GIA to grade Labs Pass /Fail... 4 C's for Naturals only.

[Rockdiamond]

Again, just my experience

And thank you for sharing!!
Of course there are a lot of other possible reasons.
A lot of natural diamonds can look grey or dull in rings on peoples fingers…. Even wealth folks diamonds get dirty… hahah

Or- they could easily have been clean, yet dull grey natural stones.
I’ve only been to Italy once. I adored it!

Just didn’t see a lot of stones ( especially larger than 1ct) in stores or like what we see on people in the states.

Bottom line is (again) it’s not possible to conclusively know if a diamond was mined or man made without very expensive equipment.
Garry has said that if he sees a piece with no fluorescent diamonds, he’s sure it’s lab grown. I wouldn’t go that far. But of course he’s not saying he can spot labs based on normal appearance.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

It’s my understanding that if an examines a diamond through a loupe and there are no inclusions, jeweler would generally assume it is a lab-grown diamond. I am no expert whatsoever, but my guess is that since a, say, D color 1.5-2-carat diamond with excellent quality and AGS triple zero or close to it would cost probably a minimum of $40,000, and most average folk are not walking around with $40,000 diamonds on their finger, a jeweler would assume a stone with those qualities was created in a lab. Sounds logical to me.

A jeweler has to assume practically every diamond is lab grown today. But with a loupe the large majority of them can be identified quickly by simply reading the inscription. (A natural diamond will not feature a lab grown inscription!)

Stones without inscription, or with inscription covered - say in a bezel, can be identified by other means, including by observing their inclusions, fluorescence, and using a modern diamond testing device (combinations of tests are more definitive).

In some cases where the stone is clean and colorless and type 2 with no inscription indicating lab grown, the stone may be referred to a gemological laboratory for final determination.

 

[Rockdiamond]

A jeweler has to assume practically every diamond is lab grown today

Bingo!!
If it doesn’t have a GIA report and I know and can verify the source….. I assume lab.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

A jeweler has to assume practically every diamond is lab grown today. But with a loupe the large majority of them can be identified quickly by simply reading the inscription. (A natural diamond will not feature a lab grown inscription!)

Stones without inscription, or with inscription covered - say in a bezel, can be identified by other means, including by observing their inclusions, fluorescence, and using a modern diamond testing device (combinations of tests are more definitive).

In some cases where the stone is clean and colorless and type 2 with no inscription indicating lab grown, the stone may be referred to a gemological laboratory for final determination.

Could you explain a bit more what you mean about observing inclusions to determine if a diamond is lab or natural? As in, does that mean that they have different types of inclusions?

 

[purplesilk]

Could you explain a bit more what you mean about observing inclusions to determine if a diamond is lab or natural? As in, does that mean that they have different types of inclusions?

Very interesting article by our beloved brilliant John Pollard

Inclusions Seen in Lab Grown Diamonds

There are two ways of producing lab-grown diamonds. These different approaches produce inclusions which differ from those in natural diamonds.

www.igi.org

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Could you explain a bit more what you mean about observing inclusions to determine if a diamond is lab or natural? As in, does that mean that they have different types of inclusions?

Yes, they often have discernible inclusions that are indicative of natural or lab grown. For example, lab grown may have inclusions of the metalic flux that is used in the growth chamber. You see on many reports the term "growth remnant" which is a general term for an inclusion that does not occur in natural diamonds. And there are certain types of crystal inclusions in natural diamonds that would never occur in lab grown.

Having said that, determining the identity of inclusions does take training and experience. So not every jeweler should make conclusive ID on the basis of inclusions alone. There can be some ambiguous types that can potentially be misidentified.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

The issue with this is that we have no context. When you say they looked “off”… what specifically was the issue?
Were the stones loose or set?
Were the stones being shown by a seller?
When was this?
It’s getting harder and harder to find funky colored labs as the overall general quality has improved. Also- remember I’ve seen all sorts of funky natural diamonds as well over the years.
Bottom line - it’s not possible to conclusively tell without expensive testing equipment. Not possible by eye. Period.

