Grammar Question re. Correct Pronoun

[Smith1942]

Spent a while typing out a response to the "Well, me, of course!" question and then the thread was closed.

Deb, are you still interested in this pronoun debate?? If so, read on. You told me I was wrong. If I am wrong I'd love to know, because then I will have learnt something new. But I think I'm right, for the following reasons.

So, the sentences for debate are these:

"Who makes the rules?"
"Well, me, of course!" - said by Ksinger

You said the sentence should have been: "Well, I, of course."

That's only correct if you insert a verb. So you would say "Well, I do, of course!" but "Well, me, of course!"

You are also correct to say "It is she" as the example you gave, because subject pronouns (nominative) follow linking verbs.

However, unmarked pronouns are object pronouns (accusative).

Unmarked pronouns appear in sentence fragments with no verb. For simplicity, pretend the reply is just "Me" because "Well" is a grammatically meaningless interjection, and "of course" is not a part of speech and is for emphasis. Its presence doesn't change the grammar of the sentence. Also, the fact that it's an answer to a question doesn't matter - it's a new sentence, not a clause, and the fact that it's an answer doesn't change its grammatical nature as a separate sentence. Or sentence fragment, in this case.

So:

"Who makes the rules?"
"I do." - Correct

"Who makes the rules?"
"Me." - Correct

"Who makes the rules?"
"Me do." - Incorrect

"Who makes the rules?"
"I." - Incorrect.


The same structure is seen in:

"Who wants cookies?"
"I do." - Correct

"Who wants cookies?"
"Me." - Correct

"Who wants cookies?"
"Me do." - Incorrect

"Who wants cookies?"
"I." - Incorrect

Unmarked pronouns take the object form. Imagine people at a party and someone says, "Who wants ice cream?" You wouldn't say, "Oooooh, I!" You'd say "Oooooooh, me!" or "Oooooooh, I do!"

So when Ksinger said, "Well, me, of course!" I think she was correct. You would be correct if you'd said "Well, I do, of course!"

I've just thoroughly bored myself typing all that out!

 

[HollyDolly]

I was going to respond on the Zimmerman thread to say:

Smith, I think living in the USA is turning you into an extreme english person! I've seen you write about all of the correct talking we do and language we use, class divides and all of the homework children have to do to pass 'government exams' that means they have no time to watch tv. None of which are really the case in normal day to day life in the UK. It makes me laugh (in a nice way, I certainly dont mean to offend you) when I read your assessment of life in England, its like you have been watching a combination of the good life and keeping up appearances!!

Keep it coming though, I like reading your views and posts :flowers:

 

[dragonfly411]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

 

[Smith1942]

I was going to respond on the Zimmerman thread to say:

Smith, I think living in the USA is turning you into an extreme english person! I've seen you write about all of the correct talking we do and language we use, class divides and all of the homework children have to do to pass 'government exams' that means they have no time to watch tv. None of which are really the case in normal day to day life in the UK. It makes me laugh (in a nice way, I certainly dont mean to offend you) when I read your assessment of life in England, its like you have been watching a combination of the good life and keeping up appearances!!

Keep it coming though, I like reading your views and posts :flowers:

Holly, I lived in the UK - and only in the UK - until I was 32. I go back frequently because our entire families are there. I can assure you that the things I say were my exact experiences of my native country and everyone around me. I only referred to the exams as "government" exams because I wasn't sure everyone would know what O and A Levels were. And we are not alone - the French have the same set-up with their bac. The bac and the A-Levels are known to be extremely hard and they take years, plus many months of revision, if you want to do well and get into a good university. (Of course, if you don't care about your education then they are easy.) The A-Level grades AAB are good enough for Oxford or Cambridge. The Germans and the Australians also have government-set exams which are very hard if you want to do well.

I am not telling you this because I've been watching the Good Life - I'm telling you because it's true. I lived in the UK for 32 years and have only been in the US for six years, travelling back often, so I don't think I need The Good Life to tell me what the UK is like!

