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Found Online Stone in Local Shop

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M

MBA

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
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11
As I posted last week I have decided that I would prefer to purchase my diamond through a local business. I am looking for a 2 carat or so, SI or better, I or better Asscher cut stone. I checked out just about every jewler in town and finally settled on the guy I think I want to buy from and had him start searching for stones.

He called me in today to look at a stone he had shipped in from a cutter for me to look at. I think the stone is beautiful and just what I am looking for, but was not to fond of the price at all. He gave me a copy of the GIA cert for me to take home, and checking online I found that Abazias had the exact same stone listed.


For less than half the price!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This just shifted the power balance greatly towards my side...I now have a good feel for his mark-up, at least on this stone.

I am willing to pay a local guy more than the price of the online vendor, but certainly not double! I am going to go back in tomorrow to see what he can do. Any tips?
 
why not just buy the stone on line and have it set locally...save your self alot of money.
 
Printing out the online price & taking it in is the only thing I can think of ... but ... I'm not sure your B&M is going to be able to come close to that "online" price.

He may be paying a higher mark up to the supplier (because, perhaps he does less biz with them than a large online merchant) ... OR ... he might not want to start a precedent of selling stones at "discount" prices -- for fear others will find out & want the same kind of "deal".

Give them the chance -- but, honestly think about how much $$$ you want to give the jeweler for his local service ... versus ... getting the same stone online from someone without the same overhead. I believe in buying local too -- but on a big ticket item, where it's PURE PROFIT, sometimes it's your best interest & your $$ versus theirs. Who do you pick?


eta: can you give us the stats on the stone w/o the #. I'm a little worried about an SI asscher cut (inclusions are so visible in "open" stones like this -- especially at the 2 ct. size)
 
the local guy may have more overhead and therefore make less of a profit on the stone than an online vendor, though B&M''s typically have a higher markup just in general than an online vendor, also they may offer more ''services''....but you have to decide how much extra YOU want to pay for the local service. that is going to be different for everyone.

for me personally i tend to want to buy online, i have a good relationship with a helpful offline jeweler but i don''t get my diamonds there. i may get settings or smaller pieces but not my diamonds...the savings is too great (and for me as a RB lover, the cut quality) online. good luck whatever you decide!
 
Local B&M's have much higher overheads than internet vendors. You can go to your local guy and let him know you found the same exact stone on the internet and see what he's willing to do for you price wise. Or buy from the online vendor and call it a day.
2.gif
But if this local jeweler has been doing some searching for you, it's nice to give him a chance to come close to the price. Plus it's good to have a local guy check the ring, the prongs, do repairs and clean it etc.... Asschers aren't easy to find, at least the good ones aren't and I bet this local guy did some work in hunting this stone down for you. So give him a chance to give you a price you can both agree upon. JMHO, good luck!!
1.gif
 
MBA,

Don't print the page from Abazias. All you'll do is embarrass the jeweler and make him furious with his supplier. Right now there is only one company in the world that can sell you *that* diamond - the guy holding the stone. I've seen situations like this where the jeweler gets mad and buys the diamond for personal stock, just to spite the online dealer and prevent any dot com sale. If that happens then you'll either pay his price or have to shop for a different diamond.

A tact that might be a bit more successful is to reason with the guy. Mention that you've done some research on the internet and you've become a little bit price sensitive. Let him know that you've found similar diamonds online selling for quite a bit less. You can even show him examples if you like - just not this stone. Let *him* be the one to go home that night and find the stone on Abazias! Give him a chance to lower his price on his terms. Ask him what kind of a deal he can do for you if you also buy a setting. Who knows - he might have something under the counter that he can offer you at a great price and in effect make the "package deal" a little more competitive. Also, keep in mind that he may not be getting the diamond directly from the same person as the online company - there might be someone in between. That means his profit may not be as high as you think.

In the end you'll have to decide which services are worth most to you, and make your decision from there...
 