The three times I’ve seen lab diamonds (that I knew were definitively labs):

1) loose lab growns, G and/or H colour grade (IGI cert), 2ct size. I was looking for stones for studs. They had a weird steely grey colour that was subtle and unmistakable. I saw them in multiple lighting conditions. I also saw some higher colour ones that I wouldn’t have been able to tell the difference, though. This was around a year or year and a half ago, maybe? I remember I posted when I saw them.

2) lab growns set in studs, again 2ct size. They looked kind of dull but not like how unclean diamonds look dull. Again had a weird colour to them - not grey but more blue I guess? Like just a tiny hint of blue. Also at a different lab grown vendor, I saw these only in the store under the jeweller lights as I wasn’t allowed to take them anywhere. Around the same time as the first instance.

3) met someone who was wearing a pair of studs that looked off to me. This is the one where I can’t explain what I mean by off. I just mean that the sparkle wasn’t right, like there wasn’t enough depth to the sparkle. Maybe it was just badly cut, but I’ve never seen that before on anyone. She candidly told me she was wearing labs in her ears and wrist (she was wearing a tennis bracelet) without my asking. I thought the tennis bracelet was indistinguishable but the earrings had seemed off to me.

I’m caveat-ing this by saying I’ve likely seen a bunch of labs that I couldn’t differentiate from natural and therefore it’s not like I have a superpower, but I also do think that the crappy ones do look off and you can tell by looking. Maybe naturals with the same effects also do exist but since I’ve never seen them before and have seen labs like that, I attribute that characteristic to labs?

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

Yes, they often have discernible inclusions that are indicative of natural or lab grown. For example, lab grown may have inclusions of the metalic flux that is used in the growth chamber. You see on many reports the term "growth remnant" which is a general term for an inclusion that does not occur in natural diamonds. And there are certain types of crystal inclusions in natural diamonds that would never occur in lab grown.

Having said that, determining the identity of inclusions does take training and experience. So not every jeweler should make conclusive ID on the basis of inclusions alone. There can be some ambiguous types that can potentially be misidentified.

This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for answering my question!

Very interesting article by our beloved brilliant John Pollard

Inclusions Seen in Lab Grown Diamonds

There are two ways of producing lab-grown diamonds. These different approaches produce inclusions which differ from those in natural diamonds.

www.igi.org

Super interesting read!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Excellent article by Sir John!!

Having said that, determining the identity of inclusions does take training and experience.

From my perspective, having worked with imperfect diamonds for much of my career:
Based on the photos, none of the imperfections John points out is impossible in a natural diamond.
I've seen everything over the years...diamonds with garnets inside.
Now that might convince me a stone was natural. But I still would not stake my reputation on it.
As someone in the business, I think it's incumbent upon me to ensure I can back up my statements to clients.
For consumers, if you think you can spot lab diamonds, have at it!
Due to the price, it's far more crucial to identify a mined diamond as such, as opposed to lab.
At this point, I consider everything to be lab, unless I know from whence it came.
I advise consumers likewise.

 

[DejaWiz]

Excellent article by Sir John!!


From my perspective, having worked with imperfect diamonds for much of my career:
Based on the photos, none of the imperfections John points out is impossible in a natural diamond.
I've seen everything over the years...diamonds with garnets inside.
Now that might convince me a stone was natural. But I still would not stake my reputation on it.
As someone in the business, I think it's incumbent upon me to ensure I can back up my statements to clients.
For consumers, if you think you can spot lab diamonds, have at it!
Due to the price, it's far more crucial to identify a mined diamond as such, as opposed to lab.
At this point, I consider everything to be lab, unless I know from whence it came.
I advise consumers likewise.

Great advice, David - and I would take it a step further...

Regardless of whether it's a lab grown or natural made diamond, know whence it came because a diamond of either origin can be extremely great quality, extremely bad quality, or anywhere in between.

 

[kenny]

The idiocy of GIA's anti-consumer choices, especially now that they could fully implement the far superior AGS cut grading system full-swing and create a true industry benchmark for the entire globe, never ceases to amaze me...

I agree that AGS's system is superior to GIA's if the goal is the final customers getting diamonds with the best light performance.

But ... "Far superior" for whom?
GIA's bottom line?
Or diamonds' final customers, as in you and I? ... whom BTW are not GIA's customers.
Rather, we are the ultimate customer's of GIA's direct customers, the companies who pay GIA to grade their diamonds.