When you move countries, you do contrast and compare. The differences are incredible - you can't help but notice. I worked on college textbooks at Pearson, the publisher, and have watched my American half-niece go through the American university system. I have worked as a book editor both here and in the UK. There are many aspects of the US which are far better than the UK. But the language and the education system are not two of those things. I have lived in both and worked in the field of language and education in both countries, and my husband's family has some members who were educated in the US and some who were educated in the UK. Having experienced both, we all think that language and education are two areas where the US falls woefully short compared to other developed nations.

France, Germany, the UK and Australia all have their desperately challenging government-set exams. Why doesn't the States demand these standards of its 18-year-olds, to bring it into line with its international competitors? Instead, you have to pay an absolute fortune to go to university and get the same level of education that we get free at school age 14-18. Your bachelor's degrees aren't even honours degrees, yet you have to pay so much money for them. In the UK you get a BA Hons, first-class, upper-second, lower-second, or Third class. A Third class degree is really bad and not worth having - no one would employ you with that. It's like getting a D. However, it's still an honours degree. What's even worse is not getting an honours degree. If you get lower than a third then you get a bachelor's degree, - or a BA Ord which stands for Ordinary - and that's considered a fail.

And...the reason all our degrees are automatically honours degrees is because we go to such a high level at school. That's also the reason that although the degrees are honours degrees, they are only three years, not four years like America. It's true that teenagers who want to do well do not have time to spend endless hours watching TV or playing with social media. My lot at school were all desperate to get into Oxford or Cambridge, and so they worked really hard. That was my experience. Some of them made it, some didn't. But they all got into good universities on the back of their efforts, not their ability to pay, and they didn't do it by immersing themselves in pop culture and using slang.

An American bachelor's degree is the equivalent of getting five grades A-C at O-Level, or GCSE, which are the government exams we take at 16. When I was editing college textbooks, I couldn't believe how simple they were relative to the age group, and I couldn't believe my niece was having to pay so much money to learn that stuff - stuff she would have learned at school, for free, at a much younger age in other developed countries.

I have known British people who moved to America and they loved it, but when it came to their kids' education, they went back to England. My late father-in-law, who died years before I met my husband, could be said to be a citizen of the world. He had Danish parents, was born in Ecuador and educated in England but lived thereafter in the States. He wouldn't have dreamed of educating his children in the States - they were all packed off to the UK. Quite right too!

Just joking - there are two big flaws with the British education system. Firstly, it only suits those who are academically bright. In Germany, vocational programmes are given just as much weight, and if you're a super-talented carpenter, you go on the right track to develop your skills to the max, whereas in the UK you struggle through a system which doesn't suit you, languishing near the bottom, which does nothing for your confidence.

Secondly, the British system specialises far too early, as we go very deep but very narrow. So, at 14 you choose your GCSE subjects that you will take at 16. From those subjects, you choose three for A-Level at 18. (I believe it's more these days.) Then from those three, you choose one to study at university. So we don't have the major/minor thing. I studied English, and only English.

That's the basic structure, although some people do two subjects at degree level, like English with Management. But there are no General Education requirements in the degree like my niece has just had to do at UNH. You don't go to study English and then find yourself studying basic maths - because you've already done all that at school. However, you start to go on your career path at 14 when you choose your GCSE subjects, which is far too early. The French spread the wealth a bit more, by taking numerous subjects in the bac, which also has more components than A- Levels. I believe the international bac - which you can take in America - is meant to be the hardest of the government-set exams among all the countries who have them.

The US is such a globally dominant, amazing superpower that I thought they'd lead the world in education as in so many other things. Huge shock when I found it wasn't the case, at least not below Master's degree level. Conversely, at the top level of education and research, America has some of the strongest brainpower in the world, pushing the boundaries of science and research at places like MIT. But the years of education up to and including bachelors degrees take much longer here and cost so much more. It's a really bad deal compared to the way the other countries I've mentioned do it. And the Master's degrees are two years! They are only one in the UK. Again, that's because so much more has been covered at an earlier age. American Master's degrees are the equivalent of UK BA Hons degrees. It's quite interesting when you look up the university requirements and conversions for international students applying to US colleges. Bit of an eye-opener.

