freaking out! hca came back as fair!!!

[jgny]

OK, so I got my "upgrade" diamond from a friend in the industry, whom we trust to give us good pricing. I wish I had reviewed the tutorial here before I had gone, but it was a spur of the moment decision to buy the diamond, and now I am thinking that I should have taken my time. I just plugged my specs into the HCA and this is what I got:

Holloway Cut Adviser

Selected: 62.5% depth, 64% table, 36.5° crown angle, 41.8° pavilion angle
The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish
HCA scores were adjusted Dec. 15, 2001 and Feb. 6, 2003.

Factor Grade
Light Return Good
Fire Poor
Scintillation Poor
Spread or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 6.8 - Fair

My heart dropped. It looked great at the showroom and certainly more beautiful than my current diamond. Specs are 3.01 ct, Color F Clarity VS1, Cut Grade Good, Finish Very Good, Polish Very Good, Fluorescence Faint.

I wasn''t expecting an "excellent" but also not a 6.8 fair.

I''m not sure what to do now. Try to return and exchange for a "better" diamond? What price would you experienced PSers have paid for the diamond? I''m wondering if I got a good price, now, or if I would have been better off getting a better cut diamond but trading off on another factor?

Thoughts?

 

[jgny]

I will add that a slightly bigger diamond with HCA under 2 is listed at $20K over what we paid. IMO we would not have paid extra for that perfect cut.

I''m just second guessing my decision here. When I look at the diamond, I really love it, and once I get it set (hopefully Leon Mege) I''m sure it will be beautiful. I just want to make sure I got the best "value" for my money on the stone. And that it''s worth the extra moola I will be spending for an LM setting.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/25/2009 4:03:18 AM
Author: jgny
I will add that a slightly bigger diamond with HCA under 2 is listed at $20K over what we paid. IMO we would not have paid extra for that perfect cut.

I'm just second guessing my decision here. When I look at the diamond, I really love it, and once I get it set (hopefully Leon Mege) I'm sure it will be beautiful. I just want to make sure I got the best 'value' for my money on the stone. And that it's worth the extra moola I will be spending for an LM setting.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Ok don't panic - your diamond is the proverbial steep deep, this is why it is scoring so poorly. It also has a huge to me table. If you could take it back and get another unless you really like this one then I would consider it, the angles are so steep deep and with the table size, probably no other cutting aspects that can redeem it.

I have to be honest with you as to the type of stone you have here, especially with the amount of money you must have paid. I don't want to talk you into keeping it, just tell you what you have and what is likely to happen with it in some lights - light leakage. I am not surprised it looked good in the showroom in that sort of lighting, what I would do if you are unsure, take the diamond on a test drive, check it out in daylight and as many different lighting conditions as you can, you might see it goes dead sometimes and might show a dark ring around the table facet. Then make your decision based on how it looks in everyday wearing conditions.

Also you could consider getting a slightly smaller diamond with better cut, chances are it would be more impressive than the 3 carater with the huge table ( which will glare) and light leakage, often a problem with severe steep deeps is they can lack edge to edge light return which will make the diamond look smaller.

As to pricing, if the diamond was considerably cheaper than other 3 caraters then cut quality could definitely be a factor. No need either to have a perfect cut, but a diamond with better crown and pavilion angles would really help beauty and performance. If you want to get a refund we could take a look for you to see what else is out there, or we can critique any possible contenders you post.

Check out this link with the images upper right to see the difference cut quality can make to apparent size.

 

[FB.]

Date: 11/25/2009 3:52:48 AM
Author:jgny
OK, so I got my ''upgrade'' diamond from a friend in the industry, whom we trust to give us good pricing. I wish I had reviewed the tutorial here before I had gone, but it was a spur of the moment decision to buy the diamond, and now I am thinking that I should have taken my time. I just plugged my specs into the HCA and this is what I got:

Holloway Cut Adviser

Selected: 62.5% depth, 64% table, 36.5° crown angle, 41.8° pavilion angle
The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish
HCA scores were adjusted Dec. 15, 2001 and Feb. 6, 2003.

