Ft. Lauderdale airport shooting

[Matata]

Some sources are saying 3 killed.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/ft-lauderdale-airport-shooting-in-florida-injures-at-least-9/1689729/

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you Matata for posting. I have the news on now and they are reporting people at the airport are saying there are multiple dead. Very sad.

 

[Tekate]

Some sources are saying 3 killed.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/ft-lauderdale-airport-shooting-in-florida-injures-at-least-9/1689729/

Thank you also Matata, another tragedy.

 

[Calliecake]

Never mind

 

[redwood66]

Never mind

Thank you. This is a tragedy.

 

[Calliecake]

It appears 5 are dead and 8 are injured.

 

[kenny]

I want to ask the shooter, "Why?".

 

[Matata]

I want to ask the shooter, "Why?".

There isn't an answer to the question "why" that would make a lick of difference to me. The dead will still be dead. Now we can sit back and watch the media circus -- maybe 48 whole hrs devoted to the dead and injured after they're all identified after which they will fade into the past and the focus will be speculation about whether this was a foreign terrorist attack or a homegrown one and if homegrown, whether the shooter was just a plain old batsh*t crazy run-of-the-mill American or a batsh*t crazy rogue ISIS wannabe.

 

[violet3]

Prayers for the families and friends of those that were killed or injured. So very sad.

 

[kenny]

I want to ask the shooter, "Why?".

There isn't an answer to the question "why" that would make a lick of difference to me. The dead will still be dead.

The shooter's "reason" would not "make a lick of difference to me" either.
I also understand the dead will still be dead.

Still ... I'm curious.
A desire to understand is not a desire to sympathize ... yet I got the same reaction on 9-11.
AS we watched the WTC towers collapse on live TV I turned to my friend and asked her (rhetorically of course), "Why do they hate us so much?"

 

[lyra]

I had a moment of sheer undiluted panic over this news today. My husband was at that very terminal yesterday morning and he was coming back today. I had no way to contact him. Luckily we have a family GPS locator app (Life 360) so I was immediately able to tell where he was. He is there at that terminal at least twice a month. I'm hoping that it will be made safer from this point on, and that similar precautions will be put in place everywhere.

It's absolutely terrifying these days.

 

[Matata]

I had a moment of sheer undiluted panic over this news today. My husband was at that very terminal yesterday morning and he was coming back today. I had no way to contact him. Luckily we have a family GPS locator app (Life 360) so I was immediately able to tell where he was. He is there at that terminal at least twice a month. I'm hoping that it will be made safer from this point on, and that similar precautions will be put in place everywhere.

It's absolutely terrifying these days.

Lyra, what an awful situation. I"m happy that your hubs is ok. Hugs to you both.

 

[azstonie]

I want to ask the shooter, "Why?".

There isn't an answer to the question "why" that would make a lick of difference to me. The dead will still be dead.

The shooter's "reason" would not "make a lick of difference to me" either.
I also understand the dead will still be dead.

Still ... I'm curious.
A desire to understand is not a desire to sympathize ... yet I got the same reaction on 9-11.
AS we watched the WTC towers collapse on live TV I turned to my friend and asked her (rhetorically of course), "Why do they hate us so much?"

Really, Kenny, you couldn't come up with anything about us that other cultures don't like????

I never felt hatred like the hatred I felt at USC from the Middle Eastern students and their wives. In the laundry room, dining hall, lecture hall, they clearly thought we were corrupt godless scum.

 

[arkieb1]

I think it's a universal thing, I've travelled all over the world and people ask are we American and we so no, Australia and they say, "oh that is alright then, we really hate Americans." There is this perception around the globe that most Americans are rude, loud and not particularly globally educated..... I'm sure most PSers don't fit these stereotypes but Americans are universally disliked in a lot of places.

 

[ckrickett]

I live so close to there, and my DH was at that baggage claim 3 days ago picking up a friend. surreal to say the least. Such a needless tragedy

 

[missy]

I think it's a universal thing, I've travelled all over the world and people ask are we American and we so no, Australia and they say, "oh that is alright then, we really hate Americans." There is this perception around the globe that most Americans are rude, loud and not particularly globally educated..... I'm sure most PSers don't fit these stereotypes but Americans are universally disliked in a lot of places.

