green-blue stone?

[bluegirl123]

Hey guys,

so I'm looking into obtaining a stone with an aqua like colour for a while, something like the gorgeous blue-green tourmalines that atwater got from Gene, or those tourmalines that Barry had earlier this year.

so far I have found the following stones that contains the colour that I am looking for:

blue-green tourmaline -- hard to obtain as I am not as fast as you guys when it comes to buying stones when they drop
heated aquamarine -- has to be heated because pale colours do not work well with me
heated blue zircon -- has to be heated because pale colours do not work well with me
apatite -- ruled out b/c too soft?
paraiba -- ruled out b/c too expensive

so out of all those options (1-3), I would prefer the tourmaline, but I dont want to spend forever looking. So I think I will be settling for a blue zircon in the mean time. However, I have some concerns:

1) I've read that blue zircon is really commercialized -- so I should not be spending too much one one?
2) is heat treatment the only treatment? I would be OK with heat but nothing else.
3) is the colour stable? I've read that stones can fade???

BTW, this will be for a occasional ring.
Thanks!

 

[T L]

If you care about treatment, I would stay away from indicolites or blue/green tourmaline. I have been doing lots of research on them, and no one can tell me definitively which ones look treated, and you can't know for sure unless you dug it up yourself. They are irradiating lots of tourmaline, especially those coming out of Africa, Brazil and Afghanistan, and the treatment is not detectable. Even vendors that are trusted, can be duped by their suppliers.

 

[kelpie]

Do any of these tickle your fancy? I think his prices are good.

http://www.gemfix.com/tourmaline_green_blue.html

 

[chrono]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with TL about treatment of blue and blue green tourmalines. There’s currently no method of irradiation detection short of if the lapidary dug it out of the ground himself or was present when it happened. Aquamarine loses the green component when heated, leaving it with only the blue hue. Sometimes zircon is also irradiated. The other problem with zircon is the brittleness so I do not recommend having it set in a ring as it will see facet wear very quickly.

 

[bluegirl123]

thanks for all the replies!

A few more questions then...

1) how does aquamarine wear compare to zircon? I figured if I went with a commerical zircon, it'll be so cheap, I can replace it once in a while?
2) when I look at aquamarine, it's so glass like -- I dont see the depth of colour I do with zircon or the tourmaline... does that make sense? Is it because I'm not looking at intensely coloured aquamarine?


I like the gemfix stones, but the round one I like is not blue enough. Regarding treatment, it sucks that there are no detectable methods for irradation. :-/

 

[T L]

thanks for all the replies!

A few more questions then...

1) how does aquamarine wear compare to zircon? I figured if I went with a commerical zircon, it'll be so cheap, I can replace it once in a while?
2) when I look at aquamarine, it's so glass like -- I dont see the depth of colour I do with zircon or the tourmaline... does that make sense? Is it because I'm not looking at intensely coloured aquamarine?


I like the gemfix stones, but the round one I like is not blue enough. Regarding treatment, it sucks that there are no detectable methods for irradation. :-/

1) Zircon is more brittle than aqua, but aqua does chip easily in my experience.
2) That's because it has a low refractive index, and yes, it does resemble glass to me as well. In the paler shades, this is even more evident. You have to get a good precision faceter that puts in lots of facets, to get some decent light play out of an aqua. Darker colored aqua has at least has some color to look at, so you're not looking at a dead, sickly, lifeless piece of glassy material. However, even darker aqua tends to be very greyish blue, and not sure if you want something less grey.

If you haven't noticed, I'm very biased against aqua. It's my birthstone and I've seen a million billion of them during my 20-something years of collecting and before that. I really don't like them, but you may find them attractive, so shop around.

 

[bluegirl123]

Thank you for the informative answers tourmaline_lover!

I have looked at aquamarines in the B&M stores and also at a local gem place --- have to admit, I just dont love them. I havent seen a precision cut one yet, but I dont know if I would be willing to spend the $$ to get one, when I just find the other stones, even natively cut to be so much prettier!

 

[kelpie]

Thank you for the informative answers tourmaline_lover!

I have looked at aquamarines in the B&M stores and also at a local gem place --- have to admit, I just dont love them. I havent seen a precision cut one yet, but I dont know if I would be willing to spend the $$ to get one, when I just find the other stones, even natively cut to be so much prettier!

Beryl tends to be sleepy so you have to love it for it's color which might not be the case for you and aquamarine. People don't buy fine emeralds for sparkle, they buy them because the color is enchanting.

 

[bluegirl123]

Yah... I guess I just dont like beryls then... I love sparkle hehe

One last question --- topaz. I know the shocker blues are irradiated, so I'm avoiding them. However, what about the natural blue topaz I see? for example on litnon http://litnon.com/index.php?page=view&cat=58

The pale colouring reminds me of aquamarines -- but I have one topaz (unfortunately, its colourless) and it seems really sparkly to me. would it look glasslike as well? and how does it compare in terms of wearability with ziron?

thanks everyone

 

[PrecisionGem]

TL, where have you heard about the Afghan tourmaline being irradiating? Non of the guys I talked to from Afghanistan at Tucson have heard of this. I wouldn't think that in Afghanistan there is the equipment required. I can't picture the rough being taken to China or Brazil, and then back to Afghanistan to be sold as rough again. That wouldn't make any sense, and certainly who ever had the rough treated, would cut it or have it cut, and not sell it as rough again.