Factor Grade
Light Return Good
Fire Poor
Scintillation Poor
Spread or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 6.8 - Fair

My heart dropped. It looked great at the showroom and certainly more beautiful than my current diamond. Specs are 3.01 ct, Color F Clarity VS1, Cut Grade Good, Finish Very Good, Polish Very Good, Fluorescence Faint.

I wasn''t expecting an ''excellent'' but also not a 6.8 fair.

I''m not sure what to do now. Try to return and exchange for a ''better'' diamond? What price would you experienced PSers have paid for the diamond? I''m wondering if I got a good price, now, or if I would have been better off getting a better cut diamond but trading off on another factor?

Thoughts?

GIA have several cut grades; excellent, very good, good, fair and poor.
Yours sits in the middle grade. It has been cut only with the intention of meeting a specific weight. If you''re lucky, the cutter might have done a few tricks that might make the stone perform better.

It has a very large table (55-58% is ideal), a very steep crown (34.0-35.0 is ideal) and a deep pavilion (40.6-41.0 is ideal). I would hazard a guess that the amount of light and flashes from your stone would be no more than the amount that you''d get from an ideal-cut stone of half it''s size.

The proportions are a long way from what is considered ideal. But maybe those proportions look good to your eyes which is all that really matters. My OH actually prefers proportions that don''t sit quite in the generally accepted "ideal" grade. So do I for that matter - but in the oppostie direction to what my OH prefers!

 

[tyty333]

What are your thoughts on returning it and going a tad smaller to get a really well cut stone? It would not make me happy to have
a large stone but have it look dull in most lighting. Just not worth it. I would rather go a tad smaller and get a stone that is going
to preform well in all lighting. Just the fact that I know that its not a top performer would make me second guess buying it every
time I looked at it (but thats me...you have to decide how you feel).

 

[tonyc2387]

Date: 11/25/2009 4:24:47 AM
Author: Lorelei
I am not surprised it looked good in the showroom in that sort of lighting, what I would do if you are unsure, take the diamond on a test drive, check it out in daylight and as many different lighting conditions as you can, you might see it goes dead sometimes and might show a dark ring around the table facet. Then make your decision based on how it looks in everyday wearing conditions.

Lorelei,

I know this is great advice... but I can''t help but wonder if it''s a moot point? Once he gets it set in his Leon, depending on the setting he chooses, won''t it drastically affect how much light gets into the diamond and from where? If so, isn''t it a lot more likely then to bring out the "undesirable" characteristics of a steep/deep? I dunno, I just would hate to have him go "its such a beautiful diamond everywhere", get it set in an intricate halo/bezel, and go "ohcrap that looks really bad"...

jgny,
A complete shot in the dark here, as I have no idea whether it''s really feasible... but if you''re comfortable with dropping the weight a little, perhaps consider talking to someone like BGD to get it recut?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/25/2009 9:26:23 AM
Author: tonyc2387

Date: 11/25/2009 4:24:47 AM
Author: Lorelei
I am not surprised it looked good in the showroom in that sort of lighting, what I would do if you are unsure, take the diamond on a test drive, check it out in daylight and as many different lighting conditions as you can, you might see it goes dead sometimes and might show a dark ring around the table facet. Then make your decision based on how it looks in everyday wearing conditions.

Lorelei,

I know this is great advice... but I can't help but wonder if it's a moot point? Once he gets it set in his Leon, depending on the setting he chooses, won't it drastically affect how much light gets into the diamond and from where? If so, isn't it a lot more likely then to bring out the 'undesirable' characteristics of a steep/deep? I dunno, I just would hate to have him go 'its such a beautiful diamond everywhere', get it set in an intricate halo/bezel, and go 'ohcrap that looks really bad'...

jgny,
A complete shot in the dark here, as I have no idea whether it's really feasible... but if you're comfortable with dropping the weight a little, perhaps consider talking to someone like BGD to get it recut?

Tony, the setting really won't make any difference. As I said above this diamond is quite steep deep and the chances are it is going to show leakage. Yes a recut is a possibility, but my feelings on that with a brand new purchase are that it is better to return the diamond and get something better cut in the first place, recutting isn't without risk and not all diamonds are suitable to undergo this procedure.

