Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

GIA 2.06 G SI1 v. GIA 2.17 G SI2 Triple Ex.

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
S

shmurgshmurg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36

Hello everyone,


I would like your opinion.


Let us assume that I could purchase a GIA 2.06 G SI1 with excellent cut, VG polish and VG symmetry and faint fluoro for almost the same price as a GIA 2.17 G SI2 Triple Ex. without any fluoro.


Which diamond is worth more? I realize that the Rap. says that the SI1 is worth more, because it is $11,700 a ct. vs. an SI2 which is $9,700 a ct. However, the SI2 is a triple ex without fluoro, and it is bigger.


Attached is the SI2 cert. I will post the SI1 cert in another post below.




zTheShmurgdiamond1.jpg
 
Here is the SI1.

Shmurgdiamond2.jpg
 
The dimensions of the SI2 is better from HCA, it will probably perform better. The new stone is not as well cut as the 2.17 stone so I would still choose the 2.17 stone as long as it is eye-clean and do not have other problems as noted in the previous thread.
 
As to worth more, do you mean resale value?

Regarding these 2 diamonds, can you get Idealscope images for them?
 
I don''t believe I will be able to get idealscope images for them - as they are currently in the hands of the sellers. As was said in the other forum, I am shopping for stones in the Miami diamond district, and it is a very NY 47th st. type atmosphere (you can get great deals, but there are risks as was stated before).

According to my math, the 2.06 SI1 stone based on the Rap. price of $11,700 a ct. is $24,100 and the 2.17 SI2 based on the Rap. price of $9,700 a carat is $21,049.

As you know, I was able to get the seller down to $17k for the SI2, and I found a different seller in the building who will sell this SI1 for around $17,800.

I am just not sure which is really a better deal, considering the fluoro and dimensions differences. I am not sure how much these differences affect the Rap. price.

They are both beautiful, although I believe the SI2 has may have a bit more punch (likley because of the triple ex. nature).

Not seeing the stones, and only going on this information, what do you think is a better buy?
 
Date: 10/21/2008 10:14:38 AM
Author: shmurgshmurg

They are both beautiful, although I believe the SI2 has may have a bit more punch (likley because of the triple ex. nature).

Not seeing the stones, and only going on this information, what do you think is a better buy?
Click to expand...
Triple Ex would not give more punch.

Wrong question about better buy

Review this. Re-read Stone Cold.

Makes sense to go for good value, but prioritize cut. Read tutorial above.
 
Regular Guy,

Interesting article - and you make a good point.

So, which stone are you therefore saying, from a gemologically (sp?) aesthetic or resale value point of view, would be a better purchase?
 
Shmurg,

I had only read Stone Cold. Now I''ve done the math using the HCA, and confirm what he said. Your 2.06 gets a 3 on the HCA, and is not as favorable as the larger one.

Read the tutorial, and make your own judgement.
 
Date: 10/21/2008 10:33:49 AM
Author: shmurgshmurg
Regular Guy,

Interesting article - and you make a good point.

So, which stone are you therefore saying, from a gemologically (sp?) aesthetic or resale value point of view, would be a better purchase?
Click to expand...
Diamonds are a bad investment for a resale value. If you want to try to sell for profit sometime you might be better investing in something else. If you might want to trade in for a larger stone later on, then it might be best to purchase from a vendor or seller who has a solid upgrade policy.
 
Excellent - you guys rock! (no pun intended).

That takes care of looks. But, for resale purposes, which one would sell for more (assuming I had to dump it because I had no money!).
 
Date: 10/21/2008 10:41:50 AM
Author: shmurgshmurg
Excellent - you guys rock! (no pun intended).


That takes care of looks. But, for resale purposes, which one would sell for more (assuming I had to dump it because I had no money!).
Click to expand...

Whichever one you could find a buyer for?
17.gif


Really, please don''t think of this as an investment, it isn''t. Just buy whichever one you think your girl would enjoy the most. My vote goes for the more well cut one. It''ll sparkle more!
 
I am just so surprised at how different these two stones preformed on the HCA (I just ran it off the site).

I honestly don''t understand. They are both Ex cut stones (with one being triple Ex. and one with Ex. Vg. Vg.). How could these two Ex. cuts perform so differently!

Also, someone please explain to me why the better stone gets a ".6 within TIC range" and the other gets a "3 very good." What does that mean specifically?

I get what you are saying regarding, trying to find a buyer for the stones, and that is is difficult to judge which is a better buy from the investment perspective. Therefore, let me ask you this question: which would (likely) be appraised higher?
 
Date: 10/21/2008 10:51:40 AM
Author: shmurgshmurg
I am just so surprised at how different these two stones preformed on the HCA (I just ran it off the site).


