Follow Up Question to the Troy Davis Execution Post

[Mayk]

While I didn't follow the Troy Davis case I have been following the murders of the Petit Family in CT. This crime is so unspeakable. As a mother it makes my soul shudder to think of what that mother and her daugthers went through before these horrible deaths.

I know there were some VERY strong opponents to the Death Penalty in the post about they Troy Davis execution. The thread is still very much alive... and lit up with both sides...

So my question is.. when you have a confession of a crime so unspeakable...should the punishment fit the crime?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/22/judge-denies-mistrial-in-conn-home-invasion-trial/

I often find myself unsure in trials where details are questioned... in this case.. I find very little to hesitate over. I am glad I am not on the jury.... I feel just hearing the confession would end my ability to be balance... I would be ready to vote...

 

[Maisie]

I don't know if I could condemn someone to death. I suppose if it happened to one of my children or family I might be able to.

 

[AGBF]

I know there were some VERY strong opponents to the Death Penalty in the post about they Troy Davis execution.

So my question is.. when you have a confession of a crime so unspeakable...should the punishment fit the crime?

Hi, Mayk- This is a good question, and, in various ways, it has been raised many times in the Troy Davis thread. In that thread, however, it was always entwined with the issues of the fairness of capital punishment in general and whether Troy Davis was innocent or guilty of the crime of which he was accused. I think that starting a new thread to isolate the issue of whether capital punishment is ever justified, which I think is what you are really asking, is a good idea.

In my opinion, this is going to come down to each person's indivual beliefs. Some people will have Old Testament, "eye for an eye" beliefs and others will have, "It is not up to me to take a life" beliefs. I do not know how either set of beliefs can be proven right or wrong.

AGBF

 

[zoebartlett]

I know a family who went through something similar to the Petit's. When I heard about the Petit case, it made me feel sick to my stomach all over again. If there's absolutely no doubt about guilt and the crime is so heinous it's almost unspeakable, then I'm all for the death penalty.

 

[Lottie]

I remember reading Rusty Young's book about being caught smuggling cocaine in Columbia. In the prison he was sent to he states that Rapists, child murderers and paedophiles are brought into the prison by the guards, taken to the central courtyard and left there. The guards then all take a break and the prisoners take matters into their own hands. I wonder if that was true.

I am not for a minute saying that I agree with that, but when I read stories like the one above and think about the fear, pain and desperation they must have felt before their awful deaths I feel absolutely sure that the people who (if it has been proved with absolute certainty) caused them should be executed. Immediately. No last meals, no rights, no dignity.

 

[mrscushion]

In my opinion, this is going to come down to each person's individual beliefs. Some people will have Old Testament, "eye for an eye" beliefs and others will have, "It is not up to me to take a life" beliefs. I do not know how either set of beliefs can be proven right or wrong.

Right.

 

[TooPatient]

I remember reading Rusty Young's book about being caught smuggling cocaine in Columbia. In the prison he was sent to he states that Rapists, child murderers and paedophiles are brought into the prison by the guards, taken to the central courtyard and left there. The guards then all take a break and the prisoners take matters into their own hands. I wonder if that was true.

I am not for a minute saying that I agree with that, but when I read stories like the one above and think about the fear, pain and desperation they must have felt before their awful deaths I feel absolutely sure that the people who (if it has been proved with absolute certainty) caused them should be executed. Immediately. No last meals, no rights, no dignity.

This. If there is absolutely no doubt.

I don't think that a person who confesses (especially in a crime this brutal) should be given any more leniency than anyone else. All that would do would be to show criminals that all you have to do is admit you did something awful, say you're sorry, and get off with a light sentence.

 

[MissStepcut]

The problem with using a "confession" standard is that, if all you had to do to avoid the death penalty was maintain your innocence, no one would just admit it anymore (except for the suicidal). So that sort of policy shift probably wouldn't be very useful anymore after it was implemented.

 

[TooPatient]

The problem with using a "confession" standard is that, if all you had to do to avoid the death penalty was maintain your innocence, no one would just admit it anymore (except for the suicidal). So that sort of policy shift probably wouldn't be very useful anymore after it was implemented.

Good point.

There would have to be some sort of safeguards in place (like requirement of additional evidence or witnesses to confirm confession) to prevent the suicidal from "confessing" to crimes they didn't commit.

 

[MissStepcut]

The problem with using a "confession" standard is that, if all you had to do to avoid the death penalty was maintain your innocence, no one would just admit it anymore (except for the suicidal). So that sort of policy shift probably wouldn't be very useful anymore after it was implemented.

Good point.

There would have to be some sort of safeguards in place (like requirement of additional evidence or witnesses to confirm confession) to prevent the suicidal from "confessing" to crimes they didn't commit.

Well I meant more, people who now confess to police or plea guilty. That's a behavior we would rather encourage, for the sake of victims who get closure, and from a court cost perspective. Right now I suspect confessing reduces your chances of getting the chair, since it goes towards contrition, which people seem to like. If they only executed people who confess, there would be an even greater incentive to never tell.

 

[TooPatient]

The problem with using a "confession" standard is that, if all you had to do to avoid the death penalty was maintain your innocence, no one would just admit it anymore (except for the suicidal). So that sort of policy shift probably wouldn't be very useful anymore after it was implemented.

Good point.

There would have to be some sort of safeguards in place (like requirement of additional evidence or witnesses to confirm confession) to prevent the suicidal from "confessing" to crimes they didn't commit.

Well I meant more, people who now confess to police or plea guilty. That's a behavior we would rather encourage, for the sake of victims who get closure, and from a court cost perspective. Right now I suspect confessing reduces your chances of getting the chair, since it goes towards contrition, which people seem to like. If they only executed people who confess, there would be an even greater incentive to never tell.