 

[FB.]

Date: 11/25/2009 9:46:12 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 11/25/2009 9:26:23 AM
Author: tonyc2387

Date: 11/25/2009 4:24:47 AM
Author: Lorelei
I am not surprised it looked good in the showroom in that sort of lighting, what I would do if you are unsure, take the diamond on a test drive, check it out in daylight and as many different lighting conditions as you can, you might see it goes dead sometimes and might show a dark ring around the table facet. Then make your decision based on how it looks in everyday wearing conditions.

Lorelei,

I know this is great advice... but I can''t help but wonder if it''s a moot point? Once he gets it set in his Leon, depending on the setting he chooses, won''t it drastically affect how much light gets into the diamond and from where? If so, isn''t it a lot more likely then to bring out the ''undesirable'' characteristics of a steep/deep? I dunno, I just would hate to have him go ''its such a beautiful diamond everywhere'', get it set in an intricate halo/bezel, and go ''ohcrap that looks really bad''...

jgny,
A complete shot in the dark here, as I have no idea whether it''s really feasible... but if you''re comfortable with dropping the weight a little, perhaps consider talking to someone like BGD to get it recut?

Tony, the setting really won''t make any difference.

If anything, the design of the setting might make it worse by partially or completely depriving a steep/deep from having much light entering the pavilion and reflect out the top. The result being an increased prominence of the dark ring around the edge of the table that is typical of steep/deep.

 

[tonyc2387]

Date: 11/25/2009 9:46:12 AM
Author: Lorelei
Tony, the setting really won''t make any difference. As I said above this diamond is quite steep deep and the chances are it is going to show leakage. Yes a recut is a possibility, but my feelings on that with a brand new purchase are that it is better to return the diamond and get something better cut in the first place, recutting isn''t without risk and not all diamonds are suitable to undergo this procedure.

Thanks, Lorelei. Yeah I can understand from the numbers why it scored what it did... it''s more than a degree (crown) and half a degree (pavilion) beyond many of the other stones that are classified as steep/deep around here. As for the recut, I was just throwing it out there as one of the many options available to him... but with the huge table and bad angles, I wouldn''t be surprised if it wasn''t suitable without having to take off a substantial amount of weight. However, I figured I''d let an expert make that call... if nothing else, it doesn''t hurt to ask

 

[jgny]

Lorelei an FB - thanks for the quick input. Bout of insomnia last night led me to surfing on pricescope and subsequent freak out.
Tyty - am open to returning but not sure how that would work. Our contact in in another country so returning is quite a hassle - not to mention that potential "losing face" it would mean for us to go back and tell them we want a different diamond. Would another dealer buy the diamond? If we were to get the replacement through them?
Tony - thanks for thinking out of the box, but I would rather just return and get another one. I definitely want to avoid an oh crap that looks really bad moment.

In terms of the mounting, I am going for a total look like this:

The basket and band is similar to this:

and it will be in a cushion halo (very minimal. very small melee) similar to the Tacori 2620.

 

[John P]

Date: 11/25/2009 10:00:49 AM
Author: tonyc2387

Date: 11/25/2009 9:46:12 AM
Author: Lorelei
Tony, the setting really won''t make any difference. As I said above this diamond is quite steep deep and the chances are it is going to show leakage. Yes a recut is a possibility, but my feelings on that with a brand new purchase are that it is better to return the diamond and get something better cut in the first place, recutting isn''t without risk and not all diamonds are suitable to undergo this procedure.

Thanks, Lorelei. Yeah I can understand from the numbers why it scored what it did... it''s more than a degree (crown) and half a degree (pavilion) beyond many of the other stones that are classified as steep/deep around here. As for the recut, I was just throwing it out there as one of the many options available to him... but with the huge table and bad angles, I wouldn''t be surprised if it wasn''t suitable without having to take off a substantial amount of weight. However, I figured I''d let an expert make that call... if nothing else, it doesn''t hurt to ask

In a best case scenario you''re talking a loss of 0.25ct for a nice 60/60 make.

