For those who chose not to have children

[Matata]

Parenthood clarity therapist advice:

I help people decide if they want to have kids. Here’s my advice.

A parenthood clarity therapist explains how she helps fence sitters make one of the most important decisions of their lives.

www.vox.com

 

[TooPatient]

I think what most posters are objecting to—in terms of those of us who talk about being mothers—is that we sound like we are gloating. We choose to focus on all the positives, (especially the more far removed we are from the baby years,) the more biased we are about how proud we are of our offspring and the role that we had in raising them. I can admit to that and can see how that is annoying bc it glosses over all the hardships and risks and sacrifices that many of us endured in the process. We don’t talk about how heartbroken we were when our teens endured their first heartbreak or their first failure. You get the idea. Most parents whose kids end up in prison, are drug addicts, etc. are not posting on a jewelry forum, after all.

Oh, boy the horror stories available! Yes, most won't speak up even if they are in a group like this. It isn't something most people want to share with the world.

My grandparents had four kids:
1. Died < 50 from alcohol
2. Died < 50 from alcohol
3. Lived at home on and off until a couple of years ago, alcoholic
4. Currently living at home after (another) divorce from (another) disgusting man with her kids and the (also disgusting) boyfriend/cousin.
Grandkids? Not doing much better with one or two exceptions.
Other grandparents?
1. Drug addict who may or may not still be alive
2. Alcoholic
3. Odd, but sane and responsible.

We have multiple friends who have dealt with kids who have alcohol/drug issues or who steal/abuse/etc. Otherwise healthy people who are volunteers of the year, active parents in school activities, doing everything "right" with another kid or two that are well adjusted and "successful" --- crazy things can happen no matter how good of a parent you are.

 

[LilAlex]

Always interesting to me that parents just absolutely MUST butt in and talk about how wonderful it is, even if the thread is specifically titled for people who don't have children...

Oh come on! Surely you have seen a "For those who love halos..." post that had responses from some folks who did not stop by to say how much they love halos .

Folks are trying to contribute to the conversation. Like me. I had zero (ZERO!) interest in having kids or in being a parent. It was super-important to my spouse, though, so I played along. I felt no attachment when my first was born -- it was actually really scary. (It was a tough delivery and I was distracted by her health.) Took about 2 - 3 days -- when I could discern her patterns and personality and my life has never been the same.

It is a monumental amount of work. And (with luck) it is a forever thing. And you truly are only as happy as your least happy child. There are broken hearts and broken bones and...

 

[telephone89]

Oh come on! Surely you have seen a "For those who love halos..." post that had responses from some folks who did not stop by to say how much they love halos .

Folks are trying to contribute to the conversation. Like me. I had zero (ZERO!) interest in having kids or in being a parent. It was super-important to my spouse, though, so I played along. I felt no attachment when my first was born -- it was actually really scary. (It was a tough delivery and I was distracted by her health.) Took about 2 - 3 days -- when I could discern her patterns and personality and my life has never been the same.

It is a monumental amount of work. And (with luck) it is a forever thing. And you truly are only as happy as your least happy child. There are broken hearts and broken bones and...

Did you read my follow up?
Honestly some of the posts in this thread are kind of icky, especially the one trying to shit on people who don’t have kids for eco reasons. If you feel the need to post or justify having children I guess congrats.

 

[MoxiRoxi]

I can only speak to my sons experience with not wanting children. even when he was a teenager, he always said he didn’t want them and I always said… you might change your mind.

Well, he’s married and with his wife for over ten years and neither one of them have changed their mind. They have 2 pups, a turtle and a fish… all,living perfectly harmoniously with their choice to not have little humans.

they still have time to change their minds, but I just don’t see it happening. They are so content and their reasons for not wanting them still ring true.

~M ~

 

[LilAlex]

If you feel the need to post or justify having children I guess congrats.

I did neither. Was not asking for congrats. My post was neither pro- nor anti-kid. Just pointing out that one's opinion can change -- from my experience I do not think it is a hard-wired thing as many seem to suggest. Obviously a big gamble if you are not all-in on the idea.

I guess the mods can delete this and all the posts from people who did not fulfill the official entry criteria for this thread.

I am sorry you feel the way that you do. Peace.

 

[Begonia]

I never wanted kids, and wasn't into dolls or babysitting. I did babysit and put the kids to bed 10 minutes after the parents left (as a teen). I didn't hate children, but I didn't particularly like them. I still feel that way, altho kids strangely do like me a lot. I don't treat them like children, I treat them like people.

I grew up in a small family, with an abusive father and an abused and frustrated mother. No grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins etc. Perhaps wanting to create a family had something to do with having children, altho it wasn't a conscious thought.