I honestly don't understand. They are both Ex cut stones (with one being triple Ex. and one with Ex. Vg. Vg.). How could these two Ex. cuts perform so differently!


Also, someone please explain to me why the better stone gets a '.6 within TIC range' and the other gets a '3 very good.' What does that mean specifically?


I get what you are saying regarding, trying to find a buyer for the stones, and that is is difficult to judge which is a better buy from the investment perspective. Therefore, let me ask you this question: which would (likely) be appraised higher?
Click to expand...

The one that costs more to replace would be appraised higher. But that doesn't necessarily mean you'd get more in the resale market. I think people go for size first these days, regardless of color and clarity as long as the color/clarity is decent.

And GIA ex range varies A LOT unfortunately. They are not known for judging cut as tightly as AGS...
 
Being that the one which costs more to replace would be appraised higher: which one would cost more to replace? :-)

I am just so surprised at the above responses. In reality, I like the SI2 Triple Ex. stone better. However, I was assuming that, for sure, the SI1 would be a better deal because of the fact that it is an SI1, and lists for $11,700 a ct. vs. the $9,700 a ct. for the SI2.

I was basing my analysis mainly on the fact that the SI2 dealer was selling me the stone for 19% back of Rap ($17k) vs. the SI1 stone which the other dealer would sell it to me at 27% back of Rap ($17.5k).

What I didn''t know, was how much the Triple Ex nature (and better cut in general) of the SI2 would affect the value/desirability/appraisal amount of the stone, vs. the SI1 with the excellent, but lower quality, cut (with fluoro).

This is all very interesting.
 
Date: 10/21/2008 10:51:40 AM
Author: shmurgshmurg
I am just so surprised at how different these two stones preformed on the HCA (I just ran it off the site).

I honestly don''t understand. They are both Ex cut stones (with one being triple Ex. and one with Ex. Vg. Vg.). How could these two Ex. cuts perform so differently!
Click to expand...
In order to use tools to inform yourself, it''s key to understand what those tools are designed for.

The HCA doesn''t ''select'' diamonds; rather, it''s a tool to weed out likely lesser performers. It considers the crown/pavilion angle relationship as well as other measurements of the stone and predicts based on what information if the stone will be a strong candidate or not. It''s useful for that sole purpose of weeding out likely inferior performers, but it''s not intended to compare stones because it doesn''t *measure* performance.

Because the creator favors shallow cuts, so too does the HCA. Therefore, the 1st stone is getting dinged because of the 41.2 pavilion.

As to why they can share the same GIA Ex grade and perform so differently, GIA''s top grade covers a fairly wide spectrum of cuts. In doing so, cutters are more inclined to submit stones to GIA since more of them will make the top cut grade. The fact that stones share the GIA Ex grade doesn''t mean they should be expected to ''perform'' similarly.


Date: 10/21/2008 10:51:40 AM
Author: shmurgshmurg

Also, someone please explain to me why the better stone gets a ''.6 within TIC range'' and the other gets a ''3 very good.'' What does that mean specifically?
Click to expand...
The HCA says "stones under 2.0 are likely to be strong performers". So, think of HCA as a pass/fail metrics...almost like a preliminary round. It''s saying the SI2 stone looks like it may perform well, and the SI1 stone isn''t as likely to perform well."


Date: 10/21/2008 10:51:40 AM
Author: shmurgshmurg

I get what you are saying regarding, trying to find a buyer for the stones, and that is is difficult to judge which is a better buy from the investment perspective. Therefore, let me ask you this question: which would (likely) be appraised higher?
Click to expand...
What Neatfreak is getting at is this: the secondary market for private resale of stones is horribly weak; you''re lucky to recover a third of what you spend. Based on that, neither would be expected to ''return'' well as an investment, and neither is a no-brainer in a resell situation. To the extent that people seem to be hung up on labels, the SI1 might appeal to more people, but I don''t believe that would significantly affect the volume (or lack thereof) of a secondary market.
 
Shmurg, it seems your primary focus is on getting "the best deal".

If that's the case, I'd suggest that a deal is only a 'deal' if you are getting what you expect.

Common sense dictates that goods of comparable quality should sell for a comparable price. If someone was offering to sell you a brand new BMW for $20K (when the market sells them for at least $10-15K more), a smart buyer would try to understand why such a car was selling for so much less than market value. If I were considering the purchase of such a car, I'd absolutely want to have my trusted mechanic check the car out thoroughly to make sure I was getting 'the deal' I thought I was getting.

