For all of the diamond experts who have top give us endless opinions on lab certs

[Chrometsav]

Hi all,

I would first like to thank the diamond dealers who go through endless diamond lab certs giving a yey or ney to umpteen stones on a daily basis here including myself!!

I have read many a time that 'buying a cert' is not the way to go (when avoidable) although I realize it's the only way many people can do it today.

Just wondered if you can recall those little beauties (and maybe a few of the basic stats) that were way out of the ideal but just 'had it' in the flesh?

Many thanks

 

[Lula]

There seems to be a lot of interest on PS in finding the needle in the haystack -- the illusive GIA Good that outperforms the AGS0 super-ideal

The short answer to your question is, if there was such a "formula" for finding a GIA Good, for example, (or a stone graded by a less well regarded lab) that performs as well or better than a super-ideal cut stone, someone would have decoded it and marketed it by now.

I am not saying those stones don't exist, but I am saying that I believe statistically they are more rare, and you would need to look at a lot -- no doubt thousands -- of stones to train your eye to find them.

Depending on where you live -- e.g., NYC versus Smalltown, USA -- you may or may not have access to stores that carry well-cut stones. So if you embark on this endeavor in Smalltown, USA, for example, you may only be comparing mediocre stones (labeled "ideal" by the stores) to other mediocre stones (labeled "good" by the stores). So your comparison would only lead you to a stone that is the best performer out of a group of mediocre stones.

Nothing wrong with this; this is how people in small towns have been buying diamonds for decades. No reason to use the internet to increase your chances of getting a well-cut stone, if all you're trying to do is get a better looking stone than your neighbor's.

There is nothing stopping a store from creating their own rating system that may or may not comport to AGS0 or GIA EX standards. So what I'm saying is, you may simply fall victim to a store's marketing scheme and may not be comparing truly well cut stones to truly good or average cut stones. Again, depending on where you live, you may never be able to view a well-cut, top-of-the-line cut in real life.

So let's say you do live in the part of the country where there is more inventory, say you live near a dealer who sells HOF. Okay, now you have a basis for comparison. Go into the store. Have a look at several HOF (make sure you are looking at the HOF RB, not the HOF Dream -- there is a difference in appearance).

I'd be willing to be my firstborn son that the sales associate will be more than happy to show you a comparison between a HOF and several levels of GIA cut stones -- GIA EX, Good, etc. -- and will probably throw in some stones from other, less well regarded labs as well. So now you've got a comparison -- note, a biased sample, because you are only looking at a sample in one store selected by one sales associate -- but a comparison nonetheless.

Well, now I will bet my firstborn daughter that the HOF stone will blow the other stones out of the water, appearance-wise. Because, oops, another thing we forgot to talk about is that the store's lighting will play tricks on your eyes. HOF are beautifully cut stones, and they will perform well in all sorts of lighting, not just store lighting. The "comparison" stones will no doubt look good in the store lighting, but not quite as bright and firey as the HOF. But notice that the HOF stones are in separate cases, often in a separate part of the store. Maybe this is because the lighting surrounding the HOF stones is specially designed to show off the cut of the HOF stones, but will not flatter the other stones in the "comparison" group quite as much. Note: they won't look "bad"; they just won't look as good.

If you are clever, you will ask the sales associate to hold the stones away from the special lighting, as close to natural light as possible. If you are smart, you will do this comparison on the cloudiest, gloomiest day you can find. Near a window, away from lights, in dim natural light, you will be able to make a better comparison. Here is where you may be able to see if one of the less expensive "comparison" stones is as good a performer as the HOF.

But back to statistics, what are the chances that the sales associate will show you "comparison" stones that would rival the HOF? Pretty slim -- if he/she wants to keep his/her job!

And I'd be willing to bet my firstborn grandchild that if there is a GIA Good in the store that comes close to performing at the level of the HOF, one of the sales associates has already purchased it and given it to his fiancee.

These are some of the reasons it is so difficult for us novices to do true and honest comparisons in the real world.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/10/2009 8:32:26 AM
Author:Chrometsav
Hi all,

I would first like to thank the diamond dealers who go through endless diamond lab certs giving a yey or ney to umpteen stones on a daily basis here including myself!!

I have read many a time that 'buying a cert' is not the way to go (when avoidable) although I realize it's the only way many people can do it today.

Just wondered if you can recall those little beauties (and maybe a few of the basic stats) that were way out of the ideal but just 'had it' in the flesh?

Many thanks

Hi Chrome

I just wanted to clarify that most of the people offering advice on diamonds in Rocky Talk, myself included, are just consumers and are not in the diamond industry, experts or professionals in anyway.