Yes and this was true decades ago as well. I traveled through Europe the summer of 1985 and met 2 Canadian girlfriends for part of the trip and the whole time I just went along with letting people think I was Canadian because Americans were not liked. Of course when there were people who found out I was American they were already cool with me and liked me so felt comfortable sharing with me how much they just didn't care for most Americans and some were careful to add it is the American government we really don't like. But it is true that many Americans are seen as ignorant, boorish, loud and rude and just plain overbearing so not much has changed sadly re our perception overseas. We all don't fall into that category of course but well that is the perception. And I have seen enough of that behavior in Americans to know it is not a completely undeserved reputation.


I could not watch what happened in the news and have avoided it in general. Just happened to see arkieb's comment and wanted to post. I just cannot bear to read or watch this latest tragedy. I am overwhelmed by sadness at all of the tragedy all around us.

 

[kenny]

I want to ask the shooter, "Why?".

There isn't an answer to the question "why" that would make a lick of difference to me. The dead will still be dead.

The shooter's "reason" would not "make a lick of difference to me" either.
I also understand the dead will still be dead.

Still ... I'm curious.
A desire to understand is not a desire to sympathize ... yet I got the same reaction on 9-11.
AS we watched the WTC towers collapse on live TV I turned to my friend and asked her (rhetorically of course), "Why do they hate us so much?"

Really, Kenny, you couldn't come up with anything about us that other cultures don't like????

Of course I could.
But killing thousands and themselves by hijacking four commercial jets and using them as bombs to take take down the twin towers et al. is quite different from just "don't like".

THAT level of hatred is what baffled me and I was curious about.
I'm also so mind blown by the Holocaust (as in how the F could THAT happen) that I watch anything I can get my hands on regarding it.

I try to understand such things instead of just writing it off as "evil". ... which I consider to be an intellectual cop out.
Again desire for understanding is not sympathizing, joining a jihad, or becoming anti-semetic ... yet many people react as though it is when they learn about my curiosity.

 

[AGBF]

Here are excerpts from an article in our local newspaper "explaining' the attack (not by a foreign born Muslim, but by a decorated former US seviceman born here in New Jersey).


"FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) — The Iraq war veteran accused of killing five travelers and wounding six others at a busy international airport in Florida was charged Saturday and could face the death penalty if convicted.

Esteban Santiago, 26, told investigators that he planned the attack, buying a one-way ticket to the Fort Lauderdale airport, a federal complaint said. Authorities don't know why he chose his target and have not ruled out terrorism.

Santiago was charged with an act of violence at an international airport resulting in death ... and weapons charges.

Relatives of the man who police say opened fire Friday killing several people and wounding others at a Florida airport report he had a history of mental health issues. They tell The Associated Press and other news outlets that some of the problems followed his time serving a military tour in Iraq, and that he was being treated at his current home in Alaska.


Authorities said during a news conference that they had interviewed roughly 175 people, including a lengthy interrogation with the cooperative suspect, a former National Guard soldier from Alaska. Flights had resumed at the Fort Lauderdale airport after the bloodshed, though the terminal where the shooting happened remained closed.

Santiago spoke to investigators for several hours after he opened fire with a Walther 9mm semi-automatic handgun that he appears to have legally checked on a flight from Alaska. He had two magazines with him and emptied both of them, firing about 15 rounds, before he was arrested, the complaint said.

'We have not identified any triggers that would have caused this attack. We're pursuing all angles on what prompted him to carry out this horrific attack,' FBI Agent George Piro said.

Investigators are combing through social media and other information to determine Santiago's motive, and it's too early to say whether terrorism played a role, Piro said. In November, Santiago had walked into an FBI field office in Alaska saying the U.S. government was controlling his mind and forcing him to watch Islamic State group videos, authorities said.

'He was a walk-in complaint. This is something that happens at FBI offices around the country every day,' FBI agent Marlin Ritzman said.

On that day, Santiago had a loaded magazine on him, but had left a gun in his vehicle, along with his newborn child, authorities said. Officers seized the weapon and local officers took him to get a mental health evaluation. His girlfriend picked up the child.