Date: 6/20/2006 8:32:31 PM
Author: James Allen Schultz
MBA,

Don't print the page from Abazias. All you'll do is embarrass the jeweler and make him furious with his supplier. Right now there is only one company in the world that can sell you *that* diamond - the guy holding the stone. I've seen situations like this where the jeweler gets mad and buys the diamond for personal stock, just to spite the online dealer and prevent any dot com sale. If that happens then you'll either pay his price or have to shop for a different diamond.

A tact that might be a bit more successful is to reason with the guy. Mention that you've done some research on the internet and you've become a little bit price sensitive. Let him know that you've found similar diamonds online selling for quite a bit less. You can even show him examples if you like - just not this stone. Let *him* be the one to go home that night and find the stone on Abazias! Give him a chance to lower his price on his terms. Ask him what kind of a deal he can do for you if you also buy a setting. Who knows - he might have something under the counter that he can offer you at a great price and in effect make the 'package deal' a little more competitive. Also, keep in mind that he may not be getting the diamond directly from the same person as the online company - there might be someone in between. That means his profit may not be as high as you think.

In the end you'll have to decide which services are worth most to you, and make your decision from there...
Click to expand...

MBA,

I disagree with James here. Print the Abazias ad, show it to the jeweler and discuss the problem with them. They are already aware of the issue although not with this specific stone, and you are doing them no favors to pretend it doesn’t exist. Their livelihood depends on it. Don’t discount the possibility that the Abazias advertisement is simply an error by the way. I suspect your numbers are probably legitimate offers but because of the way the ‘virtual’ lists work, it’s not all that unusual for undetected errors to creep into these advertisements.

Obviously you feel that this jeweler has done something to earn your business and that your purchase will be ‘worth’ more if you buy it from them. This is a compliment and what’s going on now is a haggling over the price of that extra something that they are bringing to the deal. They undoubtedly won’t be happy about discussing precisely what their personal contribution is worth but it’s really the heart of the issue. Bet on it that they’re going to be PO’d at their supplier over this and it’s not out of the question that this will be the end of that relationship, but this is the reason you should be upfront with them. Once again, their livelihood depends on it.

There is a growing schism going on in the wholesale world because some jewelers want their suppliers to refuse to offer goods to certain clients because they will then be offered for sale in the form of the ‘virtual’ lists. They correctly feel that consumers generally vastly underestimate how expensive all of those ‘free’ services are and, since they can get most of them for free by ducking out right before the payment comes due, they don’t really care. The jeweler gets stuck with the bills and Abazias (or someone else) gets the money. This is the curse of the retail diamond dealer. ‘Why should I buy from you and your supply chain instead of from Abazias and theirs?’ It’s really a pretty good question and they should be prepared to answer it.

Will they buy it for inventory just to spite Abazias? Possibly. It’s even possible that they, or some middleman, already has. What’s wrong with that? If they do, I would surely expect them to offer it to you for a good price given the current set of events, perhaps even matching the Abazias offer, assuming it’s not an error.

Is there an invisible middleman who is raising the prices to them without adding any value? Maybe. If so, you’re doing them a favor to bring it to light and you’re jeweler may need to be seeking different sources in the future. If they can’t get it for less than Abazias is charging, THEY can always buy from Abazias.

If the jeweler can’t make you a better total deal than their competitors when all the facts are known by everyone, they should get out of the business. The best deal isn’t always the one with the lowest prices and the value of the whole package is exactly what you’re negotiating. What do they offer, and what does it cost? They have already given you quite a lot of value for ‘free’. They have established contacts and searched on your behalf, they have allowed you to use their viewing environment, they have shipped the stone, they have provided you good council, they have put their reputation on the line. They have done all of this in the hopes of being paid at the end. Their supplier has empowered a competitor to undercut them at the last step, after incurred the majority of their expenses but before they get paid. They see this as a betrayal by the supplier and it's the reason why they might take steps to prevent it from happening again. They may be right. It depends on the relationship they have with the supplier. What can they do about it? Plenty. Work with suppliers who don’t do this. Offer fewer add-on services so that they can lower their prices. Make their package so good that people don’t mind the price. Make their profits on something else. Stop selling diamonds. Sell to customers who like their value added elements and are willing to pay for them, even when they know the price. Charge a fee for those ‘free’ services.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 
Date: 6/21/2006 9:02:34 AM
Author: denverappraiser