5 years into our marriage, my sister and SIL got pregnant. I was 32, and not particularly mature for my age, and felt pressure to keep up. Hubbie said he'd like kids, so pregnant we became. I didn't ask any of the big questions about the earth, health, passing on my genes etc. I'm not proud of it, but we jumped into the deep end of the pool without much thought.

It was tough. The pregnancies were fine, but childbirth was tough and I had postpartum depression with both boys, and both had colic as well. Having no extended family, parenting was 24/7 our responsibility through all the years. Additionally having an abusive childhood had me revisting those memories as my kids grew, and I had to do a lot of work on my self not to lapse into abusive behaviors. That took a lot of work.

I stayed home with them and never really launched into a career, so that was sacrificed. We rarely traveled and as for clothes, eating out, and beloved bling...very little. Looking back on it, I lost myself quite a bit whilst mothering and the hardest part is I feel about 38, when I'm really 55. Lost some years too.

They're 23 and 19 now. Two kind and funny and gentle and sensitive lads. My love and attachment to them makes my heart ache sometimes. It also makes me so vulnerable to their loss, should something happen.

Having kids was the best and the worst thing I've ever done.

I support you all in your decision.

 

[theredspinel]

Wow, again. Really hate having the need to say this but if you truly can’t read an opposing opinion without feeling like it’s being forced upon you or personally attacked - you aren’t at peace with your own decision as much as you think you are.

@nala think I clarified when I said I’m in control I don’t mean in control of my kids - I don’t seek control of my kids. I’m just in control of my own life and yes @diamondyes I do feel what you said:

“ I really admire that you’ve been able to travel and not feel constrained in your life as a parent. I wonder if this speaks to your personality, your parenting style, the resources available to you, or all of the above?”

Is a huge part of it. I have 1 “sick” child, we travelled across two different continents just for fun/exploring purposes with her travelling with a gastrectomy bag when she was a toddler. I travelled when my kids were babies and they didn’t sleep through the night until they were about 4!! Life WAS tough, there were many tears (mine haha) but my point always was, if we stopped something just because it was tough - we would not get up in the mornings!

I won’t go into all the other hardships one faces as a parent because really, really it’s just common sense. I don’t understand why posters here think if it’s not detailed here in text, you’re gloating and saying it didn’t happen?!

So @diamondyes yes, how constrained you feel as a parent is definitely in huge part down to your own mentality / perspective. I refuse/d to become constrained by my circumstances, whatever the circumstances. Most people alongside me do not choose this, and I can understand how it’s difficult.

It’s funny but in all my positiveness and can do attitude what I actually still struggle with adjusting to is working full time!!! THAT makes me lose sleep, THAT is hard to commit to for 60+ years, THAT is scary knowing how many things can go wrong (what will I get at the end of it, will I have job security, will I have a decent pension, will my current employer not fire me for something silly, will I have a work related accident etc) so again hearing those what ifs with kids on this thread, I really just wanted those people to see/appreciate, what ifs happen in every facet of life.

I still believe not everyone should have kids, no one should judge that, no one should allow themselves to feel judged and get on the defensive (especially when on this thread that’s never happened once)!! Gah at the fact that disclaimer has to be oft repeated as if you’re not talking to sane logical adults.

ETA: if everyone could just feel confident and comfortable with their decisions, this topic wouldn’t have to be as contentious as it’s been. It could be an interesting enlightening discussion (like I have with many of my childless friends) where different preservatives are seen as interesting rather then threatening. I do understand @Matata how many years of ridicule and scorn for your life choice can lead to a skewed perspective and resentment etc, but that’s again true of every facet of life. Believe me - I do not fit into any mainstream anything - so I know something about being sidelined and scorned, about being ostracised for not conforming to the gold standard.

That doesn’t excuse becoming closed minded (not saying you are) but if one can’t hear a different perspective without getting into war mode, that’s closed minded.

 

[Alexiszoe]

I am childless by choice, and in my late 30s (partner in his 40s, and he also doesn't want children). As a teen I knew I didn't want kids - but like you, every single person told me:

"When u get older you will change your mind"
"Once your biological clock starts ticking you will change"
"You will change your mind once you have a kid"
"You will regret it when you are old"


I did grapple with the fear of possible regret - but funnily enough, it was a dream that crystallized my decision.

I dreamt I was pregnant, and felt so horrified and in tears when I woke up. I also need a lot of alone time, and the idea of a child disturbing my peace, taking up my alone time made me feel resentful.

The most honest answer I ever heard was from a friend who has a grown son now.