On Dec. 8, the gun was returned to Santiago. Authorities wouldn't say if it was the same gun used in the airport attack.

Santiago had not been placed on the U.S. no-fly list and appears to have acted alone, authorities said.

The attack sent panicked witnesses running out of the terminal and spilling onto the tarmac, baggage in hand. Others hid in bathroom stalls or crouched behind cars or anything else they could find as police and paramedics rushed in to help the wounded and establish whether there were any other gunmen.

Mark Lea, 53, had just flown in from Minnesota with his wife for a cruise when he heard three quick cracks, like a firecracker. Then came more cracks, and 'I knew it was more than just a firecracker,' he said.

Making sure his wife was outside, Lea helped evacuate some older women who had fallen, he said. Then he saw the shooter.

'He was just kind of randomly shooting people,' he said. 'If you were in his path, you were going to get shot. He was walking and shooting.'

Over the course of about 45 seconds, the shooter reloaded twice, he said. When he was out of bullets, he walked away, dropped the gun and lay face down, spread eagle on the floor, Lea said.

By that time, a deputy had arrived and grabbed the shooter. Lea put his foot on the gun to secure it.

Lea went to help the injured and a woman from Iowa asked about her husband, who she described. Lea saw a man who fit his description behind a row of chairs, motionless, shot in the head and lying in a pool of blood, he said. The man, Michael Oehme, was identified as one of the dead victims on Saturday.

Santiago had been discharged from the National Guard last year after being demoted for unsatisfactory performance. Bryan Santiago said Saturday that his brother had requested psychological help but received little assistance. Esteban Santiago said in August that he was hearing voices.

'How is it possible that the federal government knows, they hospitalize him for only four days, and then give him his weapon back?' Bryan Santiago said.

His mother declined to comment as she stood inside the screen door of the family home in Puerto Rico, wiping tears from her eyes. The only thing she said was that Esteban Santiago had been tremendously affected by seeing a bomb explode next to two of his friends when he was around 18 years old while serving in Iraq.

Santiago will make his first court appearance Monday.

It is legal for airline passengers to travel with guns and ammunition as long as the firearms are put in a checked bag — not a carry-on — and are unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container. Guns must be declared to the airline at check-in.

Despite his mental evaluation, U.S. Attorney Karen Loeffler said Santiago would have been able to legally possess a gun because he had not been judged mentally ill, which is a high standard.

Santiago arrived in Fort Lauderdale after taking off from Anchorage aboard a Delta flight Thursday night, checking only one piece of luggage — his gun."

AGBF

 

[missy]

Here are excerpts from an article in our local newspaper "explaining' the attack (not by a foreign born Muslim, but by a decorated former US seviceman born here in New Jersey).


"FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) — The Iraq war veteran accused of killing five travelers and wounding six others at a busy international airport in Florida was charged Saturday and could face the death penalty if convicted.

Esteban Santiago, 26, told investigators that he planned the attack, buying a one-way ticket to the Fort Lauderdale airport, a federal complaint said. Authorities don't know why he chose his target and have not ruled out terrorism.

Santiago was charged with an act of violence at an international airport resulting in death ... and weapons charges.

Relatives of the man who police say opened fire Friday killing several people and wounding others at a Florida airport report he had a history of mental health issues. They tell The Associated Press and other news outlets that some of the problems followed his time serving a military tour in Iraq, and that he was being treated at his current home in Alaska.


Authorities said during a news conference that they had interviewed roughly 175 people, including a lengthy interrogation with the cooperative suspect, a former National Guard soldier from Alaska. Flights had resumed at the Fort Lauderdale airport after the bloodshed, though the terminal where the shooting happened remained closed.

Santiago spoke to investigators for several hours after he opened fire with a Walther 9mm semi-automatic handgun that he appears to have legally checked on a flight from Alaska. He had two magazines with him and emptied both of them, firing about 15 rounds, before he was arrested, the complaint said.

'We have not identified any triggers that would have caused this attack. We're pursuing all angles on what prompted him to carry out this horrific attack,' FBI Agent George Piro said.