Even a (so-called) non-profit shouldn't bite the hand that directly feeds it.

 

[oldminer]

The GIA Lab is a for profit enterprise. The GIA is otherwise a Non-Profit entity, but not the Lab.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I agree that AGS's system is superior to GIA's if the goal is the final customers getting diamonds with the best light performance.

But ... "Far superior" for whom?
GIA's bottom line?
Or diamonds' final customers, as in you and I? ... whom BTW are not GIA's customers.
Rather, we are the ultimate customer's of GIA's direct customers, the companies who pay GIA to grade their diamonds.

Even a (so-called) non-profit shouldn't bite the hand that directly feeds it.

It's true that although GIA's mission is CONSUMER education and protection, the lab's paying customers are for the most part trade members, in particular diamond manufacturers. So there is some inherent conflict of interest.

I do believe GIA seeks above all else to be true to their mission. So they have to take a "first, do no harm" approach to any changes to their status quo. And at times they seem paralyzed by trying to balance the priorities of a wide-ranging global network of clients. Their due dilligence process takes a lot longer than other labs catering to smaller or less diverse constituencies.

They are like an aircraft carrier that likes to travel in a straight line, and is not great at making quick manuevers!

 

[Gypsy]

It is interesting. I am looking for a MMD after years of wearing and working with real diamonds. I don't have an opinion on the GIA issue. Corporations are mostly a**holes. But regarding MMD versus natural earth mined. It comes down to opportunity cost and purpose for me.

1. Opportunity cost: the cost of everything has gone up. Salaries have stayed stagnant. Diamonds aren't a need. An engagement ring may be perceived as a need for some (myself included) but the that need can now be filled by something that has the similar basic material and properties for much less. It's as durable. It throws white light. And, if purchased through a reputable jeweler with a good eye and screening can be largely indistinguishable from the real thing. And very beautiful. So they are here to stay.

2. Purpose. What is the point of owning jewelry? Joy. If the MMD brings you as much joy (or even more because for 4k you can get a beautiful custom ring AND that vacation you wanted) what is the point of earth mined? For me there is no point except bragging rights. And I am not a bragging type, I don't buy things for status or to incite envy in others. And exclusivity holds no appeal for me. I want everyone to have beautiful things they love.

That's why I am going for MMD over earth mined. As for accurate grading. I really HOPE that any E or F I buy is an accurately graded G or H. Because I prefer warmer diamonds. As for inclusions, if it's not dangerous and I can't see it I don't care, and never have. I'm not actually much of a center stone girl, I've discovered. I just need well cut so my OCD isn't triggered. I am a jewelry and settings girl. So going with MMD actually let's me have the much nicer setting and design I want over the center. It's just priorities.

 

[Chelsea Palmer]

It is interesting. I am looking for a MMD after years of wearing and working with real diamonds. I don't have an opinion on the GIA issue. Corporations are mostly a**holes. But regarding MMD versus natural earth mined. It comes down to opportunity cost and purpose for me.

1. Opportunity cost: the cost of everything has gone up. Salaries have stayed stagnant. Diamonds aren't a need. An engagement ring may be perceived as a need for some (myself included) but the that need can now be filled by something that has the similar basic material and properties for much less. It's as durable. It throws white light. And, if purchased through a reputable jeweler with a good eye and screening can be largely indistinguishable from the real thing. And very beautiful. So they are here to stay.

2. Purpose. What is the point of owning jewelry? Joy. If the MMD brings you as much joy (or even more because for 4k you can get a beautiful custom ring AND that vacation you wanted) what is the point of earth mined? For me there is no point except bragging rights. And I am not a bragging type, I don't buy things for status or to incite envy in others. And exclusivity holds no appeal for me. I want everyone to have beautiful things they love.

That's why I am going for MMD over earth mined. As for accurate grading. I really HOPE that any E or F I buy is an accurately graded G or H. Because I prefer warmer diamonds. As for inclusions, if it's not dangerous and I can't see it I don't care, and never have. I'm not actually much of a center stone girl, I've discovered. I just need well cut so my OCD isn't triggered. I am a jewelry and settings girl. So going with MMD actually let's me have the much nicer setting and design I want over the center. It's just

One thing to note is that MMDs ARE real diamonds. They’re real diamonds in the same way earth-mined diamonds are.