He told me he loves him dearly, but if he could choose all over again, he would not have children. The difficulty and sacrifices he had to make was just not worth it.

 

[HGar]

I’m to sure whether this is a sad thread, a thought provoking thread or a nasty thread. There seems to be posters who think only their choices are correct and choose to argue rather then accept.

OP, this is a decision only you and your husband can make. My husband and I took 14yrs to make the decision - lost 2 during pregnancy, birthed 3 children who are thankfully thriving and well now aged 16, 14 and 12.

Was there hard times - yes but moreso now in the teenage years then during pregnancy and infant hood. And I had high risk “geriatric” pregnancies but I can honestly say I loved every stinking moment. I think women are amazing to be able to build a fully formed human being - that to me is an amazing miracle. I never felt like I lost friendships / opportunities because of having children but in our case it was because we did start later in life (35yo) which meant we were more established financially / emotionally.

I have two best friends - we have been so since we were 5 and are now turning 52 this year. I had children at 35, 37 and almost 40. One had children at 24 and 26 so hers are now completely grown and off her hands. The third has never had children. I love that we all have a different opinion and view on life. No one’s is more important than the others - we all have made decisions suited to our situations at that time.

By all means read our stories but don’t necessarily build your choices around them. Choose your life journey at this moment but do realise that this world is an ever changing thing and what you think is right now may still be right next year, in ten years or forever or it may morph into something completely different. But that is YOUR journey and you never know what will happen.

 

[missy]

It is a monumental amount of work. And (with luck) it is a forever thing. And you truly are only as happy as your least happy child. There are broken hearts and broken bones and...

This is so poignant. So true. And yes part of the reason I decided kids are not for me.

I didn't explain this in my first post but I will share it here. I am an HSP. Highly sensitive person. But it goes beyond that. I feel things too strongly. I actually feel pain when those I love are hurting. Physical pain. I promise I am not exaggerating. And when I see others in pain, even those I do not know, at times it's unbearable. I cannot watch animal movies. I cannot watch commercials where there is suffering. I just cannot handle it. From a young age I knew this. I also realized I could never have children for this reason. It would be too much for me to bear.

As @LilAlex wisely wrote-you are only as happy as your least happy child. And I will take it a step further. I would literally feel their pain through it all. Childhood and adult hood. It isn't easy being me. I know this comes off as sort of crazy but it is my truth andt it is what it is and this is who I am. And so I have to accept it and make the best of it. And yes this was one of the major reasons I knew kids are not for me. I never had one moment of doubt. And that is saying something for me. Because I second guess a lot of things. But I never second guessed this decision.


To each his/her own. Live and let live. Judge not lest ye be judged...and all that jazz.
As long as you are not hurting others live your life the way you see fit. Truly happy people don't have to judge and criticize others for personal choices they have made. And happy people don't try to tell you how to live your life. JMO.




And you know what? It isn't anyone's business what you do in your personal life. It just isn't. And what you think of me isn't any of my business either. Your opinion is your problem and my opinion is mine.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

This is not to stir the pot but I genuinely wonder how many people with children (young ones especially) would choose differently had they known their children would grow up in a pandemic.

I have young ones. 6 and 1. I would not have chosen differently. There's always something terrible happening in the world and no way to predict the next catastrophe.

 

[wildcat03]

This is not to stir the pot but I genuinely wonder how many people with children (young ones especially) would choose differently had they known their children would grow up in a pandemic.

I would not choose differently. We will navigate our way out of this and normalcy will be (somewhat) restored. As hard as it was going without childcare while both husband and I worked full time (husband from home, me outside the home), I'm grateful for the extra time I've had with my three year old daughter during the pandemic. I'm hopeful that my 4 month old won't have any solid memories of the pandemic, but maybe I'm overly optimistic. My three year old and I are closer for having lived it. I do grieve that she has missed out on some normal parts of toddlerhood, but we do our absolute best for her. Thankfully we found a small, COVID-conscious preschool that she loves. I took her to school on Monday and watching her FLY up to her teacher and give her a big hug was the most heartwarming thing I've seen in a long time.

 

[Vogue]

My fiancee and I struggled with this issue. I never wanted children growing up, and she always thought she'd have them, but it was more of a thing that society expected of her rather than a question of whether or not she truly wanted them. When we got together, and knew we had to be on the same page about this, I spent a lot of time reading and in therapy trying to clarify whether or not I was truly committed to a childfree lifestyle. Eventually, my therapist just called me out: "It seems like you really want to want kids." For my fiancee's sake, in case she decided she needed kids, and I didn't want to lose her. Worst reason to have kids ever. Neither of us wanted that.