Of course, part of the reason that a bachelor degree costs so much in America is because of the amazing sports facilities. Olympic-sized swimming pools, plush gyms, ice rinks, the works. I went to a famous outstanding uni in the UK, and do you know what the sum total of the sporting facilities was? A playing field. That was it. In the UK you are there only to learn so you don't have to pay a huge amount for all those incredible professional sports facilities. I wonder how many students in the US would love to pay a fraction of the amount for college and only have basic sports facilities. You could always pay $10 a month and go to Planet Fitness, and graduate with a lot less debt!

 

[Smith1942]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Your sentence contains a verb ("make") so it takes the subject pronoun "I", same rule as the answer "Well, I do, of course!" (Verb in bold.) But I realise that you do know not to say "Me make the rules" unless you're playing Tarzan and Jane in the bedroom I was just explaining the grammar behind it.

In the examples I wrote above, the reason - I believe - that Ksinger was right is because her answer didn't contain a verb. Still waiting for Deb to correct me on this! I do love to learn, and Deb seems hugely well-read and intelligent!

Question mark goes outside the quotes because it's not part of the quoted sentence.

 

[ksinger]

Spent a while typing out a response to the "Well, me, of course!" question and then the thread was closed.

Deb, are you still interested in this pronoun debate?? If so, read on. You told me I was wrong. If I am wrong I'd love to know, because then I will have learnt something new. But I think I'm right, for the following reasons.

So, the sentences for debate are these:

"Who makes the rules?"
"Well, me, of course!" - said by Ksinger

You said the sentence should have been: "Well, I, of course."

That's only correct if you insert a verb. So you would say "Well, I do, of course!" but "Well, me, of course!"

You are also correct to say "It is she" as the example you gave, because subject pronouns (nominative) follow linking verbs.

However, unmarked pronouns are object pronouns (accusative).

Unmarked pronouns appear in sentence fragments with no verb. For simplicity, pretend the reply is just "Me" because "Well" is a grammatically meaningless interjection, and "of course" is not a part of speech and is for emphasis. Its presence doesn't change the grammar of the sentence. Also, the fact that it's an answer to a question doesn't matter - it's a new sentence, not a clause, and the fact that it's an answer doesn't change its grammatical nature as a separate sentence. Or sentence fragment, in this case.

So:

"Who makes the rules?"
"I do." - Correct

"Who makes the rules?"
"Me." - Correct

"Who makes the rules?"
"Me do." - Incorrect

"Who makes the rules?"
"I." - Incorrect.


The same structure is seen in:

"Who wants cookies?"
"I do." - Correct

"Who wants cookies?"
"Me." - Correct

"Who wants cookies?"
"Me do." - Incorrect

"Who wants cookies?"
"I." - Incorrect

Unmarked pronouns take the object form. Imagine people at a party and someone says, "Who wants ice cream?" You wouldn't say, "Oooooh, I!" You'd say "Oooooooh, me!" or "Oooooooh, I do!"

So when Ksinger said, "Well, me, of course!" I think she was correct. You would be correct if you'd said "Well, I do, of course!"

I've just thoroughly bored myself typing all that out!

Thanks Smith1942. I appreciate your efforts. I checked this out too, yesterday, and decided that I didn't wish to add fuel to the prim little out-of-the-blue-let's-correct-a-debatable-point-of-grammar fest that yesterday and today have become.

Deb, I'm not sure why you decided you needed to do that, but it wasn't appreciated all that much, as I may have conveyed. My lighthearted reply got me a public kick in the teeth, and I was not really in the mood for it.

I correct my husband's pronunciation or grammar too from time to time, but I've known him for over 30 years, I do it when we're alone, and not at the actual or online equivalent of the pub in front of others. I used to think that stuff was important, but this is the internet, not an essay or a dissertation. Like many others, on the internet, I type as I would speak, which is pretty informally. I've also realized over the years that people usually don't appreciate public correction, and most definitely not from strangers, and that I am hardly so grammatically perfect that I can correct others with impunity, although I flatter myself that I'm not as rotten as Smith's examples. (Most of us aren't THAT bad Smith, and I say that living in the heart of redneck land). As for me, in the immortal words of I recall not who at the moment, "There but for the grace of God go me."

Enough said.

**Disclaimer: I wrote this quickly and sneakily at work. Any grammar/punctuation/tense/ errors are due to not having access to my old copy of "The Plain English Handbook", etc, etc.