What can they do about it? Plenty. Work with suppliers who don’t do this. Offer fewer add-on services so that they can lower their prices. Make their package so good that people don’t mind the price. Make their profits on something else. Stop selling diamonds. Sell to customers like their value added elements and are willing to pay for them, even when they know the price. Charge a fee for those ‘free’ services.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...
..., be a Jeweler more than a diamond dealer - offer original design ideas, draw with customer, have a best bench in town,...
 
Date: 6/20/2006 8:32:31 PM
Author: James Allen Schultz
MBA,

Don''t print the page from Abazias. All you''ll do is embarrass the jeweler and make him furious with his supplier. Right now there is only one company in the world that can sell you *that* diamond - the guy holding the stone. I''ve seen situations like this where the jeweler gets mad and buys the diamond for personal stock, just to spite the online dealer and prevent any dot com sale. If that happens then you''ll either pay his price or have to shop for a different diamond.

A tact that might be a bit more successful is to reason with the guy. Mention that you''ve done some research on the internet and you''ve become a little bit price sensitive. Let him know that you''ve found similar diamonds online selling for quite a bit less. You can even show him examples if you like - just not this stone. Let *him* be the one to go home that night and find the stone on Abazias! Give him a chance to lower his price on his terms. Ask him what kind of a deal he can do for you if you also buy a setting. Who knows - he might have something under the counter that he can offer you at a great price and in effect make the ''package deal'' a little more competitive. Also, keep in mind that he may not be getting the diamond directly from the same person as the online company - there might be someone in between. That means his profit may not be as high as you think.

In the end you''ll have to decide which services are worth most to you, and make your decision from there...
Click to expand...
I would tend to agree with this approach. Mostly because going the route of printing out of that diamond at Abaz. is more sensitive & difficult to handle. Most people will just p*ss the jeweler off.

I would do a little more investigating. I would absolutely expect to pay more (and would do so) going with my hometown jeweler route - but - I''m sorry - more than double in price (if that is what I interpreted) is userous. If this is the case with other diamonds I''d walk away. My prediction is that you will bring up the internet diamonds and he will go into "all the diamonds are fake on the net" routine.

Good luck though! Can''t help but try and give the guy a shot!
 
Thank you all so much for all the great advice, I very much need all the help I can get.

Well, I went in to see the jeweler today and talk about the price of this stone. I decided not to tell him that I had found the exact stone...but did mention that I had been shopping around and noted prices for very similiar stones being significantly cheaper. He did not bash or bad mouth the online vendors at all, he simply pointed out all the good points of buying from him. I reallly respected the fact that he took the high road and showed what his competitive advantage was rather than down talk online stores.

He was willing to lower the price substantially, but I still feel that he should go lower. I will be going back in tomorrow to try some more. Here are the specifics:

2.00carat
SI1 (I have seen the stone and it has a few feathers that are only visible from the bottom)
I color
(cannot remember the dimensions and other stats right now)

Abazias is askinging $11.5
Jeweler originally asked $23.5

I got him down to $15k
($8,500 drop in price!)

He is still $3.5k higher than the online price. His price includes setting the stone and all those issues, as well as lifetime of free cleaning and a few other things. He will also have the ring shipped out of state for me to avoid taxes.

I think a $3.5k premium is still a little high, what do you all think?
 
$3500 extra is probably not bad for a regular jeweler especially since it includes the setting. I''m fairly amazed you got him down that far. However, I personally would buy online and clean my stone myself!
 
Date: 6/21/2006 7:57:44 PM
Author: MBA
Thank you all so much for all the great advice, I very much need all the help I can get.