So I had to stop trying to persuade myself, and she had to look at her own priorities too. In the end, we both came to the realization that one can have a happy life with or without kids. Her parents put it really well: they were glad they had her, she brought so much joy to their lives. But if they hadn't had her, they'd have had other opportunities for life experiences that having kids took away, to say nothing of more income and free time.

Here's my feeling. Having children can ruin your life if you don't want them. I'm not saying it will, just that it can. Not having kids won't ruin your life (although it might come with lots of pain), and it certainly won't ruin a kid's life. There are other ways to find meaning in life and make a difference in the world.

I'm in my early 40s and she's in her late 30s. Maybe if we'd met 10 years ago things would have been different. But we didn't, and I firmly believed it happened when it was supposed to happen. Our life is freakin' awesome just the way it is, and we're determined to enjoy it together.

OP, whatever you decide, I wish you great joy of it.

 

[aljdewey]

Hello,

I had a question for those of you who chose not to have children.

Do you regret it? Are you happy with your decision? Do you wish you would have done anything differently?

Hubby and I are childless, and looking towards the future and would love to hear your thoughts.


Thanks!

I chose not to have children, and 20+ years post-decision, I do not regret it. I am happy with my decision and still feel it was the right decision for me.

When I was younger (early 20s), I fully expected to be a mother, and I felt as though I'd be missing something if I didn't get the chance. In my early 30s, having not met someone I wanted to spend my life with, I accepted that motherhood likely wasn't in my future.

When I met my now-husband 20+ years ago, we discussed children at length. For several reasons, we decided against having children.

What I would say to you are these things:

1. Regardless of what you decide, I believe key to avoiding regret is really thinking it through. Envision what each choice means for your future - short-term, mid-term, and long-term. Thoughtfully raising a human takes energy, patience, financial resources, and a willingness to sacrifice, among other things. Are you capable of providing that, and do you actually want to provide that. Both are important in your consideration.

1. Regardless of what you decide, you don't need to disclose, justify or explain the factors that went into your decision to anyone else. It is a personal choice, and it belongs to you and your partner alone. I've found it's better to say "we made the choice we felt was right for us" and leave it at that.

2. Regardless of what you decide, you will always wonder "what if". Don't mistake what-ifs for regrets. It is normal and natural to wonder what your life would have been like without children, OR it is normal and natural to wonder what your kid(s) may have looked like/personalities would be like if you'd had them. That isn't the same as regretting your decision, either way.

3. Regardless of what you decide, it is very likely that your decision (for or against) will sideline some of your friendships. and that can be extremely hurtful and disappointing. Though I don't at all regret my decision, I was surprised that folks I'd been quite fond of (even here) treated me differently. It can be jarring to realize that you are no longer welcome even as you revel in their children and hurt for their heartaches. On the flip side, some of my mom friends don't feel welcomed by their non-parent counterparts either. On this point, I really wish we could all just do better, but it is what it is.

Lastly....regardless of what you decide, you do not have to be alone at the end of your life. Having children doesn't guarantee you won't be alone at end of life, and not having children doesn't guarantee you'll be alone at end of life. If you put energy into cultivating and nurturing your relationships, you won't be alone. That can be with children, fellow parishioners, fellow citizens, lifelong friends, or whatever. People who want companionship and are willing to put the effort into relationships are seldom alone.

 

[theredspinel]

I chose not to have children, and 20+ years post-decision, I do not regret it. I am happy with my decision and still feel it was the right decision for me.

When I was younger (early 20s), I fully expected to be a mother, and I felt as though I'd be missing something if I didn't get the chance. In my early 30s, having not met someone I wanted to spend my life with, I accepted that motherhood likely wasn't in my future.

When I met my now-husband 20+ years ago, we discussed children at length. For several reasons, we decided against having children.

What I would say to you are these things:

1. Regardless of what you decide, I believe key to avoiding regret is really thinking it through. Envision what each choice means for your future - short-term, mid-term, and long-term. Thoughtfully raising a human takes energy, patience, financial resources, and a willingness to sacrifice, among other things. Are you capable of providing that, and do you actually want to provide that. Both are important in your consideration.

1. Regardless of what you decide, you don't need to disclose, justify or explain the factors that went into your decision to anyone else. It is a personal choice, and it belongs to you and your partner alone. I've found it's better to say "we made the choice we felt was right for us" and leave it at that.

2. Regardless of what you decide, you will always wonder "what if". Don't mistake what-ifs for regrets. It is normal and natural to wonder what your life would have been like without children, OR it is normal and natural to wonder what your kid(s) may have looked like/personalities would be like if you'd had them. That isn't the same as regretting your decision, either way.