With circa 9.15mm avg diameter and 5.70mm depth, the crown height is near 13.3% or 1.20mm. You cannot "add" crown so the most conservative recut maintains 1.20mm, repolishing the bezels to 34.0 for a 60% table and the pavilion mains to 41.0 degrees. With exceptional planning and cutting it''s in the neighborhood of 2.75 ct, but that estimate also depends on unknown issues and details of the current stone.

 

[Judah Gutwein]

I am a HUGE proponent of these tools and use all of them.

Still, their greatest strength (and perhaps their purpose) is to enable the consumer to reject diamonds they (typically) haven't s@@n and often because they don't have the luxury of viewing them in person.

I think in fairness to yourself and to your jeweler, perhaps you can view this from a different perspective as a few others have already touched upon in this thread.

You have actually seen this diamond and are currently in physical possession of it.

You have stated that you trust your jeweler.
You stated that the upgraded diamond is certainly more beautiful than the original one.
You stated that you really love it and wondered whether you are simply second guessing yourself.
You have seen a comparable diamond with a HCA score of 2 for $20k in excess of what you paid and stated that you could not justify the increased cost for the better score.
You stated that the diamond looks great (in showroom) and ostensibly outside as well, since you are currently in physical possession of the stone and didn't say that the stone doesn't look as good outside as it did in the showroom.
You asked your jeweler for a nice stone and didn't "expect" an excellent.
You didn't mention the HCA to your jeweler, who wasn't aware that he was supposed to be choosing based on its rating (it is entirely possible that he doesn't even know what the HCA is....indeed, the majority of jewelers outside of these boards have no idea of its existence, much less what it does).

Perhaps you really have to ask yourself how you personally feel about the diamond you have right in front of you.

Ultimately, you're not wearing the "numbers", you are wearing the stone.

IMO, you like it? Keep it.

 

[tyty333]

Date: 11/25/2009 10:18:16 AM
Author: jgny
Lorelei an FB - thanks for the quick input. Bout of insomnia last night led me to surfing on pricescope and subsequent freak out.
Tyty - am open to returning but not sure how that would work. Our contact in in another country so returning is quite a hassle - not to mention that potential ''losing face'' it would mean for us to go back and tell them we want a different diamond. Would another dealer buy the diamond? If we were to get the replacement through them?
Tony - thanks for thinking out of the box, but I would rather just return and get another one. I definitely want to avoid an oh crap that looks really bad moment.

In terms of the mounting, I am going for a total look like this:

The basket and band is similar to this:

and it will be in a cushion halo (very minimal. very small melee) similar to the Tacori 2620.

Jgny,
If it is returnable, I would return it. There is no "losing face". It is a big expensive purchase and you have learned that the stone is
not what you want (if you have determined this). Selling to another dealer and getting anywhere what you paid for it is usally not
an option

. Have you looked at this stone in lots of different lighting conditions? Just wondering what your thoughts were.
tyty

 

[Cehrabehra]

I''d drop to H VS2 or SI1 and get the better cut diamond. You may have to outright return the one you have to your friend though and buy somewhere else - not sure how that will go over.

 

[Cehrabehra]

if iti s a steep deep, won''t it be a candidate for a recut without losing much faceup?

another thing with a steep deep is it faces up smaller (the diameter is smaller) than another 3 carat of ideal proportions.

For most people here cut is king - even above size, and often above color and almost always above superior clarity. You have a lot of wiggle room in your stone... dropping just below 3.0, lowering color, lowering clarity...

 

[jgny]

Judah - all good points, you have hit on what I am struggling with. In a perfect world, I would have done much more research and been armed with knowledge. Now that I am starting to get educated, I just want to make sure I still love this stone. It is unfair to blame my jeweler (and I don''t, I am just kicking myself). The thing is that I don''t feel the stone "sparkles like mad" - I just picked it up recently and haven''t had a chance to get it out in all different conditions to judge. I''m just wondering if I would be able to get a better cut stone for the same amt of money so I could have that "mad sparkle". Plus a LM setting is not cheap, so I don''t want to get it set if I am not happy with it. I''m going try to attach some pics of the stone...