 

[Smith1942]

Well, Deb is a very academic person - at least, that's the impression I get - and I'm a book editor. Some people just like to discuss and analyse things. For my part, I thought your sentence was right but I couldn't for the life of me think of the grammar rule, so I had to think about it for a bit - a process I found enjoyable, and during which I learned a little something.

I don't think I gave any rotten examples - obviously, no one would say "Me do" and I've never thought they would, US or UK - I was just demonstrating what happens when you invert the grammar rule. Carnage!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I'm not enough of a grammar nerd to weigh in, but I thought that in a situation where the verb is dropped, either an object or a subject pronoun can be used. Subject is considered formal and object is considered informal. Again, I could be completely wrong.

 

[Smith1942]

Interesting, NewEnglandLady, very interesting. Maybe this is a regional US/UK difference. So, if I go to a children's party, and the host says to a bunch of ten-year-olds, "Who wants ice cream?" is it likely, over here, that at least some of them would say "Oooooooh, I!" in place of "Ooooooh, me!" ? The first reply is the linking verb dropped and the subject pronoun continued, like you said you often use.

ETA: English grammar has lots of exceptions - for now I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the correct rule for the sentence that was originally under discussion ("Well, me, of course!") because otherwise I could make a prat of myself at work.

 

[Maria D]

Awwww, knowing Deb, I don't think she was trying to publicly correct your grammar ksinger! More likely she was just pointing out differences in styles of speech and was being just as lighthearted as you were. Even though we are technically strangers, we do have a relationship! You are known for being a grammar buff so one might have thought you'd enjoy a little playful back and forth. But I'll let Deb speak for herself of course.

I was enjoying the grammar discussion on the other thread, thanks for making it a stand alone thread Smith1942. I was about to say "bringing" it over to its own thread but then I wasn't sure if it should be "taking" it over...

 

[Smith1942]

Awwww, knowing Deb, I don't think she was trying to publicly correct your grammar ksinger! More likely she was just pointing out differences in styles of speech and was being just as lighthearted as you were. Even though we are technically strangers, we do have a relationship! You are known for being a grammar buff so one might have thought you'd enjoy a little playful back and forth. But I'll let Deb speak for herself of course.

I was enjoying the grammar discussion on the other thread, thanks for making it a stand alone thread Smith1942. I was about to say "bringing" it over to its own thread but then I wasn't sure if it should be "taking" it over...

Oh, wow - this is getting so interesting. I am not getting anything done today.

There are instances where "bring" and "take" is ambiguous, whether you speak British English or American English. In this instance, I think it should be "bringing" it over because you are on this thread replying, so you are in the same location as the thing that was brought.

If you were on a different thread, you might say, "Smith took the grammar discussion over to another thread - here's the link."

I'm thinking aloud here, sorry!

Agree that Deb probably didn't mean to be snipey. But like Maria, I'll let her speak for herself!

 

[packrat]

Hmph. You shoulda said "I'm gonna bring it over" so I could say "Now that you brung the discussion to a new thread.." hahahahahaha

 

[Smith1942]

Packrat, you're so naughty!!!

On my reply that I couldn't post because the other thread was closed, I said that your example of flowery language was very impressive and that you could obviously get your royalty on with the best of them!

 

[AGBF]

Awwww, knowing Deb, I don't think she was trying to publicly correct your grammar ksinger! More likely she was just pointing out differences in styles of speech and was being just as lighthearted as you were. Even though we are technically strangers, we do have a relationship! You are known for being a grammar buff so one might have thought you'd enjoy a little playful back and forth. But I'll let Deb speak for herself of course.

I was enjoying the grammar discussion on the other thread, thanks for making it a stand alone thread Smith1942. I was about to say "bringing" it over to its own thread but then I wasn't sure if it should be "taking" it over...

Actually it was meant as double entendre, which no one (except perhaps MariaD) appeared to get...a joke. You know? It could have meant "I", as in "one should use the nominative, not the accusative" (which I still actually believe) Or it could have meant "I" as in "AGBF" rather than "ksinger" get to decide on the rules...meaning I am the biggest kid on the block. (And by the way, those of you who seem to think I am humorless, I don't really think I am the bigger kid between ksinger and me. I am teasing about that, too. She is very erudite and probably has far better grammar than I do. It was supposed to be a joke.)