Well, I went in to see the jeweler today and talk about the price of this stone. I decided not to tell him that I had found the exact stone...but did mention that I had been shopping around and noted prices for very similiar stones being significantly cheaper. He did not bash or bad mouth the online vendors at all, he simply pointed out all the good points of buying from him. I reallly respected the fact that he took the high road and showed what his competitive advantage was rather than down talk online stores.

He was willing to lower the price substantially, but I still feel that he should go lower. I will be going back in tomorrow to try some more. Here are the specifics:

2.00carat
SI1 (I have seen the stone and it has a few feathers that are only visible from the bottom)
I color
(cannot remember the dimensions and other stats right now)

Abazias is askinging $11.5
Jeweler originally asked $23.5

I got him down to $15k
($8,500 drop in price!)

He is still $3.5k higher than the online price. His price includes setting the stone and all those issues, as well as lifetime of free cleaning and a few other things. He will also have the ring shipped out of state for me to avoid taxes.

I think a $3.5k premium is still a little high, what do you all think?
Click to expand...
He sounds like a good guy. Love that he didn''t bash the internet vendors. I''d go in tomorrow and see if you can get him to lower the price a bit more. I don''t think he''ll come down a whole lot more but who knows?? Anyway good luck and let us know how it goes!!!
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I don''t mind paying extra for retail service, but not an extra 100%. His first price quote and subsequent drop makes it seem like he wwas trying to take advantage of you.
 
Date: 6/21/2006 9:34:09 PM
Author: SquareCut
I don''t mind paying extra for retail service, but not an extra 100%. His first price quote and subsequent drop makes it seem like he wwas trying to take advantage of you.
Click to expand...
Precisely. If this is the stone for you, then by all means work with this jeweler. I have serious concerns about his initial quote. More than double in price does not make this guy very nice or credible.
 
Date: 6/21/2006 7:57:44 PM
Author: MBA
He will also have the ring shipped out of state for me to avoid taxes.
Click to expand...
That''s a felony in some states.
Drops price 8.5k and engages in a conspiracy to commit a felony.
Nice guy yep.
 
MBA..I don''t think that $3500 over what the online price is is too high but I don''t know if *I* would pay it. What is local peace of mind worth to you? To some people it''s worth enough. That said, you can go in and say okay I''ll take the stone for $13500. See what he says!

I know that double the price is insane and yes the fact that he can drop it so much is kind of like HMM but you got what you wanted right, a great stone from a local jeweler who will work things out with you, and doesn''t bash the internet or try to tell you tales. If it''s important to you to build this relationship, then do so. SO if you can get him down a little more then I would say go for it. Otherwise shop online. Good luck!
 
I''m still curious about THE STATS, the dimensions, to see if this is even an Asscher that fits the "most desireable" critera. It''s possible you shouldn''t buy it AT ANY PRICE. Though, I guess if it looks good to you, and you trust your own knowledge of Asschers it comes back down to just price.

I wouldn''t feel good about paying $3.5K to a vendor for a) setting the stone (not even THE SETTING - just the ACT of setting the stone) and b) lifetime cleanings. There is value in having found the stone (IF it''s even a good one, which we don''t know). Figure out what that value is to you and offer that much above the "web price". Say - $500. That''s a solid days work. A respectible amount. Maybe, maybe $1000. But anymore .... ?

FYI -- I think you''ll find that ANY jewelry store your fiance walks into with a 2 carat Asscher on her hand will offer to clean the stone FOR FREE -- because she will look like someone with $$ to spend on OTHER merchandise. Make sense?
 
Having a local jeweler means very little to me. I would always pay the cheaper price, whether that be online or local.

I agree with everything Storm said as well.

Oh, and I clean my diamond myself and do a better job than any jewlery store could
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When I was in this same situation, I calculated my best offer based on internet price + 10%.

I figured the convenience of the B&M was worth something to me. (But I realize not everybody can visit a store on their lunch hour and look at dozens of diamonds like I did.)
They could call stones if necessary, have a 100% lifetime upgrade policy and carry decent settings.

So, OK that is worth something.

But on the other hand, if you want convenience (this applies to rounds more than fancies) you can go to a WhiteFlash or a JamesAllen website, pick & click, enter your VISA card number and have a gorgeuous stone within 48 hours.