 

[jgny]

Another pic...

 

[jgny]

From an angle...

 

[jgny]

Is this the light loss I am seeing?

 

[chrono]

Cehra,
This steep deep also has a huge table and not very tall crown height. In order to recut to better proportions, the best is to go with a 60/60 as John Pollard adviced. Crown height cannot be increased more without losing a lot of carat weight and face up size.

 

[Judah Gutwein]

To recut a diamond in this (or any other scenario), carries its own set of problems and risks. Anything can happen to a diamond once it is exposed to the cutting wheel. What happens if the stone fractures? A gletz exposed? Too much weight taken off? New certificate not dovetailing with the old one (different color/clarity grade). Etc. etc. etc.

Who shoulders the burden of these considerable risks? Diamond cutter? Vendor? Customer?
I highly doubt whether any jeweler would expose themselves to such risk. In fact, I would imagine that a jeweler would sooner leave an upgrade or a potential sale on the table rather than incur the substantial risk involved here...on their own dime.

This is not a feasible option.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/25/2009 10:44:22 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
if iti s a steep deep, won't it be a candidate for a recut without losing much faceup?

another thing with a steep deep is it faces up smaller (the diameter is smaller) than another 3 carat of ideal proportions.

For most people here cut is king - even above size, and often above color and almost always above superior clarity. You have a lot of wiggle room in your stone... dropping just below 3.0, lowering color, lowering clarity...

Trouble is Cehra that as you know a recut isn't without risk, if the diamond broke or shattered whilst being recut the owner has to take the loss....I would really rather buy a decently cut stone in the first place.

ETA - ditto Judah.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/25/2009 10:47:27 AM
Author: jgny
Is this the light loss I am seeing?

Looks like it from what I can see from the photos.

 

[jgny]

Yikes, I would be terrified to recut the stone! Definitely not an option for me...

 

[jgny]

What are your thoughts on the mounting? Will it help or hinder?

I guess the other thing that I am considering is if this ring was a good "deal" - it''s 3.01 ct, F color, VS1 clarity. What would be considered an excellent price for a stone such as this?

And how does it work with a return? Will my friend need to buy from the same dealer and I am limited in terms of inventory?

 

[tonyc2387]

Date: 11/25/2009 10:23:52 AM
Author: Judah Gutwein
Ultimately, you''re not wearing the ''numbers'', you are wearing the stone.

Judah, you make a great point. That is one heck of a level-headed response right there.

jg, the way your diamond is cut will lead to visible leakage and other characteristics mentioned here... but Judah''s right, only you can decide if you can readily notice them, if they bother you, and whether you can live with them. Nice setting, btw!

John, thanks for the back-of-the-envelope description on the recut... quite educational

 

[Laila619]

Well for such off proportions, the diamond in the photo doesn't look half bad. I don't see the ring of death. Still if you can return it, I would do that and shop for a more ideal cut stone.

If you keep it, I would definitely NOT set it in a halo or a bezel. It will darken up more, since it is not an ideal cut stone.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/25/2009 10:59:33 AM
Author: jgny
What are your thoughts on the mounting? Will it help or hinder?

I guess the other thing that I am considering is if this ring was a good ''deal'' - it''s 3.01 ct, F color, VS1 clarity. What would be considered an excellent price for a stone such as this?

And how does it work with a return? Will my friend need to buy from the same dealer and I am limited in terms of inventory?

How much did you pay for it? Also what is the diameter measurement of the diamond?

As to the return policy you would need to ask your friend how it would play out, if you can get a refund then you would be free to look elsewhere which might be best.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 11/25/2009 11:04:46 AM
Author: Laila619
Well for such off proportions, the diamond in the photo doesn''t look half bad. I don''t see the ring of death. Still if you can return it, I would do that and shop for a more ideal cut stone.

If you keep it, I would definitely NOT set it in a halo or a bezel. It will darken up more, since it is not an ideal cut stone.

It is there, look closer.

 

[Laila619]

Stone, yeah I can definitely see it in the first and the last photo.