I think the same can be said for your purchase. There is a reason those stones are being moved so cheaply. It might be an honorable reason as Rich Sherwood mentioned (dealer has to raise capital quickly); it may be something else.

We can all make speculations here, but that's honestly all they are....speculations. They aren't nearly as informed as the input you could garner from a respected appraiser who would actually lay his eyes on the stones for you.

Please consider this; I'd hate to see you come back after the fact disappointed that you didn't get the 'seemingly' good deal you thought you were getting.
 
So, based on the HCA prediction, the SI2 will look better (with more sparkle, etc.) - is that correct?

Also, forgetting about resale - which one would be insured for a higher amount? I.E. - would an appraiser factor in the great cut of the SI2, and bring it higher than the current Rap. price of $9,700 a carat? Or, will the SI2 always be worth less, from an appraisal/insurance perspective, because, as you said, the SI1 "appeals to more people"?
 
Date: 10/21/2008 12:27:55 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
So, based on the HCA prediction, the SI2 will look better (with more sparkle, etc.) - is that correct?

Also, forgetting about resale - which one would be insured for a higher amount? I.E. - would an appraiser factor in the great cut of the SI2, and bring it higher than the current Rap. price of $9,700 a carat? Or, will the SI2 always be worth less, from an appraisal/insurance perspective, because, as you said, the SI1 ''appeals to more people''?
Click to expand...
Based on the HCA prediction, the SI2 has a stronger likelihood to perform well. It''s not an absolutely guarantee.

Regarding the highlighted.......you''re asking this question to the wrong audience. You''re asking non-appraisers what an appraiser would factor into his valuation.

You need to ask an appraiser.
 
Date: 10/21/2008 12:31:44 PM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 10/21/2008 12:27:55 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
So, based on the HCA prediction, the SI2 will look better (with more sparkle, etc.) - is that correct?

Also, forgetting about resale - which one would be insured for a higher amount? I.E. - would an appraiser factor in the great cut of the SI2, and bring it higher than the current Rap. price of $9,700 a carat? Or, will the SI2 always be worth less, from an appraisal/insurance perspective, because, as you said, the SI1 ''appeals to more people''?
Click to expand...
Based on the HCA prediction, the SI2 has a stronger likelihood to perform well. It''s not an absolutely guarantee.

Regarding the highlighted.......you''re asking this question to the wrong audience. You''re asking non-appraisers what an appraiser would factor into his valuation.

You need to ask an appraiser.
Click to expand...
Ditto.
 
I realize that the HCA is not an absolute. However, when I saw the diamonds, I couldn''t tell that much of a difference (the SI2 looked like it had a bit more sparkle).

You seem to be very hesitant about the HCA. Being that I am not an expert, is the HCA generally accurate or is it not worth basing an opinion on?

I could go for either stone - there is not a huge difference to me - being that the price is so similar between the two.

And since I don''t have one of you guys down here in Miami (until after I buy it and get an appraisal) - I want to make the most educated decision I can.

Let''s take a vote!!

Let''s go out on a limb - using the little information you have on the stones - and tell me which is a better buy!

It looks so far that the SI2 is the favorite - but I want to know for sure - and all I have is you guys to help!
 
Date: 10/21/2008 12:40:46 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
I realize that the HCA is not an absolute. However, when I saw the diamonds, I couldn't tell that much of a difference (the SI2 looked like it had a bit more sparkle).


You seem to be very hesitant about the HCA. Being that I am not an expert, is the HCA generally accurate or is it not worth basing an opinion on?


I could go for either stone - there is not a huge difference to me - being that the price is so similar between the two.



And since I don't have one of you guys down here in Miami (until after I buy it and get an appraisal) - I want to make the most educated decision I can.


Let's take a vote!!


Let's go out on a limb - using the little information you have on the stones - and tell me which is a better buy!


It looks so far that the SI2 is the favorite - but I want to know for sure - and all I have is you guys to help!
Click to expand...

1. An appraisal won't help you without a return policy.

2. The HCA is an ELIMINATION TOOL ONLY it tells you which stones have a higher likelihood of performing well, but it's NOT a guarantee. Each stone needs to be evaluated in person. It is very accurate for what it is, an elimination tool. But it doesn't mean that any stone that is 2 will automatically be bad.

Based on my knowledge here, my desire for a good cut, and your comments about the SI2, I personally would pick that one if you are insistent on buying one of these two. But I WOULDN'T buy it without a return policy OR an independent appraisal FIRST.
 
Date: 10/21/2008 12:40:46 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
I realize that the HCA is not an absolute. However, when I saw the diamonds, I couldn''t tell that much of a difference (the SI2 looked like it had a bit more sparkle).

