. The engraver will be their bench that came to them from Green Lake with 20 years of experience. He also assured me that they will not make super thin shanks; their pieces will stand the test of time.

Can you tell I'm super excited? They will also honour the price as long as the gold price doesn't shoot up too much. No prizes for guessing who I'm going with. As with GL, all communication will be done on their secure website where the customer has to sign in. If I don't like the end result, I am guaranteed a full do-over at no additional cost. I enjoyed the visit very much and hope my first impression holds true throughout my FCD project.

 

[chrono]

LoverKite,
Thank you for sharing my excitement. I know a few of the tools but not everything. Where is Lady D when you need her?

OTL,
I can understand charging $100 for a large stone but these are tiny 2 mm and 3 mm stones. I've had 2 to 3 carat stones well set in Chicago for $30 each. It seems a larger sticker shock when comparing GL and JJ's pricing as well.

 

[chrono]

I gave up trying to take pictures of their engraved pieces because my pictures do them no justice. These aren't good pictures either but they are better than nothing.

 

[OTL]

LoverKite,
Thank you for sharing my excitement. I know a few of the tools but not everything. Where is Lady D when you need her?

OTL,
I can understand charging $100 for a large stone but these are tiny 2 mm and 3 mm stones. I've had 2 to 3 carat stones well set in Chicago for $30 each. It seems a larger sticker shock when comparing GL and JJ's pricing as well.

I completely agree it's really pricy. Guess I'm just a push over buyer and got used to them. I thought being insulted is a common thing

 

[chrono]

There was a really neat pendant that I didn't bother attempting to photograph because I couldn't do it well. It is based on the reflective dish concept the way Peter Lees did his. The dish has carved likes underneath so the reflection looks softer and wavy. It is a very soft and feminine effect. He had another one with tiny stones underneath a checkboard cut so that the effect is that the stone is a patterned multi-coloured stone.

Here are the example stones he used to play around with metal colours for my project. They looked far more beautiful in person.

 

[chrono]

Last set of pictures.

 

[LoversKites]

Based on your descriptions you should totally stick with JJ!

Those pearls really stick out to me. Thanks for the eye candy

 

[minousbijoux]

Wait, Chrono, you left out a word and I'm dying here! You said: "Total cost? 25% than Greenlake" 25% more? Less?

Anyway, thanks for the photos and documentation of your day. Now I'm looking forward to your ring.

 

[Trill]

Thanks for all the eye candy! I've admired both jewelers' work and can only imagine how exquisite they must be in person. Actually, a JJ CS ring lead me to PS.

Based on your descriptions I'm glad you went with JJ! Looking forward your ring!

 

[jbkhere]

Seattle is one of my favorite cities! And fantastic jewelry too, I can't wait to go back!
Congrats on finding such a terrific vendor for your project and thanks for the eye candy too! I love that enamel pin!

 

[katharath]

Great reviews - informative and fun to read. Congrats on moving forward with your project !

I also agree that the setting fees of $100 per stone seems quite high, particularly for such small stones. I'm in Vegas and when I finally had a stone locally set, I called all around and got estimates ranging from $20 to $150 - just for a very simple prong setting (on a 6.4 mm sapphire). I chose the place that had the best reviews but was also the cheapest - just $20. It seems like such an odd thing, that pricing is so all over the place just for a very simple no frills setting job. (And my sapphire came out just fine, no issues during setting). I've also been told that the size of a stone does affect the setting price (larger = pricier), hence my feeling that $400 for setting your FCDs was quite high.

 

[chrono]

LK,
You are correct; I'm going with JJ and I love sharing the beauties I saw yesterday.

Minou,
Urgh...I managed to fix the missing word on my iPhone but now that I'm back in front of my laptop, I found many more missing and mistyped words. I cannot edit them now either since that window of opportunity has closed. I meant to type that JJ was less expensive than GL.

Trill,
Which JJ ring brought you to PS?

K,
Thank you and no need to thank me for the pictures. It is part of our CS duties.

 

[pregcurious]

Thanks for the report!! If it goes well, I imagine many of us will be visiting JJ in the future. It sounds like it is also CAD/cast with hand finishing?

 

[MollyMalone]

What a terrific visit report -- thank you ever so much for all the useful, interesting information and illustrative photos!

P.S. Have you ever heard an explanation for why those, who set their fees on a sliding scale, charge more to set a larger stone?

 

[Tekate]

Chrono, what an interesting story.. I have followed your design ideas and cannot wait to see your new ring.. I appreciate the pictures .. I learn so much here.. Glad the price was better and one has to feel good vibes when they enter a jewelry store, one has to feel that they are really interested in your business.. Best of luck on your project and look forward to your pix..

 

[JewelFreak]

The pieces you photographed made me jump up & down, Chrono -- they are just up your alley! I'm SO glad you got the chance to see JJ in person; the personal relationship will make the project go much smoother & communication ditto. Sounds like they were more on your wavelength anyway than GL. How exciting! And thank you for the super report & pics -- seeing the wax done would be fascinating, wish I'd been there.