 

[Gypsy]

Chelsea, good point. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't.

 

[Chelsea Palmer]

Chelsea, good point. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't.

If you haven’t already, I hope you find the LGD of your dreams. I know I did.

 

[freddyboston]

Morristown Daily Voice calls them "Fake"



Wentzel sold lab-grown diamonds as genuine diamonds and overvalued the worth and price of the jewelry by as much as $23,800, police said.
He is charged with theft by deception, criminal simulation, and falsifying or tampering with a record, police said.

Morristown Jeweler Sold Lab-Grown Diamonds As Genuine, Misrepresented Value: Cops

A 43-year-old Morristown jeweler was arrested and charged with selling fake diamonds, authorities in Mount Olive announced Tuesday, Aug. 12.On Tuesday, June 17, a victim told officers that Justin Wentzel, of Morristown, sold them three pie…

dailyvoice.com

I do like the term "Criminal Simulation"
"The crime of criminal simulation is designed to prevent deception and fraud by ensuring that consumers and businesses are not misled by fake or counterfeit goods. By making objects seem more valuable or authentic than they are, individuals can be defrauded or harmed, and the integrity of the marketplace can be undermined"

 

[Gypsy]

Adapt or Die.

Exclusivity sells. Problem is: diamonds had no real competition and, unlike rubies and emeralds or sapphires: they aren’t that rare. If they were rare then it wouldn’t be such a problem. And they have the whole blood diamond issue and the younger generations are more sensitive to that kind of corruption, and less willing to overlook it. So, it is understandable why they feel threatened. There is nothing more symbolic than the diamond trade for illustrating the evils of capitalism. Gross and mass indifference to human life, check. Utterly frivolous? Synonymous with luxury and status, and classism? Check, check, check and check.. Monopoly? Price inflation? Check. Supported by and supportive to apartheid? Check.

Let me tell you, if we have another world war the anticapitalists will consider it a choice target.

I mean? Just reading that makes me ashamed I even have natural diamonds. And I am 50. Best thing lab diamonds can do is launch social media ads about that history. And then the natural diamond market may never recover. GIA would be better off staying neutral, rather than picking a side.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

You would wish the natural mined diamond industry to disappear? Go broke and be gone?

 

[Gypsy]

You would wish the natural mined diamond industry to disappear? Go broke and be gone?

That’s a strawman fallacy. Do not misrepresent and distort my position by exaggerating it in an attempt to knock it down. Either discuss it on its merits or simply say you disagree.


The natural diamond industry will never be gone, that is hyperbolic. Some people have to have the real thing. Not the replica. And that’s fine. But I would like to see it more neck and neck in public perception and pricing. Diamond prices and status are artificially inflated thanks in large part to the dirty dealing of DB- they are not rare, So yes I’d like the industry to lose those ill gotten gains, the fruit of the poisonous tree. I’d like to see pop culture icons engaged with lab diamonds, and for lab diamonds to not necessarily a budget decision but instead a decision based on other factors. Free markets are better for competition. Monopoly is unhealthy and encourages stagnation and is the enemy of progress.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

That’s a strawman fallacy. Do not misrepresent and distort my position by exaggerating it in an attempt to knock it down. Either discuss it on its merits or simply say you disagree.


The natural diamond industry will never be gone, that is hyperbolic. Some people have to have the real thing. Not the replica. And that’s fine. But I would like to see it more neck and neck in public perception and pricing. Diamond prices and status are artificially inflated thanks in large part to the dirty dealing of DB- they are not rare, So yes I’d like the industry to lose those ill gotten gains, the fruit of the poisonous tree. I’d like to see pop culture icons engaged with lab diamonds, and for lab diamonds to not necessarily a budget decision but instead a decision based on other factors. Free markets are better for competition. Monopoly is unhealthy and encourages stagnation and is the enemy of progress.