That's pretty convenient, too.
 
MBA,

Also, don't forget to check the local jewelers trade up policy. Will he offer a full price credit for that stone in the future if you decide to buy up? Both James Allen and Whiteflash do, however, the policies vary greatly.

My local jeweler will always offer a full price credit for the stone in the event of an upgrade.
 
I actually got my diamond from Abazias several years ago and had a good experience with them, but keep in mind they are a drop ship vendor. They no longer have diamonds shipped to them for inspection and advising you on what they are seeing, as your jeweler has done for you. This industry seems to me to be changing and very dynamic right now, and if we want local jewelers, we have to support them. I agree that paying more than twice is out of the question, but considering your jeweler''s expenses of actually having a store for you to come into and providing the services that Abazias is not able to, and the fact that he''s probably not getting the volume discount that Abazias gets, $3000-3500 more doesn''t sound too far out to me. Some other hidden values to look for would be the return/upgrade policy of Abazias vs. your jewler. Abazias has a limited selection of settings -- what does your jeweler have? Can he give you a good deal on the setting if you buy the diamond from him? Will he set the diamond in his setting if you buy it on line (or is there another trusted jeweler locally who will)? I personally value my local jewelers highly. I am very nervous about shipping jewelry to have it repaired. I won''t even have it repaired at a jewelery store that "sends it out to the bench" -- I want it repaired at the store. I have heard several stories of items that have been stolen or lost in shipment, and while that''s probably pretty rare, I really don''t want to ship my jewelry to be sized or repaired, plus if I''m not happy with the work, then I have to ship it back and forth again. So *for me* I need my local jeweler. I was able to find one that would set my on-line purchase, though, and that certainly affected my decision to purchase on line. If I couldn''t have found someone to set it locally I probably wouldn''t have bought on-line.
 
Date: 6/22/2006 2:30:25 PM
Author: lumpkin
$3000-3500 more doesn''t sound too far out to me.
Click to expand...

The way I look at it is that it doesn''t take a lot more work to bring in a 10K or 20K stone than it does a 2K stone ... would you expect the folks whose budget is for a 2K stone to pay a 3K markup?

The amount "more" MBA is paying is some folks whole budget!

I mean, a 3K profit on a 11K stone?
 
Here are the specs

GIA
6.90*6.69*4.71
2.00 Carat
70.4% Depth
66% Table
TK-VTK Girdle
No Culet
No Fluor.
SI1
I color
Excelent Polish
Good Symmetry

$15k

Thanks again for all the advice!
 
He showed me another stone today:

EGL
1.72 carat
6.75*6.72*4.63
68.9% Depth
62%Table
15.2%Crown
48.5%Paviolion
Thick Girdle
No Culet
Very Good Polish
Good Symmetry
SI1
E color
No fluor.

$14,000

How does this sound?
 
Also,

Does it cost him anything to hold these stones?
(ie) is he charged by the day, or does he have a time limit, etc?
 
Date: 6/22/2006 4:17:24 PM
Author: MBA
Here are the specs
GIA
6.90*6.69*4.71
2.00 Carat
70.4% Depth
66% Table
TK-VTK Girdle
No Culet
No Fluor.
SI1
I color
Excelent Polish
Good Symmetry
$15k
Thanks again for all the advice!
Click to expand...

Thanks for more scoop, MBA. I had a feeling that the cut wasn''t ideal based on the 2 carat weight/11K price. It seems to me, a non-pro, like this stone was cut to "meet the 2 carat mark" and not for optimum beauty. Very thick girdle, for example, can be a way to hold onto stone weight without enhancing beauty.