You seem to be very hesitant about the HCA. Being that I am not an expert, is the HCA generally accurate or is it not worth basing an opinion on?

I could go for either stone - there is not a huge difference to me - being that the price is so similar between the two.

And since I don''t have one of you guys down here in Miami (until after I buy it and get an appraisal) - I want to make the most educated decision I can.

Let''s take a vote!!

Let''s go out on a limb - using the little information you have on the stones - and tell me which is a better buy!

It looks so far that the SI2 is the favorite - but I want to know for sure - and all I have is you guys to help!
Click to expand...
Shmurg, I''m not at all hesitant about the HCA when it''s used for the purpose it''s intended.....which is narrowing the field of candidates. I *am* hesitant about trying to interpret those results in a way they aren''t intended.

The HCA doesn''t compare two stones. That''s not it''s purpose, and it''s not well suited for that analysis.

I don''t mean this disrespectfully at all, but playing "let''s take a vote" isn''t the same as making an educated decision. You''re about to spend $17K on a stone, and yet you''re unwilling to follow sage advice from multiple people suggesting that you invest a nominal $200-250 to enlist someone has TRULY has an educated opinion to protect your interests.....that''s the appraiser.

If you don''t want to pursue that very sage advice, then I''d recommend you simply look at both stones with your eyes and pick the one that looks best to your eye. If you do that, the stone you pick is the better buy.
 
I have one last question.

How accurate in general is the HCA?

I just ran two GIA certs into the HCA, one cert has an Excellent cut rating, and the other cert with a good cut rating. The Excellent got a 3.7 and the good got a 1.8!

How can this be?
 
Date: 10/21/2008 1:20:03 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
I have one last question.


How accurate in general is the HCA?


I just ran two GIA certs into the HCA, one cert has an Excellent cut rating, and the other cert with a good cut rating. The Excellent got a 3.7 and the good got a 1.8!


How can this be?
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? Read the past number of posts we have all written you. There is a LOT of variation in how GIA grades cut. The HCA is accurate as an elimination tool, but is not an absolute. We are trying to help but you need to listen to what we say...
 
I am listening.

I understand that there is variation - we were discussing earlier the variation between a GIA Excellent cut, and a GIA Excellent cut.

Now I am trying to understand why the HCA says that a GIA "good" cut performs better than a GIA "excellent"cut.
 
Then read the disclaimer in the HCA, everything you are asking is there.
 
You tell me:

GIA Excellent 2.07 HCA - 3.7
Depth: 61.2
Table: 59
Crown: 34.5
Pavilion: 41.2
Cutlet: 0.

GIA Good 2.01 HCA - 1.8
Depth: 62.9
Table: 60
Crown: 36
Pavilion: 40.4
Cutles: 0.

I read the disclaimer.

How can GIA be so wrong? This is weird.
 
Note that GIA and AGS grades stone with the primary aim of the ring stone, so the ideal range is always in the range of the younger person ring stone range.

In the case of the 1 example, it is simply the case of GIA having too large a range of what it consider an excellent stone.

In the 2nd case, although HCA score a 1.8, it says the stone is in the FIC range, not TIC, you can see the cross is outside of the AGS ideal bound and GIA excellent bound. GIA and AGS stones are all in the TIC range only. TIC gives the best compromise between brightness and fire in the stone. And FIC sacrifice some light return for fire and usually has a deeper crown, so less spread of the weight.
 
Date: 10/21/2008 1:39:07 PM
Author: shmurgshmurg
You tell me:


GIA Excellent 2.07 HCA - 3.7

Depth: 61.2

Table: 59

Crown: 34.5

Pavilion: 41.2

Cutlet: 0.


GIA Good 2.01 HCA - 1.8

Depth: 62.9

Table: 60

Crown: 36

Pavilion: 40.4

Cutles: 0.


I read the disclaimer.


How can GIA be so wrong? This is weird.
Click to expand...

You have to understand that GIA might not be wrong per se. The HCA was written by a person and thus reflects that person''s preferences. It simply predicts the likelihood that a stone will be nice. A stone that falls outside of the <2 range just has a smaller likelihood of being nice, but it doesn''t mean it WON''T be nice.

If you can see all the stones in person you can evaluate with your eyes, which is helpful. The HCA is very helpful for evaluating online stones that you can''t see in person and deciding which stones might be worth another look from a vendor.

As we have said before, GIA has a wide range of what they consider excellent and very good cuts. They are NOT known for doing a great job judging cut, thus the weird variation.

Just use your eyes and your best judgement to pick a stone. The HCA isn''t everything and neither is resale value. Diamonds are bought for their beauty, so just pick which one speaks to you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top