Investigators are combing through social media and other information to determine Santiago's motive, and it's too early to say whether terrorism played a role, Piro said. In November, Santiago had walked into an FBI field office in Alaska saying the U.S. government was controlling his mind and forcing him to watch Islamic State group videos, authorities said.

'He was a walk-in complaint. This is something that happens at FBI offices around the country every day,' FBI agent Marlin Ritzman said.

On that day, Santiago had a loaded magazine on him, but had left a gun in his vehicle, along with his newborn child, authorities said. Officers seized the weapon and local officers took him to get a mental health evaluation. His girlfriend picked up the child.

On Dec. 8, the gun was returned to Santiago. Authorities wouldn't say if it was the same gun used in the airport attack.

Santiago had not been placed on the U.S. no-fly list and appears to have acted alone, authorities said.

The attack sent panicked witnesses running out of the terminal and spilling onto the tarmac, baggage in hand. Others hid in bathroom stalls or crouched behind cars or anything else they could find as police and paramedics rushed in to help the wounded and establish whether there were any other gunmen.

Mark Lea, 53, had just flown in from Minnesota with his wife for a cruise when he heard three quick cracks, like a firecracker. Then came more cracks, and 'I knew it was more than just a firecracker,' he said.

Making sure his wife was outside, Lea helped evacuate some older women who had fallen, he said. Then he saw the shooter.

'He was just kind of randomly shooting people,' he said. 'If you were in his path, you were going to get shot. He was walking and shooting.'

Over the course of about 45 seconds, the shooter reloaded twice, he said. When he was out of bullets, he walked away, dropped the gun and lay face down, spread eagle on the floor, Lea said.

By that time, a deputy had arrived and grabbed the shooter. Lea put his foot on the gun to secure it.

Lea went to help the injured and a woman from Iowa asked about her husband, who she described. Lea saw a man who fit his description behind a row of chairs, motionless, shot in the head and lying in a pool of blood, he said. The man, Michael Oehme, was identified as one of the dead victims on Saturday.

Santiago had been discharged from the National Guard last year after being demoted for unsatisfactory performance. Bryan Santiago said Saturday that his brother had requested psychological help but received little assistance. Esteban Santiago said in August that he was hearing voices.

'How is it possible that the federal government knows, they hospitalize him for only four days, and then give him his weapon back?' Bryan Santiago said.

His mother declined to comment as she stood inside the screen door of the family home in Puerto Rico, wiping tears from her eyes. The only thing she said was that Esteban Santiago had been tremendously affected by seeing a bomb explode next to two of his friends when he was around 18 years old while serving in Iraq.

Santiago will make his first court appearance Monday.

It is legal for airline passengers to travel with guns and ammunition as long as the firearms are put in a checked bag — not a carry-on — and are unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container. Guns must be declared to the airline at check-in.

Despite his mental evaluation, U.S. Attorney Karen Loeffler said Santiago would have been able to legally possess a gun because he had not been judged mentally ill, which is a high standard.

Santiago arrived in Fort Lauderdale after taking off from Anchorage aboard a Delta flight Thursday night, checking only one piece of luggage — his gun."

AGBF

Thank you for this update Deb. I haven't been able to watch the news or read anything about this because it just makes me sick but for some reason I can read this thread and thank you for the info. This is exactly why we need gun control in this country. No civilian should be able to carry a gun and check it into their luggage on a plane no less. And it seems there were signs missed along the way that this individual shouldn't even have had possession of a gun in the first place.

 

[missy]

I want to ask the shooter, "Why?".

There isn't an answer to the question "why" that would make a lick of difference to me. The dead will still be dead.

The shooter's "reason" would not "make a lick of difference to me" either.
I also understand the dead will still be dead.

Still ... I'm curious.
A desire to understand is not a desire to sympathize ... yet I got the same reaction on 9-11.
AS we watched the WTC towers collapse on live TV I turned to my friend and asked her (rhetorically of course), "Why do they hate us so much?"

Really, Kenny, you couldn't come up with anything about us that other cultures don't like????

Of course I could.
But killing thousands and themselves by hijacking four commercial jets and using them as bombs to take take down the twin towers et al. is quite different from just "don't like".

THAT level of hatred is what baffled me and I was curious about.
I'm also so mind blown by the Holocaust (as in how the F could THAT happen) that I watch anything I can get my hands on regarding it.