Love to debate the diamonds not rare thing Gypsy. and nice to see you back BTW.
About half the worlds diamond mines are currently at risk of closing up or have already.
Demand dropping (LGD and China property crash) by about 20% and prices by 30% means they are not viable.
Little to no prospecting.
There are no safes full of diamonds - there is reportedly about $1.8B in the pipeline and supply is probably less than demand. Miners reduce mining in times like these so the diamonds are still in the ground.
Your El Presidento is also having an effect.
I made this chart - I think we are in about the middle.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The GIA Lab is a for profit enterprise. The GIA is otherwise a Non-Profit entity, but not the Lab.

Pretty sure the GIA pays no tax on earnings in the USA but they are forced too in many other countries where they operate - especially India.

 

[Chelsea Palmer]

Morristown Daily Voice calls them "Fake"



Wentzel sold lab-grown diamonds as genuine diamonds and overvalued the worth and price of the jewelry by as much as $23,800, police said.
He is charged with theft by deception, criminal simulation, and falsifying or tampering with a record, police said.

Morristown Jeweler Sold Lab-Grown Diamonds As Genuine, Misrepresented Value: Cops

A 43-year-old Morristown jeweler was arrested and charged with selling fake diamonds, authorities in Mount Olive announced Tuesday, Aug. 12.On Tuesday, June 17, a victim told officers that Justin Wentzel, of Morristown, sold them three pie…

dailyvoice.com

I do like the term "Criminal Simulation"
"The crime of criminal simulation is designed to prevent deception and fraud by ensuring that consumers and businesses are not misled by fake or counterfeit goods. By making objects seem more valuable or authentic than they are, individuals can be defrauded or harmed, and the integrity of the marketplace can be undermined"

The Morristown paper referring to LGDs as “fake” does not make it so. Newspapers frequently make mistakes. They have corrections and omissions pages to address these errors. Perhaps in a subsequent issue, they will address their error.

 

[Chelsea Palmer]

That’s a strawman fallacy. Do not misrepresent and distort my position by exaggerating it in an attempt to knock it down. Either discuss it on its merits or simply say you disagree.


The natural diamond industry will never be gone, that is hyperbolic. Some people have to have the real thing. Not the replica. And that’s fine. But I would like to see it more neck and neck in public perception and pricing. Diamond prices and status are artificially inflated thanks in large part to the dirty dealing of DB- they are not rare, So yes I’d like the industry to lose those ill gotten gains, the fruit of the poisonous tree. I’d like to see pop culture icons engaged with lab diamonds, and for lab diamonds to not necessarily a budget decision but instead a decision based on other factors. Free markets are better for competition. Monopoly is unhealthy and encourages stagnation and is the enemy of progress.

That’s a strawman fallacy. Do not misrepresent and distort my position by exaggerating it in an attempt to knock it down. Either discuss it on its merits or simply say you disagree.


The natural diamond industry will never be gone, that is hyperbolic. Some people have to have the real thing. Not the replica. And that’s fine. But I would like to see it more neck and neck in public perception and pricing. Diamond prices and status are artificially inflated thanks in large part to the dirty dealing of DB- they are not rare, So yes I’d like the industry to lose those ill gotten gains, the fruit of the poisonous tree. I’d like to see pop culture icons engaged with lab diamonds, and for lab diamonds to not necessarily a budget decision but instead a decision based on other factors. Free markets are better for competition. Monopoly is unhealthy and encourages stagnation and is the enemy of progress.

Well-stated, Gypsy. Excellent post. Of course, however, LGDs are not replicas. They’re just a diamond formed in a different way. Even for me, a recent owner of a gorgeous LGD,I still struggle with realizing that it’s truly and actually a diamond. But it is.

 

[Gypsy]

Love to debate the diamonds not rare thing Gypsy. and nice to see you back BTW.
About half the worlds diamond mines are currently at risk of closing up or have already.
Demand dropping (LGD and China property crash) by about 20% and prices by 30% means they are not viable.
Little to no prospecting.
There are no safes full of diamonds - there is reportedly about $1.8B in the pipeline and supply is probably less than demand. Miners reduce mining in times like these so the diamonds are still in the ground.
Your El Presidento is also having an effect.
I made this chart - I think we are in about the middle.

Hello Gary, and thank you. Please do not call that man mine in anyway. I am team 8647 and always have been.