When I feel talked down to -- most often by doctors & veterinarians -- I usually react as you did: "maybe it's just me today." But those incidents stick with me for days & I eventually realize it wasn't me. I was being talked down to. Possibly the talker speaks that way to everyone, possibly not, but it's more than annoying, isn't it? I've always wished for a snazzy quip to use, but haven't come up with one yet.

Anyway -- it's super super neat that you've arrived at a jeweler you like after all the work & thinking! Can't wait to see how it comes along!

--- Laurie

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I am right here! It sounds like you had a fun and productive time, Chrono. I love all the eye candy, specially that step cut sapphire.

Now, to business.

These are forming and forging tools, to shape, stretch and form metal. The front row has a set of bench anvils, ranging from flat to highly domed. A flat block is a staple of any jewelry bench but you generally find a square block of steel, not these nice (and expensive) Fretz bench anvils. They are used to flatten sheet, lightly dome or true up a shape (the more rounded ones), to light forging on a earring hook, etc. To the left of the bench anvils, you have a gorgeous set of Fretz mini forming stakes. Forming stakes are the basic tools of a silversmith (to make bowls, cups, vases, teapots, etc) and they are generally large and heavy. This small stakes are used to forge rings, bracelets, form bezels and basically form or stretch metal. Each stake has particular curves and you should match the curve you want to the correct stake. Sometimes, several stakes are needed to form a single piece with multiple curves.

Behind the stake holder there is a hammer. Since we can't see the head, I am just going to call it a hammer. It is probably some sort of raising or forming hammer to be used with the stakes but since there is a detailed picture of hammers further on, I will skip the subject for now.

Then, to the right of the unknown hammer, there are several punches. These punches in particular are for forming tapered bezels (together with the bezel blocks - the steel blocks with several holes of diminishing sizes you can see to the far right and in the back). There are many ways to make nice cones for bezels. I prefer to cut out a flat washer shape from sheet and then use round punches and a bezel block with tapered punches to compress it into a cone. This gives a seamless, solderless cone. You can also cut out a partial circumference and solder it closed, giving you a conical shape that only needs a light truing up with the block to make a nice cone. But that solder seam is going to be around to make trouble later.

Moving on to the right again we have a set of round or dapping punches. These are used with round daps to dome up metal, making half rounds (for beads), domes for enameling or to start giving volume to a shape that will later be refined with other punches or hammers (for example, lightly dome a heart shape and, then, push down the cleft for a pretty puffy heart). As you can see, they range in seize from tiny to large. The smaller punches are also useful for a variety of things: stamping dots, texturing and anything that needs a small round tool.

The white cup has more round punches. Right behind, you can see a dapping block, with round depressions on all faces that match the punches. Using steel tools on a steel block will stretch and thin metal so most jewelers will also have a wood dapping block or punches, to form metal without thinning. It all depends on what you want to do.

Just behind the dapping block, there is a forming block (sometimes called a swage block but this depends on how it is used: swaging is a forging process and forming is just shaping, without stretching the metal). This can be used for forging, hammering down wire into the depressions to make half round or triangular wire, or for forming metal tubing (then, a tubing drawplate will also be needed to close and true the round tubing). To the right of the dapping block, there is another forming block, with larger depressions.

Way in the back and to the right, there is a miniature stake holder screwed to the edge of the bench. The miniature stakes are held in place in these while used.

Note how all the forming and forging tools are kept beautifully polished. This is critical since any scratches, pits or weird shapes in these tools would be transferred to the metal when they are used. A scarred, scratched, pitted piece would require a lot of finishing, wasting a lot of time and material. If they are misused (striking hard steel, scratched, etc), the tools have to be refinished to get them back to a mirror finish again. A light sanding and a good polish may solve a light scratch but a hammer my have to be reground, filed, sanded and polished to fix a bad dent. Of course, most hammers will have gone through this when acquired, to customize them to the worker's need.

These are beautiful tools. Bill Fretz designs great stakes and very nice hammers that are a joy to use. He also partners with many important metalsmiths, like Alan Revere and Michael Good, to create specialty hammers and stakes.

 

[SouthernSunset]

Sounds super exciting! Can't wait to see how this progresses.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

In the next picture, we can see a little close up of some of the mini stakes. I am now officially drooling since they are beautiful, beautiful tools.

The mystery hammer now becomes identifiable. It is a ball peen hammer. The name refers to the faces of the hammer: a ball (round face) and a flat face. This looks like a medium weight hammer and it is used for forging and forming.

Front and center, as proper, is one of the most important and least appreciated tool of the fine goldsmith: a pair of dividers. This allows precise measurements to be transferred to metal, mark the position of a stone, prong or whatever. Precision is the heart of fine workmanship and, along with calipers and a scribe, this is the tool that allows that to happen.

Beside it, there is a holder of some sort. The bit (whether a drill, a tap or whatever it was designed to hold) is placed perpendicularly and the holder is rotated.

