Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Needed

[katrobinson1]

Hey Guys,

So I went out diamond shopping today -- more so to finalize the EC specs I want than to buy -- and I came across a few things that alarmed me.

1.) None of the stores I visited had any info on the diamond optics. I went to a few super high end stores and Shane Co. When I asked if they did ASET or IdealScope testing -- they gave me a funny look and said no. I explained it was for light return and they all said they just use a microscope with 10x-30x power.

2.) Only one store used only GIA reports. Shane Co questioned my want for a stone with a GIA report. They explained that they have in-house GIA trained techs who evaluate their diamonds when the ones they have don't come with a GIA report. Uh, right -- so I'm going to trust your in-house person who is employed by the retailer who sells the diamond? Shane Co then went on to say -- when I insisted on a GIA report for any stone I would purchase -- that it takes 2-4 weeks and even then they often can vary in accuracy. They actually said they have diamonds sent out a month later for the GIA report and it comes back different. (How can this be if they already have the report? Why would they send it out again)?

The other retailer used a mix of GIA and EGL and quoted an EGL 1.5 carat emerald with H and SI1 as retail price of $17,800 but then said the "out the door price was $10,000." I didnt even ask for a discount...

3. None of the stores had any idea on lw ratio for EC cuts or the ideal specs for carat weight and lw ratios. It's not just that they didn't know, but they seemed annoyed that I had this info. One store showed me a 1.5 carat but its lw ratio was 7.06 x 5.2 = which puts it closer to a 1.0 carat. When I said that it might be hiding weight in the depth all they said was: cut is all that matters. A diamond can be cut deep but be beautiful. I thought, "Yes of course. But with the '1.5 label' you could be charging for the the same eye-view as a 1.0' "

4. None of the stores could discuss depth and table ratios with me. It's as if they only knew the basic cut, clarity, carat and color.

Am I on track here with my conclusions? Are these stores just expecting that most people have no idea how to gauge what they buy?Am I asking for too much?

The information is out there -- and easily researched -- so I just don't get the disconnect between a place like PriceScope and the in-person retailers.

I'm new to this so not sure if my instincts are are correct. I just feel frustrated.

As for the actual purchase:

I currently plan to go with GOG but the lack of warranty offered with the stone worries me. I don't care about trade-up policies. Since GOG will source the diamond, and assuming I like the stone, what happens if the diamond chips in say 3 years?

Do I just take out a claim on my insurance? How does that work?

Shane Co scared me a bit: they said often times insurance companies won't you the replacement cost of the diamond. So if you paid $12k for the stone and it's now worth $15k you're SOL & your premiums will go up. Shane Co. tried to sell me that they will always replace the diamond for you at no cost with the exact same specs -- expressly said "no fine print" and they do it frequently for customers. Too good to be true?

I don't mind buying a stone online -- especially since I can see it from GOG and return it within 10 days. But they would most likely mount the stone and I worry that I won't like the final product and now it's a huge process to unmount the diamond and such. And then, if's there's a problem, I have no recourse.

(Oh, GOG doesn't offer their lifetime guarantee for fancy shapes, i.e. ECs).

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[LibbyLA]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Insurance, not a warranty, covers a chipped diamond. Car warranties don't cover dings and dents...

It's your responsibility to keep your insurance policy updated so that you are insuring your jewelry for enough to replace it. Jeweler's Mutual (aka Perfect Circle) called me recently to try to talk me into increasing the values on my policy but my appraisals are recent so there's no need.

liz

 

[katrobinson1]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Thanks for the reply.

I'm assuming a well-done appraisal.

But Shane Co made it seem like that wasn't enough. I'm not sure if there is merit to what they said in general -- if for example, someone does not have a high enough replacement policy. Or, if it's know that getting a diamond replaced with insurance is a known problem.

 

[pandabee]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

I think B&M stores do not expect their potential customers to be as well educated as you have made yourself, particularly on fancy cuts that go beyond the basic HCA rule out, table/depth percentages and all the angles. As Libby mentioned, an updated appraisal with a reputable insurance company (either as an add-on or many people here prefer as a separate policy altogether) will replace or give you an allowance to replace your insured stone should anything happen to it.

Were you at least able to figure out which specs you would nix or confirm what your minimum requirements in a stone are?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Store warranties on diamonds are worthless. You generally overpay for those, and certainly they do not cover every conceivable loss like jewelry insurance does. It is a scam. Be glad GOG doesn't offer a worthless warranty which jacks up the price. And be glad they aren't liars like some of those who talked to you today (as in there is no merit to what they said).