Now blue zircon is a different story. There is one guy from Cambodia that I get some small blue zircon rough from. He tells me that his stones are only heated, but that the material that can be turned blue by only heat is pretty much depleted. The other zircon is more than heated to get the color, and it's not permanent.

Heating Aquamarine only removes the green, it doesn't darken the stone at all.

 

[LD]

Gene - I know it's a different country but the Rubellites from Mozambique have definitely been irradiated. I was told that by a gem buyer who was selling quite a lot of it. I have no idea whether the capability to do this was in Mozambique itself or elsewhere but I've always assumed it was in country. Not sure about the Afghan material though. Could that be sent to Mozambique? I know it's a long shot but ............

 

[T L]

TL, where have you heard about the Afghan tourmaline being irradiating? Non of the guys I talked to from Afghanistan at Tucson have heard of this. I wouldn't think that in Afghanistan there is the equipment required. I can't picture the rough being taken to China or Brazil, and then back to Afghanistan to be sold as rough again. That wouldn't make any sense, and certainly who ever had the rough treated, would cut it or have it cut, and not sell it as rough again.

Now blue zircon is a different story. There is one guy from Cambodia that I get some small blue zircon rough from. He tells me that his stones are only heated, but that the material that can be turned blue by only heat is pretty much depleted. The other zircon is more than heated to get the color, and it's not permanent.

Heating Aquamarine only removes the green, it doesn't darken the stone at all.

I was told of this on another site I can't link to here. Basically, this is what was said by some people that make it their business to study up on the latest treatments and where they're occuring. If only the treatment was detectable, it would be a different story, but it's not at this time. I was also told that the rough is irradiated too, so uncut stones are not safe either. Now, if only the colors had some telltale inclusions specific to those that are treated vs untreated, that would be helpful, but they're not. I've also tried to find some photos of irradiated indicolite, just to see if there was a specific shade or color, but again, I was told that even color is not a determination of irradiation or not, or color shift between blue to more green. It's really disconcerting. Until I learn more, I'm avoiding all indicolite and pink tourmaline.

Quote:
"Afghanistan is a mixed bag... much of the pinks are irradiated to achieve the darker colors, from what I have been told by a few over there is that the pinks are very light to almost white sometimes, then they irradiate them they become dark, then heat to lighten a bit and anneal the color so it is permanent. I am also told that some of the Indicolite there are being irradiated as well.

Brazil is a rather mixed bag as well, lots of irradiated pinks, reds, rubelites, green/yellows, and oranges. As well as indicolites. Don't forget about the watermelon tourmalines, lots are irradiated to get the red part of the crystal. But there are also lots that are supposedly not irradiated. I say supposedly because it is not really possible to detect this treatment, irradiation, at this point and time in tourmaline. So you need to know the source of the stone, where it has been, who cut it if you did not, etc. to really know if it has been irradiated or not.

Mozambique tourmalines, many are irradiated as well, but there are still just heated, and some totally untreated ones, coming out of there. Many of the pinks/rubelites from Mozambique will have some brown tones to them, they use heat to lighten the colors and subdue the brown hues. So if you find some with these brown hues in there, odds are it is NOT treated, not even heated.

USA tourmalines coming from the USA and not leaving the country to be sold, are NOT being treated by any methods, except sometimes heat.

I am not sure on other locales at this time, sorry. But if worried about irradiation then you would need to stay away from common irradiated colors, stick with stones that can be ID'ed as unheated, or stick with USA ones from a USA source, lol. But, as I stated above, since the treatment can NOT be detected in tourmaline currently and it causes no ill effects nor contains any residual radiation to worry about"

 

[PrecisionGem]

Well, TL, like I said, the smaller time dealers I work with from Afghanistan have not had experience with irradiated stones. The cost to do a small parcel wouldn't make any sense, just as when I see a miner in Africa with 8 stones wrapped up in some toilet paper, do you really think he irradiated them? I think maybe these larger cutting houses you deal with in Thailand on eBay could be a different story.

 

[T L]

Well, TL, like I said, the smaller time dealers I work with from Afghanistan have not had experience with irradiated stones. The cost to do a small parcel wouldn't make any sense, just as when I see a miner in Africa with 8 stones wrapped up in some toilet paper, do you really think he irradiated them? I think maybe these larger cutting houses you deal with in Thailand on eBay could be a different story.

My problem Gene is that this is a non-detectable treatment, and we are buying these stones based on complete trust of the supplier. I know some vendors have been burned before by trusting their suppliers. Therefore, for me, it's just not worth the risk anymore. Other people might feel it is, and that's their prerogative. Now I speak only for myself when I say I don't trust any vendor 100%, as I think verification is very important. I stick with stones I can id based on natural inclusions and ones that are not commonly treated, or have easily detectable treatment that does not alter the stone a great deal.

However, I will say the following for others, where treatment of stones is not that important as it is to me. For those people that love the color of a fine indicolite, pink tourmaline, or rubellite, and they don't care about treatment, then they should buy those gems if they love them. I am personally done with them. I am sad about it, as you and others have some lovely material, but that's life when you're a colored gem collector.

I also don't buy any more tourmaline, and definitely no more corundum, from any Thai seller, on ebay or otherwise.