I would blame late stage capitalism (and 47 is the poster child). If billionaires and their ilk weren’t destroying the balance of the economy so multitudes of people are going without basic necessities and struggling to stay housed and fed, then we’d all have more money for luxuries and demand would go up. But here we are: with the 1% strangling the rest of us. Lab diamonds hitting the market at just this time and it is hastening and magnifying it. But they aren’t at the core of the problem.

 

[Gypsy]

Well-stated, Gypsy. Excellent post. Of course, however, LGDs are not replicas. They’re just a diamond formed in a different way. Even for me, a recent owner of a gorgeous LGD,I still struggle with realizing that it’s truly and actually a diamond. But it is.

Thank you Chelsea. And yes, I know. I have just bought an LGD myself and it is a real diamond in material. I was using the word replica in an illustrative way but I should have used the words “original” and “inspired by.” We can’t all afford $$$ luxuries and so there is a huge market for ‘inspired by’ items that are real items but not named branded as the original inspiration. For me, natural diamonds are becoming like branded goods. ‘Natural’ or ‘Earth Mined” being the brand, by way of metaphor. With lab diamonds coming in, they are the real thing, without the branding. They are the “inspired by.” I have never been a high designer brand girl, rather I will buy brands or unbranded items that are more midrange or preowned with a focus on craftsmanship and quality. So for me and people like me, lab diamonds make sense. But there are always people who will want the original.

 

[Chelsea Palmer]

Thank you Chelsea. And yes, I know. I have just bought an LGD myself and it is a real diamond in material. I was using the word replica in an illustrative way but I should have used the words “original” and “inspired by.” We can’t all afford $$$ luxuries and so there is a huge market for ‘inspired by’ items that are real items but not named branded as the original inspiration. For me, natural diamonds are becoming like branded goods. ‘Natural’ or ‘Earth Mined” being the brand, by way of metaphor. With lab diamonds coming in, they are the real thing, without the branding. They are the “inspired by.” I have never been a high designer brand girl, rather I will buy brands or unbranded items that are more midrange or preowned with a focus on craftsmanship and quality. So for me and people like me, lab diamonds make sense. But there are always people who will want the original.

I hope you are enjoying your LGD purchase. I consider LGDs and mined diamonds to both be diamonds, which they are! I think, and this includes myself, is it difficult to comprehend that there is now a second source to procure a diamond. For all our lives, diamonds had to be purchased in a mall jewelry store where, for a few thousand dollars, you didn’t necessarily get a very nice diamond, or you had to really cough up tens of thousands of dollars to get a beautiful diamond. Now that is no longer the case. It really is difficult to grasp that though. That’s why I think a lot of people, without even realizing it, tend to refer to LGDs as something less than a diamond. For me, it is not about the money. Not about not having it anyway. While I don’t have tens of thousands of dollars laying around to purchase mined diamonds, I would never purchase another mined diamond again, even if I had all the money in the world. I would never spend more for something that I could get for less. If a damn-near flawless natural 2-carat mined diamond cost $50,000, and a damn-near flawless 2-carat LGD cost $2000, or even $3000, I’m going for the LGD every time. I do, however, feel bad about folks who make their living mining diamonds. I know there’s a lot of controversy about the industry, but I hate to see anybody lose their livelihood.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

Gypsy, forgive my awkward wording, I did not mean to distort or misrepresent your position. I spoke with you years ago when you worked for HPD and you had such passion. I was taken aback my your remarks and was trying to figure out how you got from there to here, certainly not to knock it down.
The abuses of the natural diamond industry can't be ignored by anyone with a conscience. Unfortunately so many things we enjoy have a dark side, mistreatment of people and animals.

 

[Chelsea Palmer]

Gypsy, forgive my awkward wording, I did not mean to distort or misrepresent your position. I spoke with you years ago when you worked for HPD and you had such passion. I was taken aback my your remarks and was trying to figure out how you got from there to here, certainly not to knock it down.
The abuses of the natural diamond industry can't be ignored by anyone with a conscience. Unfortunately so many things we enjoy have a dark side, mistreatment of people and animals.

And the mistreatment of Planet Earth. And I don’t mean just diamond mines, of course.