3. Regardless of what you decide, it is very likely that your decision (for or against) will sideline some of your friendships. and that can be extremely hurtful and disappointing. Though I don't at all regret my decision, I was surprised that folks I'd been quite fond of (even here) treated me differently. It can be jarring to realize that you are no longer welcome even as you revel in their children and hurt for their heartaches. On the flip side, some of my mom friends don't feel welcomed by their non-parent counterparts either. On this point, I really wish we could all just do better, but it is what it is.

Lastly....regardless of what you decide, you do not have to be alone at the end of your life. Having children doesn't guarantee you won't be alone at end of life, and not having children doesn't guarantee you'll be alone at end of life. If you put energy into cultivating and nurturing your relationships, you won't be alone. That can be with children, fellow parishioners, fellow citizens, lifelong friends, or whatever. People who want companionship and are willing to put the effort into relationships are seldom alone.

I love this post, so balanced and well thought out. Especially loved point 2, ne’er were truer words said.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

The reason I called out The redspinal was because she was the only one who was refuting each post that gave a negative response to having children. Up to that point people just made statements of what they thought was relevant to the topic. If one wants to hear the other side, make a thread that says,"The joys of Motherhood." Since Telephone had already used the terms butt out on the first page within the first few posts, I reused it.
Hangout caters to an age demographic that is older, middle class and highly educated, and embodies values that the younger generation may not share . I personally want to hear and keep up with the younger generation by discussing their issues. Honestly I think pricescope has become stodgy. This topic deserved the focus it claimed it wanted without people turning it into an underhanded claim to the joys of motherhood. Redspinel says she said that either way was Ok with her, but it wasn't, because she refuted anything negative that was said.

I know people, like Kenny do not mind if people change the thread as it goes along. I don't start threads as my experience has been that the focus is always changed. So what is the purpose.? I think we owe it to the OP to keep on topic.
The person who was rude was the redspinel.

sprinkles, do not feel bad. This is what usually happens as a thread ages. People don't read the whole thread and often just jump in. I only apologize to Sprinkles. I didn't mean to upset you.

Annette

 

[swingtime]

"Regardless of what you decide, you will always wonder "what if". Don't mistake what-ifs for regrets. It is normal and natural to wonder what your life would have been like without children, OR it is normal and natural to wonder what your kid(s) may have looked like/personalities would be like if you'd had them. That isn't the same as regretting your decision, either way."

This is so beautifully put. There's a piece in today's NYT that ties in with this perspective:

Every Year He Texts Me: ‘I Love You’ (Published 2022)

Sometimes, what might have been never stops mattering.

www.nytimes.com

The writer uses the subjunctive text as an analogy for accepting roads not chosen.

 

[marymm]

Some people may wonder "what if," others may not.

Some people may regard his/her decision as a personal truism, a fact, a "what is."

Others may regard his/her decision as a choiceless result and/or a recurring subject of angst.

 

[Calliecake]

"Regardless of what you decide, you will always wonder "what if". Don't mistake what-ifs for regrets. It is normal and natural to wonder what your life would have been like without children, OR it is normal and natural to wonder what your kid(s) may have looked like/personalities would be like if you'd had them. That isn't the same as regretting your decision, either way."

THIS is so true!!!!

None of us ever knows how our life will turn out. Life throws beautiful and bad things at us. We also make our own happiness and move on from bad things. That is one of the greatest things about life.

No matter what you decide you will sometimes wonder about your decision. It’s human nature to wonder about paths not taken.

 

[telephone89]

if you truly can’t read an opposing opinion without feeling like it’s being forced upon you or personally attacked - you aren’t at peace with your own decision as much as you think you are.

I still believe not everyone should have kids, no one should judge that, no one should allow themselves to feel judged and get on the defensive (especially when on this thread that’s never happened once)!!

@theredspinel
You directly contradict yourself in your posts. You absolutely insulted and judged people who chose not to have children, and on a thread LITERALLY TITLED for people without children at that! How dare you try and say that others cant handle an "opposing opinion" while shitting on others life choices and trying to turn around and say that THOSE are not at peace with the decision? Maybe we are just tired of people like you trying to make yourself feel better by degrading other people. Absolutely disgusting behaviour from an adult. I will not be replying further to you or your nonsensical posts shitting on alternative life choices.

 

[theredspinel]

Hi,

The reason I called out The redspinal was because she was the only one who was refuting each post that gave a negative response to having children. Up to that point people just made statements of what they thought was relevant to the topic. If one wants to hear the other side, make a thread that says,"The joys of Motherhood." Annette

Highly educated right let’s do this the educated way.