What you experienced is extremely common. I would say that regular members here know far more about diamonds than most jewelry store sales clerks. These places take advantage of most buyers' ignorance much like a used car salesman. You have zero idea of what you are getting with uncertified stones.

This is why most of us who came here would never consider buying a diamond at most regular jewelry stores. You'll either overpay for a nice certified stone or you'll get scammed with other lab graded or non-graded stones.

 

[SB621]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

You shouldn't feel alarmed. Most B&M stores that are chains don't have knowledge salespeople who work on the front counter and most also don't offer ASET/ Idealscopes ect. I actually would have been shocked if they had! While this is a jewelry store you are sort of comparing apples to oranges. The vast majority of consumers purchasing diamonds won't ask for this information. PS vendors do for the very obvious reason.

And as someone already mentioned your insurance will cover a chipped diamond. That wouldn't be the vendor's fault if you smacked your hand while doing dishes and chipped it. It would be yours.

PS is great for education in assisting you with your purchase. In many cases you will know more then the jewelry salesperson. I'm sure when you walked into Shane and co the person was getting an hourly wage and can relay the 4 C's to you but that is probably it. If you want to really get all the information you want ie GIA report, ASET, idealscope etc, then I would go with a PS vendor. We all speak the same language for the most part.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Oh, and if you want, you certainly can have the diamond sent to you to look at and then send it back to be set (which I always do). You'll get free shipping once and probably have to pay for the other.

 

[Niel]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Did you at least get to look at gia colors so you could get a sense of your color tolerance? Or get a size idea?

 

[katrobinson1]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Okay I was hoping that was the case. It's tough because I want to see if I can get more protection on the stone -- and of course see it in person -- even though I am absolutely in LOVE with GOG's service and transparency of the diamonds they sell.

Great points on the warranties. I thought this seemed odd but I've read through Shane Co's policy and it seems fairly clear cut. However, I am uneasy. I like that GOG knows more than me but will still offer me tools for education and obviously they are well respected on PriceScope which is independent.

Is Shane Co's lifetime policy really a scam? http://www.shaneco.com/about/lifetimeguarantee.htmx

Does anyone know how insurance for diamonds works? I assume it's the same as other insurance? I was planning on just insuring it through LibertyMutual. We already have home, auto, and life insurance through them.

 

[katrobinson1]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Oh and to Niel and Pandabee:

Yes! I would like a 1.25 - 1.5 EC (8mm x 6mm), D-F, and VS1-VVS1.

Here's my dream that I tried on today Guess I don't wear a size 6 ring lol..

(not the right color but matched size and I fell in love with the Tacori setting --another $3200!) http://www.hamra.com/bridal/engagement-rings/18k-wg-semi-mount-ring-1733.html Don't know much about 18k WG, orig planned to just do a platinum band

 

[katrobinson1]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

At Diamondseeker:

Do you meant through GOG? Like pay for the diamond and then ensure I like it and then send it back to mounted?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

"To ensure a lifetime of trouble-free wear compliments of Shane Co., please bring your Shane Co. jewelry to us approximately every six months for a free cleaning and inspection. That way, we can spot any potential maintenance issues and provide free preventive maintenance before problems occur. This warranty does not apply to lost, stolen or abused merchandise."

Problem 1: they are trying to get you back in the store every 6 months. If you don't, then your warranty lapses and they could refuse to honor it if you lost your diamond.

Problem 2: You can lose your ring. Your ring can be stolen. You HAVE to have jewelry insurance unless you are so well off that replacing the ring yourself is no big deal.

Problem 3: If you accidentally slam your ring in a door, they can say you abused it. You have zero guarantees with a warranty that they will cover your damage because they have loopholes.

The warranty is not sufficient to cover a ring for any type of loss or damage. You have to have insurance on your diamond that will cover it if it shatters, if it is stolen, if it is lost, or if it is lost in a fire.

I used to have riders on my jewelry with Liberty Mutual but never had a loss so I don't know what a claim would have been like. But I now have jewelry insurance on a separate policy because if I did have a loss, I don't want my whole homeowners premium to go up. You'd have to ask LM to provide you with the information about what their riders cover and what happens in the event of a loss (like do they try to replace it or will they let you and your jeweler select the replacement? And if you don't like their replacement, will they do a cash payout?).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

At Diamondseeker:

Do you meant through GOG? Like pay for the diamond and then ensure I like it and then send it back to mounted?