Depending on what a person wants for cut quality there are other proportion configurations which can work well to produce a pretty stone which are outside of what we call ideal range, such as 60 60 types, as long as the critical angles are good and various others but it depends on what the particular buyer wants.

 

[Todd Gray]

The majority of people offering advice and answering questions here on Price Scope are not dealers, they are people just like yourself who started exploring the internet trying to learn more about diamonds, tripped across the forum, and developed a passion for diamonds... They contribute endless hours both answering questions posed by other consumers and researching to learn more about the diamonds they love. And they are not compensated beyond the appreciation they receive within the threads and the recognition they get. There are a few of us who are dealers, while it is true that we hope to increase sales and recognition of our products by being present on the forum, the reality is that most of us who do post do so because we too share a passion for the diamonds we sell and get pleasure from answering questions and providing the public with more insight than they might otherwise get. I had a wonderful two hour ++ conversation with one of the members of PS yesterday knowing from the start that he has no interest in purchasing a diamond online because he wants to be able to compare several diamonds side-by-side, we talked about proportions, the industry as a whole, how diamonds come to market, etc. because he is truly curious about the industry and diamonds. This is the type of insight that comes from a forum such as PS where things tend to be more transparent than a traditional brick and mortar environment.

Okay, so I''ve said this before and I''ll continue to say it... There are combinations of proportions beyond the realm of the zero ideal cut diamond which have the potential to deliver visual performance comparable to that offered by a zero ideal cut diamond, however the majority of diamonds not cut to ideal proportions do not offer visual performance comparable to a zero ideal cut diamond and thus people would be best served by simply buying the ideal cut diamond if visual performance is more important than price... Otherwise they will likely spend more time searching for the infamous ''needle in a haystack'' and will waste more time than they will save in terms of a time vs. money scenario.

If you insist on purchasing a diamond which is less than ''ideal'' then I suggest you focus first upon the proportions and look for diamonds which have proportions which are at least within the spectrum of the zero ideal cut proportions parameters, because guess what? It''s the proportions of the diamond which primarily dictate the amount of light and direction of the light which is returned because the crown angle and pavilion angle are the primary reflective surfaces within the diamond which direct light. So instead of spending a lot of time trying to figure out which non-ideal cut diamond might offer a decent amount of brilliance and dispersion, limit your search to those which at least have proportions equal to the ideal cut diamonds being offered.

Next you should know that there is a difference between the ''symmetry'' grade of a diamond as provided on a lab report and ''optical symmetry'' which people often incorreclty assume go hand-in-hand. The ''symmetry'' grade of a diamond is based upon the consistency of facet shape, alignment of the facets, and how the facet junctions (somtimes called facet points) connect or come together... and ''optical symmetry'' pertains to how those facets appear when viewed through the various scopes, such as an ASET, Ideal Scope or Gems Fantasy Scope - and those people who have spent any time on the forum will know that many diamonds graded as having AGS Ideal 0 or GIA Excellent symmetry do not always look exceptional when viewed through those scopes... But I have to say that even fewer diamonds graded as having Very Good or Good ''symmetry'' exhibit any sort of acceptable level of ''optical symmetry'' when viewed through those scopes - so if you seek exceptional ''optical symmetry'' in addition to exceptional ''visual performance'' once again, your time would be better spent considering the Ideal Cut options available rather than adding more hay to the hay stack in search of the infamous needle.

The reason why many of us (vendors) focus on selling ideal cut diamonds is because we share a passion for diamonds with exceptional visual performance and we realize that we can either spend our day considering diamonds which are likely to meet our expectations for visual performance (those which are ideal) or sifting through the thousands of non-ideal cut diamonds in hopes of finding the one in a thousand which might rival the visual performance and optical symmetry more readily found within the spectrum of ideal cut diamonds. Admittedly for me, it is a matter of Time vs. Money. I simply don''t have the time or the financial resources to bring diamond after diamond in for physical evaluation, opening up parcel paper after parcel paper up to look down upon the diamond and say "Nope... Nope... Nope... No, not this one either..."

But I''m a vendor, I don''t profit unless I sell diamonds... Consumers view diamonds from a different perspective which is often based upon the characteristics of the diamond as compared to price. No fault there, I certainly try to save money where I can when I purchase other consumer goods. So for those who want to try and save a little $$$ by searching beyond the scope of the ideal spectrum, pay attention to the parameters of the zero ideal cut proportions rating and make good use of the Cut Adviser available via the Tools link at the top of this page and see what might be available out there beyond the scope of true ''ideal''. Life is nothing, if not an adventure

 

[stone-cold11]

Also, depending on what you want to use the diamond for.

For pendant, earring stone, a shallow, but not too shallow, pavilion Good cut might work.