By the way, I never correct people's grammar on the 'net unless I am joking around. I see errors all the time, and not just careless ones. One poster who holds himself out as a grammar expert cannot tell the difference between "like" and "as". I notice it in his case because it seems so hypocritical that he says he is an expert, but constantly makes this error; but it isn't my affair. I wouldn't dream of correcting him. Only my own writing is my affair. When my own writing is completely misunderstood, as my joke above, I may get a tad riled up about it, however.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Smith1942]

I've just been back and seen your joke, but I didn't get it the first time! Silly moi. I just thought you were correcting her.

I was interested because I thought she was right, and I wanted to get to the bottom of it, given my line of work.

The phrase "It is I" is correct, yes. But I thought you were saying that "Well, me, of course!" is incorrect. Sorry!

Since coming to the States I've caught the like/as disease. It's most disfiguring! I had never heard "like" used for "as" before I came here but now it's wormed its way into my consciousness. I have to try to bash it out again. Deb, do you listen to the podcasts of Grammar Girl, or do you have her book, or ever look at her website? I find her very no-nonsense, sensible and approachable. Bit of a breath of fresh air. You might like her work, too, if you don't already know her. She deals with some easy stuff that you'd already know, probably, but she's got some great pearls of wisdom, too. Here's an example regarding the issue you just talked about:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/versus?page=all

 

[amc80]

I've just been back and seen your joke, but I didn't get it the first time! Silly moi. I just thought you were correcting her.

I was interested because I thought she was right, and I wanted to get to the bottom of it, given my line of work.

The phrase "It is I" is correct, yes. But I thought you were saying that "Well, me, of course!" is incorrect. Sorry!

Since coming to the States I've caught the like/as disease. It's most disfiguring! I had never heard "like" used for "as" before I came here but now it's wormed its way into my consciousness. I have to try to bash it out again. Deb, do you listen to the podcasts of Grammar Girl, or do you have her book, or ever look at her website? I find her very no-nonsense, sensible and approachable. Bit of a breath of fresh air. You might like her work, too, if you don't already know her. She deals with some easy stuff that you'd already know, probably, but she's got some great pearls of wisdom, too. Here's an example regarding the issue you just talked about:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/versus?page=all

Can you give an example of the like/as issue?

 

[Smith1942]

I've just been back and seen your joke, but I didn't get it the first time! Silly moi. I just thought you were correcting her.

I was interested because I thought she was right, and I wanted to get to the bottom of it, given my line of work.

The phrase "It is I" is correct, yes. But I thought you were saying that "Well, me, of course!" is incorrect. Sorry! ETA: Or maybe you were indeed saying that? I don't know, I'm confused!

Since coming to the States I've caught the like/as disease. It's most disfiguring! I had never heard "like" used for "as" before I came here but now it's wormed its way into my consciousness. I have to try to bash it out again. Deb, do you listen to the podcasts of Grammar Girl, or do you have her book, or ever look at her website? I find her very no-nonsense, sensible and approachable. Bit of a breath of fresh air. You might like her work, too, if you don't already know her. She deals with some easy stuff that you'd already know, probably, but she's got some great pearls of wisdom, too. Here's an example regarding the issue you just talked about:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/versus?page=all

Can you give an example of the like/as issue?

Oh, Grammar Girl discusses it really well in that link above. I think the first example is:

"It's like I'm sitting at my own computer,"

as opposed to

"It's as if I'm sitting at my own computer."

 

[zoebartlett]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Dragonfly, the question mark goes inside the quotation mark.

 

[missy]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Dragonfly, the question mark goes inside the quotation mark.

I think it depends where you live. UK and US have different rules regarding this issue.

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/quotation-marks-periods-and-commas

 

[amc80]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Dragonfly, the question mark goes inside the quotation mark.

I think it depends where you live. UK and US have different rules regarding this issue.

I thought it was outside...but I'm no expert.

"It's like I'm sitting at my own computer,"

as opposed to

"It's as if I'm sitting at my own computer."