The black bowl is pitch. It is used to hold metal for chasing and repousse or engraving. This is a pretty large bowl which might be used for a bracelet or a larger item. There is a whole range of pitch, chosen to suit each chaser's needs and preferences. Black pitch is usually asphalt based. It is hard and the piece is not going to pop off of it easily. It also stinks and has to be burned off. Maestro Aquafina and other Italian chasers use it often. It also seems to be favoured for making large plates, etc. There are several resin based alternatives (which smell of pine and can be dissolved in spirits) which are softer. I see this used by smaller scale workers (jewelry makers). Lisa Nanchimkin and Valentim Yoktov use resin pitches. Chasing bowls are round on the bottom and sit on rubber disks, leather bags or something similar, so they can be easily turned and tilted to any angle, allowing the person to have easy access to all parts of the pieces, at any angle required.

Way in the back there is a mandrel holder. It is similar to a vise and used to hold tools horizontally, specially ring mandrels, making a nice, firm base to work on.

 

[NKOTB]

Thanks for the reviews! Glad you had a good day. I'm interested in trying out JJ (before the mad rush increases their prices!), though I've had two really good experiences with GL. My first GL project, I put a cheap garnet in it, then switched out the stone later. The artist I was working with left the holes in the sides, for diamonds to be gypsy set later (for much cheaper).

Someone asked above about why it might be more expensive to set a larger stone. I imagine it's because there is more risk, i.e. a larger stone would be more expensive to potentially replace, should it be damaged during setting, etc.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Ok, here we can see the mandrel holder better, there in the back, as well as the pitch bowl.

Behind the chasing bowl is a leather or wood mallet. These are used for forming metal without thinning (as a metal hammer would) or marring the metal (in theory...). Despite the fact that it is beside the pitch bowl, it is not a chasing hammer! It is also used for sizing up rings.

Speaking of rings, the strange contraption on the rear left side of the photo is a ring bender. It can bend wide, thick strips of metal into perfect circles of various sizes (each of the little cylinders is used for a different diameter). It is a real workhorse: it cuts time needed to form ring shanks, makes perfect circles without needing to hammer it out on a ring mandrel and it saves a lot of muscle (heavy gold shanks are a pain to bend!).

The small wooden boxes probably contain sets of burrs, drills or small rotary bits for the flex shaft. Since each shape has a use (setting stones, deburring, drilling, cutting channels, etc) and each shape has a variety of sizes to handle all kinds of tasks, the amount of burrs, bits and bobs metalsmiths collect is quite large. Besides, we like tools.

In the front, we see a miniature anvil. These are small versions of the large anvil, used on the bench to do light forging, bending wires and flattening. Yeah, those are things we do a lot and each piece requires a particular angle, position or size, so forming tools also stack up fast.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Woohoo, a ncie heavy anvil for forging! However, this anvil is not going to be used. See how rusted and pitted it is? Any metal worked on it would end up looking like a small pox victim, instead of smooth and shiny. Some metalsmiths do go for that look, though. For most, however, it would have to be resurfaced to be smooth.

To go with an anvil, we have a nice collection of Fretz hammers (the handles are recognizable anywhere - the paduk wood is nice and springy). Each head has a shape appropriate to its purpose, which will move the metal in a particular way. The long, flat heads are raising hammers. The wide head forces the metal perpendicular to itself, without a lot of sideways movement. The wide and very sharp head is a texturing hammer. Lightly working the surface with the sharp edge will create a beautiful texture, reminiscent of birch bark or the water in a lake. The largest hammer is a forging hammer, made to move a lot of metal efficiently. It is approximately 400 grams (I think) and it is perfect for forged bracelets, necklaces and similar things. However, it can also do some serious damage if misused! The rounded heads are embossing hammers, once again used to round or dome metal.

Behind this, there is the melting set up: ceramic crucibles in holders, ingot molds, a fireproof surface and a striker to light the torch. Metal is melted, alloyed and poured from the crucibles. A good melt will give you a good ingot of metal. A bad ingot will be porous, have internal cracks or brittleness, which, of course, will pop up or break at the worse possible time. A good ingot can be forged or rolled out into wire or sheet of good quality, which will be easier to work and give a better end result. I am going to skip alloying, since I love the subject and I just bore you all to tears as I go into all the details.

In the background, it looks like a railroad tie (used as a flat anvil, after resurfacing, since it is good, heavy steel. It also tends to ring out like a bell when struck) to the left. On the right, there is a circle cutter, which is exactly that: a tool that cuts perfect circles and washers with a blow or two of a mallet. The sheet is placed between the two plates, under the appropriately sized circle and the fitting punch (with sharp edges for cutting) is whacked down. Voila, a nice circle without you having to sit down and saw it (some people are good with a saw and say it is faster to just saw it out. They haven't seen the egg shapes that come from my saw).

Now I have serious tool envy and my poor hodge-podge collection of tools is feeling jealous and second best. Since I depend on them to make jewelry, I better go and make peace with them.

 

[T L]

I gave up trying to take pictures of their engraved pieces because my pictures do them no justice. These aren't good pictures either but they are better than nothing.

Absolutely gorgeous pieces.

Thanks for the very interesting thread Chrono.

 

[lelser]

So glad I was able to help! Josephs would have been excellent regardless, but I work with them a lot and was glad to make the intro.