Yes, that is what I always do. Pay, look at stone and send it back to be mounted. Or if I decide I don't like that one, I just leave the money there so they can send me another.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

I am pretty sure that is the Tacori 2620 for emerald cut, and I agree that it is a gorgeous setting!!! And of course, GOG offers Tacori.

 

[katrobinson1]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Thank you!! I feel so much better!! -- I knew that something was off with Shane Co and the rest of these B & M stores.

So glad I stuck my instincts and am going with GOG. (And thank you everyone for replying and letting me know I am not out of my mind lol).

I agree about the LM policy -- I will probably look into a separate policy with a separate company in addition to figuring out how LM works.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

It may not be a total scam but it gives people a false sense of security when the warranty does not cover all types of loss. A jewelry insurance policy does. It is a good idea to compare LM's coverage and cost with something like Jeweler's Mutual.

 

[chrono]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

1.) None of the stores I visited had any info on the diamond optics. I went to a few super high end stores and Shane Co. When I asked if they did ASET or IdealScope testing -- they gave me a funny look and said no. I explained it was for light return and they all said they just use a microscope with 10x-30x power.
This is not a surprise. Why? Because most people do not know about ASET, IS or even what makes a well cut diamond sparkle. They just go by ct, colour, clarity and cut (shape). There is hardly any information on light performance and almost all B&M sales personnel have no clue beyond the very basics.

2.) Only one store used only GIA reports. Shane Co questioned my want for a stone with a GIA report. They explained that they have in-house GIA trained techs who evaluate their diamonds when the ones they have don't come with a GIA report. Uh, right -- so I'm going to trust your in-house person who is employed by the retailer who sells the diamond? Shane Co then went on to say -- when I insisted on a GIA report for any stone I would purchase -- that it takes 2-4 weeks and even then they often can vary in accuracy. They actually said they have diamonds sent out a month later for the GIA report and it comes back different. (How can this be if they already have the report? Why would they send it out again)?

The other retailer used a mix of GIA and EGL and quoted an EGL 1.5 carat emerald with H and SI1 as retail price of $17,800 but then said the "out the door price was $10,000." I didnt even ask for a discount...
Yes, many people purchase diamonds without any lab reports or use labs that are not graded accurately such as IGI or other foreign EGL labs. Why? Because there is little education about this, hence no one is pushing it. Without a GIA report, they can claim that the diamond is an F VS1 and sell it at at pricing but is it really an F VS1?

3. None of the stores had any idea on lw ratio for EC cuts or the ideal specs for carat weight and lw ratios. It's not just that they didn't know, but they seemed annoyed that I had this info. One store showed me a 1.5 carat but its lw ratio was 7.06 x 5.2 = which puts it closer to a 1.0 carat. When I said that it might be hiding weight in the depth all they said was: cut is all that matters. A diamond can be cut deep but be beautiful. I thought, "Yes of course. But with the '1.5 label' you could be charging for the the same eye-view as a 1.0' "
ECs are generally not in demand, partly because rounds are more popular and let's face it, an EC that is not well cut just looks unattractive. B&Ms are not going to keep stones that do not sell well in inventory and tie up their cash flow. This then follows that the sale personnel know even less about ECs than other shapes.

4. None of the stores could discuss depth and table ratios with me. It's as if they only knew the basic cut, clarity, carat and color.

Am I on track here with my conclusions? Are these stores just expecting that most people have no idea how to gauge what they buy?Am I asking for too much?

The information is out there -- and easily researched -- so I just don't get the disconnect between a place like PriceScope and the in-person retailers.

I'm new to this so not sure if my instincts are are correct. I just feel frustrated.
I am sorry but what you experienced is the same for me as well. Few people bother to do research and some don't even know where to start. When there is no demand, there is no need to spend the time for extra training, money to send diamonds to GIA, etc. And no, you are not asking too much. There is nothing wrong is wanting to get the most for your hard earned money!

As for the actual purchase:

I currently plan to go with GOG but the lack of warranty offered with the stone worries me. I don't care about trade-up policies. Since GOG will source the diamond, and assuming I like the stone, what happens if the diamond chips in say 3 years?
This is what insurance is for. Should it get lost and damaged, the insurance will either replace it or give you cash, depending on the type of policy. The more information you provide, the better your chances of getting truly a comparable replacement else risk getting a dud EC.