This was the gist of my first post in this thread:

I had to stop reading and comment - the fact so many people base not wanting kids on sleeplessness and dirty diaper’s (ha) to me is like saying I don’t want a career because I have to wake up early and work hard.

Well yes… for an end goal. The goal wasn’t and never is the hard stuff you have to do (change a diaper vs wake up at 6am for work) it’s about achieving your end goal.

If we broke having a successful career down to it’s largely undesirable single components… not sure many people would want that either!

Now let’s count ALL the reasons people gave for not wanting kids in the first page… and see if as @smitcompton states I did in fact refute each post ie each “negative response to having children” her words.

List of reasons:
1. Huge risk to marriage
2. Hard time coping
3. Don’t see need to reproduce
4. Miserable baby years
5. Traumatising deliveries
6. Not meeting the right partner
7. Advanced age
8. Not wanting to give up freedom
9. Never liking kids
10. Just never wanted kids
11. Overpopulation
12. Kids turning out as failures

I think that’s enough…?
12 reasons, 12 that I just hasitily counted (so I probably missed some) and the one point I brought up was the focus of the trivial hard stuff like sleeplessness and dirty diapers when reality is there were 12 “negative” points to respond to.

What advanced education calls addressing 1 out of 12 points as “refuting each negative post” pray tell?

As for hearing the other side and making another thread, again, someone must be seeing things for where in my first posts before the viscous attack by smitcompton was I giving the “other side”?

 

[mom2dolls]

This thread has gone off the rails at this point. I think the negativity is probably enough.

 

[aljdewey]

This was the gist of my first post in this thread:

I had to stop reading and comment - the fact so many people base not wanting kids on sleeplessness and dirty diaper’s (ha) to me is like saying I don’t want a career because I have to wake up early and work hard.

Well yes… for an end goal. The goal wasn’t and never is the hard stuff you have to do (change a diaper vs wake up at 6am for work) it’s about achieving your end goal.

If we broke having a successful career down to it’s largely undesirable single components… not sure many people would want that either!


and the one point I brought up was the focus of the trivial hard stuff like sleeplessness and dirty diapers

Respectfully, the highlighted phrases are why I think you're getting a strong reaction.

Those things are only trivial to someone who knows his/her "end goal" is to be a parent. But not everyone sees parenthood as their end goal, and so those things are not merely trivial or means-to-an-end for them. Suggesting they should be trivial for everyone is to ignore that not everyone wants the same things.

The example of people not wanting a career because they have to wake up early and work hard kinda does the same thing - it presumes everyone should want a career and should be willing to endure the less savory elements required to have one. Honestly, there are many people who don't want traditional careers for those very reasons, and they chose employment that does not require it.

I think people are reading the underlying tone in your comments as suggesting that their reasons are trivial and not 'good enough' on which to base their decisions.

There is more than one path, more than one correct 'end goal', and those vary with the individuals involved.

Truthfully, I really wish more people did give consideration to the seemingly trivial things. If those things don't feel trivial, perhaps that's an indicator that parenthood may not be one's end goal. If someone looks at those things and can't say to themselves "but it will all be worth it in the end because I want this role", that's probably telling.

 

[737liz]

Ouf! Caught up and I think my post was the turning point where things got contentious. If I was the catalyst apologies to all. I went back and carefully read the whole novel from first post to last.

@theredspinel I hadn't realised that one of the 'not good enough' arguments I mentioned was actually one of your reasons for having kids. I am sorry if you felt personally attacked as I hadn't registered your comment when writing. I cited reasons that were not enough to sway me, but that obviously were reason enough for friends of mine, who are for the most part enjoying parenthood. But, (yep a big ole but) I think it is unkind to say that citing environmental concerns is a bandwagon argument. I would rather hope that people are becoming more aware of the unsustainability of a growing population coupled with exponential consumption. To get overpersonal and overshare: I was adopted. Aside from the fact that my uncle and a great aunt were adopted, making it somewhat a family 'thing', my parents were concerned for the environment. And global human wellbeing (cue halo of light and choir singing). In the 80s. But they wanted kids, so opted to apply to adopt (and ended up winning the lottery because I am a frickin amazing off the shelf product .) This eco argument isn't me grasping at reuseable straws. I have been on the solar powered ecofreak wagon my whole organic homemade granola bar life. It is a big part of why I have consciously and carefully decided not to have kids. Our children will become consumers, and will take plane rides, and will buy stuff. Of course the other layer is that I don't feel the primal need to be a mother, else I would have adopted. I sometimes find that my 30 something husband is the only child I have the capacity to handle . Anywho, I am good at rambling so will stop now.