Huh, I never knew there was a rule to this...off to read!

 

[zoebartlett]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Dragonfly, the question mark goes inside the quotation mark.

I think it depends where you live. UK and US have different rules regarding this issue.

Thanks, Missy. After I posted, I looked it up and I see differing opinions. I tried to delete my post but it was too late.

 

[missy]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Dragonfly, the question mark goes inside the quotation mark.

I think it depends where you live. UK and US have different rules regarding this issue.

Thanks, Missy. After I posted, I looked it up and I see differing opinions. I tried to delete my post but it was too late.

You're welcome. I edited my post to include a link with some of the rules.

 

[Smith1942]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Dragonfly, the question mark goes inside the quotation mark.

It doesn't, because "Me make the rules" isn't a question. The question is Dragonfly's and doesn't belong to the part of the sentence in quotes.

As the American grammar Bible, Chicago Manual of Style 16 says on p.310, "...question marks follow closing quotation marks unless they belong within the quoted matter."

(I just quoted Chicago because I didn't think I'd be believed otherwise. )

 

[AGBF]

Deb, do you listen to the podcasts of Grammar Girl, or do you have her book, or ever look at her website? I find her very no-nonsense, sensible and approachable. Bit of a breath of fresh air. You might like her work, too, if you don't already know her. She deals with some easy stuff that you'd already know, probably, but she's got some great pearls of wisdom, too. Here's an example regarding the issue you just talked about:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/versus?page=all

I had never heard of her, Smith. The website is cute, though. I am going to trade you a website for the one you so kindly gave me. I really should sift through some of this info. rather than make you wade through it, but as a grammar buff, I suspect you will enjoy the entire site. I did.

Fun grammar site...http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/cases.htm

Hugs,
Deb

 

[Smith1942]

Smith
Here's where I find your rule confusing. Would you say "I make the rules." or would you say "Me make the rules"?

Hell, I can't even decide where to put the question mark.

Tricky tricky.

Dragonfly, the question mark goes inside the quotation mark.

I think it depends where you live. UK and US have different rules regarding this issue.

Thanks, Missy. After I posted, I looked it up and I see differing opinions. I tried to delete my post but it was too late.

There are differing opinions regarding the location of certain punctuation marks, but question marks isn't one of them.

There are US/UK differences in where to place commas and periods, but the treatment of question marks is the same in terms of quotations. In neither system is it correct to put a question mark as part of the quotation when it isn't.

To borrow a Chicago example:

Which of Shakespeare's characters said, "All the world's a stage"?

The question mark is not part of the Shakespeare quotation so it goes outside the marks. To put it inside is to misquote Shakespeare. And "Me make the rules" was never a question, so again the question mark goes outside the quotation marks. This is the same in the US and UK.

ETA: Someone posted a Grammar Girl link above. On the first page it discusses how there are placement differences with commas and periods, and on the second page it says this about question marks:

"When combining exclamation points and question marks with quotation marks, however, Americans follow the same logical system as the British. Where you place the other marks relative to the quotation mark depends on the context of the quotation."

 

[Smith1942]

Deb, do you listen to the podcasts of Grammar Girl, or do you have her book, or ever look at her website? I find her very no-nonsense, sensible and approachable. Bit of a breath of fresh air. You might like her work, too, if you don't already know her. She deals with some easy stuff that you'd already know, probably, but she's got some great pearls of wisdom, too. Here's an example regarding the issue you just talked about:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/versus?page=all

I had never heard of her, Smith. The website is cute, though. I am going to trade you a website for the one you so kindly gave me. I really should sift through some of this info. rather than make you wade through it, but as a grammar buff, I suspect you will enjoy the entire site. I did.

Fun grammar site...http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/cases.htm

Hugs,
Deb

Ooooooh, thanks Deb! I'm not going to get any sleep tonight now.

 

[packrat]

Packrat, you're so naughty!!!

On my reply that I couldn't post because the other thread was closed, I said that your example of flowery language was very impressive and that you could obviously get your royalty on with the best of them!

Hahaha, not bad for a Midwestern hick eh?

And to me, the phrase "It is I" is then followed by "The Count. They call me The Count because I love to count things, ah ah ah!"