I try to understand such things instead of just writing it off as "evil". ... which I consider to be an intellectual cop out.
Again desire for understanding is not sympathizing, joining a jihad, or becoming anti-semetic ... yet many people react as though it is when they learn about my curiosity.

Kenny, I am with you on this. I too want to understand why. You are right. Putting it down to evil is an intellectual cop out for the most part. Why do people hate so much. Why did events such as the Holocaust and 9/11 happen and how was it allowed to happen? There is much scientific data on this subject and I find it fascinating. I also know we must learn from our past mistakes in order to make sure things like this never happen again. For that reason alone I feel it important to ask why. No matter how jaded and cynical one might be asking why should never feel like a futile question. To know why might help prevent future tragedies IMO.

 

[Matata]

Those who want to know why Muslims and ISIS despise Western cultures, start by reading the Quaran. Read Christopher Hitchens God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. Read these articles:
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/02/haraam-what-islam-hates-about-the-west
http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-attacks-terrorism-europe-muslims-brussels-attacks-airport-metro/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/why-hate-you-isis-reveal-8533563

There's lot of stuff out there all of which mention the same themes, none of which will make you feel any better about the situation. I've read a lot of material about the subject and still cannot come to grips with the unshakeable depth of belief that prevents seeking common ground for peace.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I hadn't checked hangout before today, but my daughter's best friend's father (a family friend) was at that airport waiting for a flight home at the time of the shooting. Needless to say, they were very upset until they heard from him! It took him an extra 24 hours to get home, but thankfully, he was one who did make it home.

 

[ruby59]

The man went into an FBI office and told them he was hearing voices.

How is that not considered mental illness where they would just give him his gun back?

 

[ksinger]

The man went into an FBI office and told them he was hearing voices.

How is that not considered mental illness where they would just give him his gun back?

According to the the DSM-V, we've got a greater than 50% chance of being declared "mentally ill" in a lifetime. Mentally ill has become a huge (I would argue over-broad) umbrella. As the piece kind of implies, mental illness of the kind that is going to result in either forced commitment or forced treatment, or some sort of abrogation of a right as wildly important to a lot of Americans - the right to bear arms - is going to have to have a pretty high legal bar, involving the person assessing the patient, declaring that person is a risk to himself or others. (In practice, I'm pretty sure it's a much lower legal bar to force you into the hospital than it would be to remove a legal weapon from your possession.) You have to have a judge declare you mentally unfit before your right to possess a weapon can be denied, (as my husband just chanted from long memory to me: "Have you ever been institutionalized or adjudicated mentally defective" (I'm sure the old wording of "defective" has been removed of course). Just think of how long stuff like that typically takes. So, just like being clinically depressed doesn't necessarily mean you're a danger to others, neither would hearing voices necessarily mean that. Apparently whoever assessed him didn't think his voices made him a threat.

So, I would say the FBI probably had neither the resources nor the legal right to do more than they did.

At the end of the day, what happened is a tragedy, as these things always are. But it is a pain we've collectively decided we can live with for freedom.

 

[ruby59]

The man went into an FBI office and told them he was hearing voices.

How is that not considered mental illness where they would just give him his gun back?

According to the the DSM-V, we've got a greater than 50% chance of being declared "mentally ill" in a lifetime. Mentally ill has become a huge (I would argue over-broad) umbrella. As the piece kind of implies, mental illness of the kind that is going to result in either forced commitment or forced treatment, or some sort of abrogation of a right as wildly important to a lot of Americans - the right to bear arms - is going to have to have a pretty high legal bar, involving the person assessing the patient, declaring that person is a risk to himself or others. (In practice, I'm pretty sure it's a much lower legal bar to force you into the hospital than it would be to remove a legal weapon from your possession.) You have to have a judge declare you mentally unfit before your right to possess a weapon can be denied, (as my husband just chanted from long memory to me: "Have you ever been institutionalized or adjudicated mentally defective" (I'm sure the old wording of "defective" has been removed of course). Just think of how long stuff like that typically takes. So, just like being clinically depressed doesn't necessarily mean you're a danger to others, neither would hearing voices necessarily mean that. Apparently whoever assessed him didn't think his voices made him a threat.