I have enjoyed reading other women's posts about being child free. As it is still rare for women to be child free by choice, the occasion to discuss with likeminded people is equally rare. I'm grateful for the thread.

 

[Jambalaya]

I haven't read all the responses, but I'm approaching 50, have no children by choice, but have had a really hard time with this issue, so I wanted to give my perspective. Long-ish story below, but ultimately, I have a point! I promise! You can scroll down to the point, bolded below, if this is TLDR.

As far back as I can remember, I never wanted kids. However, I come from a deeply conservative family and a deeply conservative time and place. Religion, children, and no s*x before marriage. I always experienced my world as deeply claustrophobic and oppressive, so I guess I was never "one of them." I used to refer to getting an education and a decent job as a way of escaping what I called "playing the game." i.e. the game of pretending to be someone I wasn't until I could support myself. I remember saying to my sister, who was a few years older, after she graduated and got a good job "You're out of the game now."

All was well until I got married. The pressure that crashed down on me like a ton of bricks. You wouldn't believe it. It was a total shock. It was like I'd been put in a time machine and zinged back to the 18th century. I was 31 and I thought we'd long since moved on. My family had even started to be very encouraging of my career.

Getting married showed me how utterly sexist still society is and that they only thought it was OK for me to be independent as long as I wasn't married. (Once, I was dealing with a lawyer about a condo issue and my mother told me to leave that sort of thing to my husband!) The family cr*p went on for TEN YEARS. I set boundaries and no one gave a cr*p. It literally didn't stop until people died.

And now? I'm still so traumatized by the combo of those experiences and the additional stress of my parent friends going on and on and on and on about their own kids that I cannot bear to see any syrupy posts about children on Facebook. Some parent will post a glowing post about her son and how proud she is of him and how amazing he is, under a photo of some ordinary grumpy-looking teen, and they just sound unhinged to me. Why not just write it in his birthday card? Why not tell him straight? It's just showing off.

Parents worship their children but to the rest of us, they just look like average citizens. I am so resentful at the amount of my time that parent friends have wasted in the past few years going on about their kids. And when parents go on and on about family life to the childless/childfree, they are effectively telling you how amazing their lives are. (Not in this thread - I believe that the perspectives of those on both sides of the fence are valuable.)

Here is my point: (At last!) I am very happy I stuck to my guns throughout all the above and didn't have children. However, I absolutely feel that my life doesn't matter as much as parents' lives, that my life is smaller and less meaningful than theirs, and that it's much emptier than theirs. This doesn't mean that I want children. I am totally uninterested in spending time with children; it's not that I don't like them, it's that I find them completely, utterly boring. I find every aspect of children and child-rearing one of the most tedious things imaginable. I cannot understand how anyone would want to paint and do numbers with a small child rather than have an interesting adult conversation or read an interesting book. I have no time for children and never have had.

I can't figure out how much of my negative feelings about being childfree are genuine and how much is internalized angst from my experiences. I do feel very negative about not having had them, but it's hard to separate those feelings from the trauma I've experienced on this issue. I think probably, I don't have any regrets, but I've been very scarred by the way childfree women are treated. It's hard to be on the edges of society in this way, and you are very much on the edge if you have no children. 85% of women end up having them.

Ultimately, if you have doubts, you shouldn't do it. It's the kind of thing that's better to regret NOT doing than regret doing.

p.s. I'm absolutely dreading my friends becoming grandmothers, because I know they'll want to waste my time going on ad nauseam about their grandchildren, for years. I think I'm going to have to tell them that I just can't listen to it anymore, and explain how traumatized I feel about this issue.

pps. And to all the parents here, if you're the kind of parent to go on (and ON and ON) to your childless/childfree friends and colleagues and acquaintances about your children, for the love of god, just stop. Either they're childless, in which case your comments are very painful, or they're childfree, in which case you're boring them so much that they're fantasizing about ripping your arm off and beating you to death with it while they stand there with glazed-over eyes and a head like a nodding-dog toy, repeating "How sweet. Oh, how sweet. Wow, that's really sweet" ad nauseam. True story.

 

[theredspinel]

Respectfully, the highlighted phrases are why I think you're getting a strong reaction.

Those things are only trivial to someone who knows his/her "end goal" is to be a parent. But not everyone sees parenthood as their end goal, and so those things are not merely trivial or means-to-an-end for them. Suggesting they should be trivial for everyone is to ignore that not everyone wants the same things.