 

[Smith1942]

Packrat, you're so naughty!!!

On my reply that I couldn't post because the other thread was closed, I said that your example of flowery language was very impressive and that you could obviously get your royalty on with the best of them!

Hahaha, not bad for a Midwestern hick eh?

And to me, the phrase "It is I" is then followed by "The Count. They call me The Count because I love to count things, ah ah ah!"

What have you been reading - some Gothic horror novel??

 

[AGBF]

Deb, are you still interested in this pronoun debate??

If so, read on. You told me I was wrong. If I am wrong I'd love to know, because then I will have learnt something new. But I think I'm right, for the following reasons.

So, the sentences for debate are these:

"Who makes the rules?"
"Well, me, of course!" - said by Ksinger

You said the sentence should have been: "Well, I, of course."

I just brought up your original posting, Smith, to see if I can try to tackle this head-on.

Here is information from the website I liked so much:

"In formal or academic text, we need the nominative or subject form of the pronoun after a linking verb: 'It was he who represented the United Nations during the 1960s,' 'That must be she on the dock over there.' In casual speech and writing, however, that sounds awfully stuffy. Imagine the detective who's been looking for the victim's body for days. He jimmies open the trunk of an abandoned car and exclaims, 'It's she!' No self-respecting detective since Sherlock Holmes would say such a thing.

When the personal pronoun follows except, but, than, or as, you've got an argument on your hands. Traditionally, these words have been regarded as conjunctions and the personal pronoun that follows has been regarded as the subject of a clause (which might not be completed). Thus 'No one could be as happy as I.' (If you provide the entire mechanism of the clause — 'as I [am]' — you see the justification for the subject form.) The same goes for these other conjunctions: 'Whom were you expecting? who else but he?' 'My father is still taller than she' [than she is]."

I am saying that the reason that one could argue that the excruciatingly correct grammatical response to the question, "Who makes the rules?" should be, "I" rather than "me" because the "do" is implied (as the grammar site I just linked to says that the verb traditionally is). Thus the "I" is the subject of the clause and the nominative must be used for the subject. The implied, "do" is the predicate of the clause.

AGBF

 

[ksinger]

Well, Deb is a very academic person - at least, that's the impression I get - and I'm a book editor. Some people just like to discuss and analyse things. For my part, I thought your sentence was right but I couldn't for the life of me think of the grammar rule, so I had to think about it for a bit - a process I found enjoyable, and during which I learned a little something.

I don't think I gave any rotten examples - obviously, no one would say "Me do" and I've never thought they would, US or UK - I was just demonstrating what happens when you invert the grammar rule. Carnage!

Well, I hardly thought what I said even amounted to a sentence. It was more like (warning: semi-ancient cultural reference that will date me) OOO! OOO! Mr. Kotter!! ME! ME!!

I was referring to the examples in the other thread, most of which were pretty egregious, such as our supposed problems with "bring" versus "take", our supposed inability to get tense correct, and the assertion that we don't use past participle.

This is unfair, and tarring with far too broad a brush, IMO. Some, and really not even that many, Americans do just that, but as I mentioned before, even living in a poor mostly rural state, I rarely hear the grammar errors you are pointing out as common. Where ARE you, may I ask? Now, I DO hear some other regionalisms that would likely make your ears bleed, but for the most part we can use tenses just fine, even in these here parts. Really.

Even as the plutocracy tightens its hold, being American is still very much tied up with being informal and (as they say here) "not gettin' above yer raisin'", which I will tranlsate into more understandable formal English for you as, "Don't try acting or speaking as if you're above your station." We are, after all, all about the common man, right? I can speak and write much more formally and precisely than I do most of the time. Back in the day, I was taught English by my mother, who was a product of the Catholic parochial school system, and they took English very seriously indeed. I've admittedly gone to seed in some ways when it comes to things grammatical, but then I haven't read ye old "Plain English Handbook" in about 30 years either. I once could diagram any sentence, but now I would not know a dangling participle if you beat me with it. I'm relying on memory, and that isn't always reliable in a world where adverbs are going the way of the dodo, and even I use IM to say to my friends, "S'up?"