Do I just take out a claim on my insurance? How does that work?

Shane Co scared me a bit: they said often times insurance companies won't you the replacement cost of the diamond. So if you paid $12k for the stone and it's now worth $15k you're SOL & your premiums will go up. Shane Co. tried to sell me that they will always replace the diamond for you at no cost with the exact same specs -- expressly said "no fine print" and they do it frequently for customers. Too good to be true?
There IS a fine print. Miss the cleaning once and the warranty is voided. Forget to get the cleaning record updated and the warranty is voided. Exact specs just mean colour and clarity and ct weight. You are most likely to get an EC that is not well cut. What happens if they cannot find an EC with the same ct weight, colour and clarity?

I don't mind buying a stone online -- especially since I can see it from GOG and return it within 10 days. But they would most likely mount the stone and I worry that I won't like the final product and now it's a huge process to unmount the diamond and such. And then, if's there's a problem, I have no recourse.

(Oh, GOG doesn't offer their lifetime guarantee for fancy shapes, i.e. ECs).
The reason for this is because the demand for fancy shapes is low, so it is harder for GOG or any company, really, to turn the diamond around quickly.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[marcy]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

I agree that most PS members know more than many people working in local jewelry stores so it can be frustrating to go shopping at those stores.

I can tell you about my experience with the Shane Company.

I have dozens of things from them and they honor their warranty with no questions, problems or attitude. Their Shane Classic diamonds include GIA EX certified or AGS0 certified but those are limited to round or princess cut. Their upgrade policy is awesome. On loose stones you only have to buy something that costs a $1.00 more. I live 2 hours from their nearest store and they don't say a word if I don't get my stuff checked within 6 months. I wouldn't hesitate to send family or friends there.

I hope you find a diamond you love no matter where you find it.

 

[pandabee]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Is GOG looking for emeralds for you right now? The only one I saw that was close enough to the 8x6 size you like was this one but it's H/SI1 and it's a larger carat weight than you were specifying to get to 8x6 (and at the top end of your budget). And now I see that this was the same one already rehashed in your other thread. After viewing the few stones you were able to IRL, did you find that you are in fact über sensitive to inclusions and color?

PS I like how you have all your info in your signature! Very helpful...wish all new members looking for help on stones had that info there

 

[katrobinson1]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

So glad I posted this thread -- for my own sake lol. I was so excited to go out with my info only to find in the first five minutes of entering each store more than a few red flags. I just can't believe that ppl will spend so much money (below my budget and well above it) without googling some stuff The 4cs are so basic. I mean, the whole point of a diamond is it's light return and no one wants to talk optics?

Yes unfortunately it turns out I'm pretty sensitive to color and clarity -- and so is my boyfriend! He is all for colorless and VS1 -- I didn't even have to convince him. So we are both on the same page when it comes to size, clarity, and color. It also is the nature of an EC where color is going to be much more noticeable given the facets.

As for inclusions, I just could not go below an VS1 unless the S1 inclusion was in the corner or something. But what are the odds of finding an D-F with an SI1 in the perfect spot. Keeping that door open though.

With size, the 7.5mm-8mm / 5.5mm-6mm stones just look "right" on my hand. Not too big -- that's not my style -- but enough for me to want to never upgrade. Trust me, I wish I had smaller fingers or as to be happy with 1.0 carat. Lol that would save me a good chunk of cash.

The only thing I'm bummed about is the Tacori setting (2620 ECSMP). I had orig wanted another Tacori style that was $6600 or something and decided to get a plain band and put that cash toward the stone. But then I feel in love with this setting and really didn't like the plain band look. Not sure why. I love it in pictures but somehow on my finger it just suit me. (http://www.tacori.com/engagement/2620ecsmp.htmll)

At Shane Co I showed them the setting and asked for something similar and they just brought me a bunch of halos. So not sure if I'll be able to do the stone & that setting. Maybe try to find something else. A quick search means my budget just got bumped to 11k-12k for the stone for the specs I want lol. That's okay though -- I will to get what I'll wear for a lifetime.

Oh and GOG isn't searching for me yet. I wanted to get a concrete idea of size and color first so they didn't waste time sourcing stuff and then I keep changing my mind.

So my boyfriend and I will have to talk and see if these specs and likely increase in price is something we can do now or if we need to wait.