Ah. Got it.

Yes, another good point. The families have already been through so much and if confessing was guaranteed death but fighting for months/years in court meant just prison then the families of victims would be forced to suffer.

FWIW, I know someone who plead guilty to assault and spent a few months in a work release program because the prosecuter wanted to avoid an attempted murder trial. This whole "confession" thing is already confusing and messed up.

 

[kittybean]

This whole "confession" thing is already confusing and messed up.

Yup. And, you have to take into account that there can be false confessions, too. This NYT article explains some of the basic issues with false confessions, but I can link to some legal scholarly articles (from conservative and liberal authors) that discuss false confessions in greater depth if anyone's interested. They're most common among the mentally ill--which makes sense, I suppose, but it's still kind of a sobering thought, especially since our country has decided it's cruel and unusual to execute people suffering from developmental disabilities and mental retardation.

 

[amc80]

This case is sickening. I think those guys should be raped and lit on fire, just like they did to their victims.

 

[AGBF]

This case is sickening. I think those guys should be raped and lit on fire, just like they did to their victims.

I wrote above:

"Some people will have Old Testament, 'eye for an eye' beliefs." I rest my case.

AGBF

 

[Imdanny]

I am against the death penalty, if that's the question we're addressing in this thread.

 

[beesha77]

This case is sickening. I think those guys should be raped and lit on fire, just like they did to their victims.

I'm with you. In heinous crimes like this and other brutal crimes, I wish they'd save the state some cash and bring back the firing range. Bullets are a whole lot cheaper.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

I remember reading Rusty Young's book about being caught smuggling cocaine in Columbia. In the prison he was sent to he states that Rapists, child murderers and paedophiles are brought into the prison by the guards, taken to the central courtyard and left there. The guards then all take a break and the prisoners take matters into their own hands. I wonder if that was true.

I am not for a minute saying that I agree with that, but when I read stories like the one above and think about the fear, pain and desperation they must have felt before their awful deaths I feel absolutely sure that the people who (if it has been proved with absolute certainty) caused them should be executed. Immediately. No last meals, no rights, no dignity.

OR--throw them in gen pop and see how long they survive.

I have absolute NO PITY or tolerance for those who rape and kill. I was rather "tickled" last week when I watching one of those ID shows about a child rapist who killed his very young victim, I believe her name was Kara. He was convicted and sentenced. When he arrived in prison his fellow inmates had a welcoming initiation for him--they tatooed "KARA'S REVENGE" across his forehead. In great big letters. I am sure his time behind bars is interesting, to put it mildly.

I know an Irishman who spent some time behind bars for entering the country illegaly. He was almost stunned at the violence shown to sex offenders.

Death is too good for these bastards.

 

[MissStepcut]

Our constitution promises that we will not resort to "cruel and unusual punishment." Allowing prisoners to harm one another in the ways alluded to in this thread qualifies in my opinion. Allowing that sort of prison culture to exist and flourish also interferes with inmate's ability to be rehabilitated.

 

[iheartscience]

This whole "confession" thing is already confusing and messed up.

Yup. And, you have to take into account that there can be false confessions, too. This NYT article explains some of the basic issues with false confessions, but I can link to some legal scholarly articles (from conservative and liberal authors) that discuss false confessions in greater depth if anyone's interested. They're most common among the mentally ill--which makes sense, I suppose, but it's still kind of a sobering thought, especially since our country has decided it's cruel and unusual to execute people suffering from developmental disabilities and mental retardation.

Yet executions of developmentally disabled prisoners still occur. Last year right around this time Teresa Lewis, a borderline mentally retarded woman, was executed in Virginia for conspiring to kill her husband. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/23/AR2010092306866.html Lewis reportedly had the mental capacity of a 13 year old and was very easily manipulated.

ETA to fix a grammatical mistake!

 

[iheartscience]

Our constitution promises that we will not resort to "cruel and unusual punishment." Allowing prisoners to harm one another in the ways alluded to in this thread qualifies in my opinion. Allowing that sort of prison culture to exist and flourish also interferes with inmate's ability to be rehabilitated.

Agreed.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

Our constitution promises that we will not resort to "cruel and unusual punishment." Allowing prisoners to harm one another in the ways alluded to in this thread qualifies in my opinion. Allowing that sort of prison culture to exist and flourish also interferes with inmate's ability to be rehabilitated.

Agreed.

Well, IMO, if you rape and kill a 4 year old, you are way BEYOND rehabilation and deserve what you get.

 

[MissStepcut]

Our constitution promises that we will not resort to "cruel and unusual punishment." Allowing prisoners to harm one another in the ways alluded to in this thread qualifies in my opinion. Allowing that sort of prison culture to exist and flourish also interferes with inmate's ability to be rehabilitated.

Agreed.

WQell, IMO, if you rape and kill a 4 year old, you are way BEYOND rehabilation and deserve what you get.

I'm not talking about the child rapist or violent murderer. I am talking about the other inmates who are implicitly being allowed or even encouraged to be violent and resort to vigilante justice.

 

[Imdanny]

Well, the way I look at it is- you can show me this or that horrible case, and how absolutely heinous these crimes are, and aren't they supposed to stir my emotions. But they don't. So someone did these, to me, unimaginable, nightmarish things to other people. And my response is supposed to be- torture them by putting them in solitary confinement, throw them into the general prison population and let them have a life of being raped everyday, or kill them. Except I missed the part where because someone else committed a heinous crime, I should want to support human sacrifice. No, thanks. I'll pass.