Before you commit to this stone -- here''s my layman/Asscher lover opinion:
* it''s smaller visually & mm-wise than more ideal cut asschers of the 2ct weight
* SI1 isn''t my fave for open cuts like Asschers & Emeralds. Is it eye clean?
* "I" color with no flor -- borderline, depends on your own eyes
* "Good" symmetry ... in jewelry lingo can actually mean "fair" ... NOT DESIRABLE for Asscher cuts especially. They depend on symmetry for their unique look.
* Table size (usually under 65% or even 60% -depending on who you talk to is most wanted)
* Depth ... very deep & in combo with big table & wide girdle ==
14.gif


Overall, I don''t like it "by the numbers" ... but I haven''t seen it - you have ... so ... grain of salt.
2.gif
A lot of times folks come on here to get help picking out these tricky little critters ... you''re mostly asking about price, so I don''t want to be giving you answers to questions you''re not really asking ... but I sincerely want you to get a great stone (especially for the $$ you''re spending!)
 
Check this one out for comparison ... 1.92 hand selected G, EX EX

It''s actually BIGGER than the 2 carat stone you''re looking at.

GIA
G
VS1
7.07 x 7.01 x 4.77
Polish EX
Symm EX
Table: 61%
Depth: 68%

192gogasscher.jpg
 
I welcome any and all advice decodelighted, thank you!

Both stones were eye clean when viewed from the top...and I think I may be able to see something in each from the bottom.
Also, I think I can see the faint hint of yellow in the I colored stone...but maybe I am imagining things?

This is a link to the look I am shooting for...not the size. Its the first set of 4 pictures.
http://www.nelsonrarities.com/dir01-12/gallery.html

I am becoming unsure of these two stones...I am getting cold feet at this large of a cash outflow.

what do you all think of the 1.72 stone?

I was hoping to spend less than 15k for a stone...and would prefer to be around the 12k range at my local jeweler.
 
Date: 6/22/2006 3:17:45 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 6/22/2006 2:30:25 PM
Author: lumpkin
$3000-3500 more doesn''t sound too far out to me.
Click to expand...

The way I look at it is that it doesn''t take a lot more work to bring in a 10K or 20K stone than it does a 2K stone ... would you expect the folks whose budget is for a 2K stone to pay a 3K markup?

The amount ''more'' MBA is paying is some folks whole budget!

I mean, a 3K profit on a 11K stone?
Click to expand...
I don''t think stores base their profit on actual dollars, but by percentages. The mark up for a $2000 stone is not going to be the same amount of dollars for a $11,000 one. But the percentage is probably similar. I would love one of the vendors to weigh in on whether or not it costs more to bring in a more expensive diamond than a much less expensive one. I think it''s all relative, because some people''s total budget is $500 - 1000 for bridal jewelry. We really don''t have any idea what the local jeweler''s markup/expenses are, but I''ll bet the expenses are far more than those of a drop ship vendor. It''s a matter of where one places the value and, as Richard broke down very well, how much you value those services. Some value them, some don''t.

I am curious to see how the negotiations progress. And of course to see the beautiful diamond once the deal is done.
9.gif
 
HA HA HA ... MBA, the pix you linked to is my all time fave Asscher!!! Well ... you've got GREAT taste we know now!!
3.gif


I didn't like the #s on the 2nd stone either ... that's why I started looking around online. I think the GOG stone is just over 17K (according to the Pricscope search engine ... it says "call for price" on the site)

I helped pick out my own Asscher (who are we kidding - I PICKED, picked it!) It doesn't have "ideal" #s across the board but I loved it in person and it was in budget. I wanted Very Good or above on Polish & Sym. I wanted "H" color or better. I wanted VS2 or better clarity (because flaws are so visible) ... ended up with VVs1. I compromised on table size (67%) and length/width ratio.

I think it might be hard to find "ideal" stats in a 2 ct stone for 12K online, or off ... but I would keep looking, beyond the two you saw in person. UNLESS you fell in love & would be heartbroken to let one go. I'll put it this way - neither are "bargains" if that was the primary draw.


ETA: I did a Pricescope search and if you're comfortable with "I" color you have some 12Kish options w/ better stats than the two you've seen .... including this one from Whiteflash that's also currently listed with other vendors including Mondera for 14,440K!!
23.gif
... whiteflash price with p-scope discount $12,969.
 
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