The example of people not wanting a career because they have to wake up early and work hard kinda does the same thing - it presumes everyone should want a career and should be willing to endure the less savory elements required to have one. Honestly, there are many people who don't want traditional careers for those very reasons, and they chose employment that does not require it.

I think people are reading the underlying tone in your comments as suggesting that their reasons are trivial and not 'good enough' on which to base their decisions.

There is more than one path, more than one correct 'end goal', and those vary with the individuals involved.

Truthfully, I really wish more people did give consideration to the seemingly trivial things. If those things don't feel trivial, perhaps that's an indicator that parenthood may not be one's end goal. If someone looks at those things and can't say to themselves "but it will all be worth it in the end because I want this role", that's probably telling.

Hi, yes, see this makes complete and utter sense. It’s responding to the points I made, giving valid thoughts that again yes, provoke thought (which is what a discussion is supposed to do). This is all I expected from a conversation like minded civil conversation not an attack and to be told my POV is the odd one out so “butt out”.

I fully agree with you, and it is the same career wise. We are expected to just wholeheartedly want/walk into a career and not think about the little stuff, it’s just expected (like having children is) that it’s something every “good” adult should do.

 

[theredspinel]

Ouf! Caught up and I think my post was the turning point where things got contentious. If I was the catalyst apologies to all. I went back and carefully read the whole novel from first post to last.

@theredspinel I hadn't realised that one of the 'not good enough' arguments I mentioned was actually one of your reasons for having kids. I am sorry if you felt personally attacked as I hadn't registered your comment when writing. I cited reasons that were not enough to sway me, but that obviously were reason enough for friends of mine, who are for the most part enjoying parenthood. But, (yep a big ole but) I think it is unkind to say that citing environmental concerns is a bandwagon argument. I would rather hope that people are becoming more aware of the unsustainability of a growing population coupled with exponential consumption. To get overpersonal and overshare: I was adopted. Aside from the fact that my uncle and a great aunt were adopted, making it somewhat a family 'thing', my parents were concerned for the environment. And global human wellbeing (cue halo of light and choir singing). In the 80s. But they wanted kids, so opted to apply to adopt (and ended up winning the lottery because I am a frickin amazing off the shelf product .) This eco argument isn't me grasping at reuseable straws. I have been on the solar powered ecofreak wagon my whole organic homemade granola bar life. It is a big part of why I have consciously and carefully decided not to have kids. Our children will become consumers, and will take plane rides, and will buy stuff. Of course the other layer is that I don't feel the primal need to be a mother, else I would have adopted. I sometimes find that my 30 something husband is the only child I have the capacity to handle . Anywho, I am good at rambling so will stop now.

I have enjoyed reading other women's posts about being child free. As it is still rare for women to be child free by choice, the occasion to discuss with likeminded people is equally rare. I'm grateful for the thread.

Oh no I didn’t notice your name at all don’t worry! There was only one main post that was incredibly rude, from smitcompton


“What post is the odd man out. You know those tests we have all had to take in life, I think IQ, where it asks which picture does not belong. which triangle is different?, that sort of test. Well, thats how red-spinals post strikes me. She needs to prove that having children is the way to go. My God, just the thing that the makes life harder for those that may wish to choose no children.
Talk about butting in. Really annoys me.”

From smitcompton.

Its literally only the above post I found incredibly rude, rude enough to address and call it out. Talk about trying to gatekeep a conversation and shut up any differing opinions.

 

[kenny]

... We are expected to just wholeheartedly want/walk into a career and not think about the little stuff, it’s just expected (like having children is) that it’s something every “good” adult should do.

Having children is something every "good" adult should do?

Is that what you meant to write?
Do you really think that?
Where did you learn that?

 

[theredspinel]

Having children is something every "good" adult should do?
Did you mis-write that, or do you really think that?

Seriously kenny, not going to read the whole quote and context?? It starts with “I fully agree with you…” so what did I fully agree with?

The post I quoted above saying: “But not everyone sees parenthood as their end goal, and so those things are not merely trivial or means-to-an-end for them. Suggesting they should be trivial for everyone is to ignore that not everyone wants the same things.”

So yes, having children AND having a career without stopping to think is that the right path or end goal for an individual is how mainstream society functions. We’re not supposed to stop and questions these pathways, just tread them because everyone does.

So that’s the full context and yes I did mean to say “good” people have kids and careers. That’s what society teaches us and that’s why this thread was started. That’s what every non parent is complaining about they wish would stop being the case. That’s why it says “good”. I like you!! Don’t wana argue with you

ETA: this was a great example of reading only to respond, reading only to argue. That’s happened a lot upthread.

We should listen/read, to comprehend. Not just respond.