So, I would say the FBI probably had neither the resources nor the legal right to do more than they did.

At the end of the day, what happened is a tragedy, as these things always are. But it is a pain we've collectively decided we can live with for freedom.

OK. so the FBI person who assessed him was wrong. And in this case, his hearing voices was a sign of mental illness. So that is 2 for 2.

So I wonder if this plan we decided on not to step on someone else's freedom to own a gun even if there is any possibility they could be a danger to others now makes it 3 for 3 and all 3 need to be seriously reevaluated.

Because something isn't working right.

 

[Matata]

How Japan Has Almost Eradicated Gun Crime http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38365729

 

[ruby59]

" And after three years your licence runs out, at which point you have to attend the course and pass the tests again."


This. Someone might have been fine when he first got his license, but circumstances change. A brain injury, mental illness can make a person no longer fit. So having to be reevaluated every 3 years is a great idea. But the FLA shooter was unfit, yet they just gave him his gun back. So there has to be some major changes in our laws.

2nd amendment - you do not have the right to own a gun if you are a convicted felon unless you are pardoned. and the same should hold true for the mentally ill until 3 doctors certify that you are well enough to do so.

That one person who assessed him obviously screwed up. That is why you should have had 2 others to certify that diagnosis.

 

[Calliecake]

Everything Karen listed above is true. Until this country changes it views on guns nothing will change. I gave up all hope when nothing changed after Sandy Hook. Ruby, The party you support repeats over and over it's their right to have guns. If they had their way every person would be walking around with a gun at all times. This countries obsession with fire arms is ridiculous. And we wonder why other countries think we are crazy. Its because we are crazy!

Guns and ammunition are legal to bring to an airport. Is anyone really surprised this type of shooting happened. I'm more surprised it didn't happen sooner.

 

[ruby59]

Everything Karen listed above is true. Until this country changes it views on guns nothing will change. I gave up all hope when nothing changed after Sandy Hook. Ruby, The party you support repeats over and over it's their right to have guns. If they had their way every person would be walking around with a gun at all times. This countries obsession with fire arms is ridiculous. And we wonder why other countries think we are crazy. Its because we are crazy!

Guns and ammunition are legal to bring to an airport. Is anyone really surprised this type of shooting happened. I'm more surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Obama has been President for the last 8 years, and look at how many mass and police shootings we have had under him.

Restricting legal gun ownership does nothing to prevent the criminals and insane from getting their hands on them. What we need is a better system like that in the article. Licenses that have to be renewed every 3 years to make sure the person in possession of a gun is still capable of owning one.

And erring on the side of caution that when there is a situation where a person acts unstable, 3 doctors need to determine if and when that crisis is over before he is allowed to own one again.

Apparently the shooter assaulted his girl friend one month before he got his gun back.

 

[missy]

How Japan Has Almost Eradicated Gun Crime http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38365729

Thanks Matata for the article. For those who don't like clicking onto links.

Japan has one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world. In 2014 there were just six gun deaths, compared to 33,599 in the US. What is the secret?

If you want to buy a gun in Japan you need patience and determination. You have to attend an all-day class, take a written exam and pass a shooting-range test with a mark of at least 95%.

There are also mental health and drugs tests. Your criminal record is checked and police look for links to extremist groups. Then they check your relatives too - and even your work colleagues. And as well as having the power to deny gun licences, police also have sweeping powers to search and seize weapons.

That's not all. Handguns are banned outright. Only shotguns and air rifles are allowed.

The law restricts the number of gun shops. In most of Japan's 40 or so prefectures there can be no more than three, and you can only buy fresh cartridges by returning the spent cartridges you bought on your last visit.


Police must be notified where the gun and the ammunition are stored - and they must be stored separately under lock and key. Police will also inspect guns once a year. And after three years your licence runs out, at which point you have to attend the course and pass the tests again.

This helps explain why mass shootings in Japan are extremely rare. When mass killings occur, the killer most often wields a knife.

Makes so much sense yet still we cry for our rights to bear arms. This is a good compromise. If you really want to own guns you still can but with stricter rules/regulations and I agree. There is just no good reason for owning handguns.