 

[chrono]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Herein lies another possible problem - you say that you are colour and clarity sensitive from your diamond viewing mission but the diamonds you viewed were not graded by GIA, so are they truly F / G / H and VS1 / VS2 / Si1, YKWIM? In order to gauge your tolerance level accurately, you need to compare GIA graded diamonds, not ungraded or EGL or IGI diamonds. I've seen in-house graded VS1 EC come back from GIA with a clarity grading of SI1. On the other hand, the same diamond's colour went up from H to G.

 

[distracts]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

That's a totally normal experience at most jewelry stores. That's why PSers tend to stick to a few specific retailers that know about that information, or in the cases of most of our local jewelers, people who may not know much about it but are really tolerant in terms of answering questions, hunting down info for you, and letting you examine the reports and use your own ASET or Idealscope.

Re: Insurance - it's best to get either independent jewelry insurance or to get a rider for your homeowner's/renter's policy. In either case, read your contract and understand what the insurance does and does not cover. There are some home insurance policies that don't cover jewelry loss outside the home - for instance on vacation - so that is something particular to pay attention to.

Problem 1: they are trying to get you back in the store every 6 months. If you don't, then your warranty lapses and they could refuse to honor it if you lost your diamond.

Not only do you have to get back in to have it checked every six months, you have to make sure they note on your account or wherever that you did so. I have seen several examples between this board and others of people who did (or at least claim they did) go in every six months to have it checked but who didn't make sure it was noted, and when they damaged their ring they were SOL because Shane Co said they hadn't gotten it checked. One lady on PS got her ring replaced by complaining a lot and writing to corporate, but I've seen some other people just give up.

 

[diamondloveaffair]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

Written by diamondseeker2006 » 25 May 2013 18:35:
Problem 1: they are trying to get you back in the store every 6 months. If you don't, then your warranty lapses and they could refuse to honor it if you lost your diamond.

It's part of a well oiled system to get you back into the store for cleaning or warranty purposes. The reason for this is the opportunity to market more products for the consumers.

 

[katrobinson1]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

For the color and clarity I saw the GIA reports from Shane Co -- although they might have switched them since I don't know the inscription but that may be a stretch. As much as I think retailers will take advantage of customers I'm not sure if that suggests they would be fraudulent. Shane Co was were I was able to tell the greatest difference between color and clarity.

I was not able to judge color at the other higher end stores because with the lighting -- in all honesty -- they all sparkled the same. It was hard to tell their H from their E. Now maybe those stones weren't accurately graded but I did not check the GIA report on those stones.

 

[Niel]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

For the color and clarity I saw the GIA reports from Shane Co -- although they might have switched them since I don't know the inscription but that may be a stretch. As much as I think retailers will take advantage of customers I'm not sure if that suggests they would be fraudulent. Shane Co was were I was able to tell the greatest difference between color and clarity.

I was not able to judge color at the other higher end stores because with the lighting -- in all honesty -- they all sparkled the same. It was hard to tell their H from their E. Now maybe those stones weren't accurately graded but I did not check the GIA report on those stones.

That doesn't surprise me. Just the normal individuals is not usually color sensitive enough to see lots of tint in an h.

 

[AprilBaby]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

I would guess they know as much about their insurance as they know about their stones: not much.

 

[chrono]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

I have no issues seeing the difference between an E and G EC face up. Perhaps it's a good thing you can't.

 

[heididdl]

Re: Frustrated w/Retail Diamond Shopping Today -- Advice Nee

You keep remarking about protecting your stone. Are you a sculptor of metal and brick . I have worn diamonds for 27 years. One EC for 10 years and my mother wore it for 35 before me I cook clean work with clay climb hike use hammer and nail. and never once thought that i should have specific insurance for chips.

My rings are set well I get them checked often and i love and enjoy them. They are all properly insured for lose and theft but as someone else said you have to take care of your ring the best you can you not to worry about something happening to it. the only way to really protect it is to bezel set it so nothing but the metal touches it I guess.

Color sensitive I agree you need to see GIA stones for color and clarity. Some SI1 stones show better than some Vs1 stones. As an example I am attaching my gia H color SI1 stone ...i challange you to find the imperfection even under 10x. Plus the color is so bright and white you can see straight through to the bottom

So try to have an open mind ...You will find the perfect stone .......but look at alot of stones and GOG is a great vendor to work with