First time buyer question, Please help!

[ElectricEvoIX]

Ok so since i've been planning on popping the question for a few months now I have done A LOT of research on buying a diamond. Everything covered in the 4 C's and speaking to about 8 different jewlers including wholesalers here in NYC. Now I have it narrowed down to 2 stones. I have the specs for the one stone and will have the specs for the other shortly. I wanted opinions on in which one is a solid choice. I trust both sources i'd be buying the stone from just comes down to the best option. The price difference between the stones is very minimal so that won't sway my opinion in terms of just buying the bigger stone, just the best option will.

I have looked all over the net to find some sites that will list ideal cut proportions for what an ideal cut should be in terms of diameter and depth, etc. I have come across these two:
http://www.ajediam.com/Sizes-of-Diamonds.html
http://www.fireandicediamond.com/Calculating-Brilliant-Cut.html
http://www.diamondarticles.com/diamond-proportions.php (for table and depth %'s)

Stone #1:
Size: 2.25 Round Brilliant
Measurements: 8.59 - 8.66 x 5.01
Color: F
Clarity: SI2
Flor: med blue
Cut: Ideal

Table: 58.1%
Depth: 60%

The one imperfection on this stone is a white imperfection that I have seen under a loupe and isn't a major concern, there are no carbon imperfections whatsoever. Going off the above listed websites this stone is exactly right in line where an ideal cut diameter should be however i'm haveing trouble find a good source for what the depth should be. I have found another site that gave me the table and depth %'s for an ideal cut and they seem right in line for the ideal cut as well.

Stone #2:
Size: 2.50 Round Brilliant (will update once I speak to the jeweler shortly)
Measurements:
Color:
Clarity:
Flor:
Cut:

Table:
Depth:

Like the stone above the one imperfection on this stone is a white imperfection that I have seen under a loupe and isn't a major concern, there are no carbon imperfections whatsoever.

 

[LJL]

going to need crown and pavilion information in order to assess the cut of these stones.
Are these GIA or AGS stones? If so, you can post the certificate numbers and we can look up what we need for a primary assessment on those. If these are not GIA or AGS, there will be a lot more information regarding reliable diamond grading coming your way.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

For some reason I can't edit my first post, maybe a moderator could help me out with that. In any case here are the stats on the 2nd stone:

Stone #2:
Size: 2.50 Round Brilliant (will update once I speak to the jeweler shortly)
Measurements: 9.18-9.27 x 5.16
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Flor: none
Cut: ideal

Table: 64%
Depth: 56%

Like the stone above the one imperfection on this stone is a white imperfection that I have seen under a loupe and isn't a major concern, there are no carbon imperfections whatsoever

I would greatly appreciate any feedback from individuals on the boards, looking to make a decision within the next 24 hours. Thanks for any help!!

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

going to need crown and pavilion information in order to assess the cut of these stones.
Are these GIA or AGS stones? If so, you can post the certificate numbers and we can look up what we need for a primary assessment on those. If these are not GIA or AGS, there will be a lot more information regarding reliable diamond grading coming your way.

The stones are not GIA stones they are both EGL USA stones. I did not ask for the crown or pavilion info, I guess would it still be possible to assess some quality aspect given the information I do have? Thank you

 

[LJL]

Also, just from a quick look - the diameter on that 2.5 seems REALLY high. Should be something more around 8.75mm I think -
basing that on these stones: http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.416-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104054185001 and http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8901/ and other similar ideal cut stones from reputable dealers.
Others more qualified than I will be in shortly to tell you that we cant give you too much info within crown and pavilion and that EGL stones are not reliably graded so their color/clarity/cut grades don't mean too much.

Would you mind sharing your budget - we might be able to find you some better options

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

Also, just from a quick look - the diameter on that 2.5 seems REALLY high. Should be something more around 8.75mm I think -
basing that on these stones: http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.416-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104054185001 and http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8901/ and other similar ideal cut stones from reputable dealers.
Others more qualified than I will be in shortly to tell you that we cant give you too much info within crown and pavilion and that EGL stones are not reliably graded so their color/clarity/cut grades don't mean too much.

Would you mind sharing your budget - we might be able to find you some better options

budget is $19k. The thing is I looked at a 3 carat stone and the 2.50 and they were relatively almost the same so that intially told me either the 3 carat is more on point for the range it should be in and the 2.50 has a wider diameter than it should or the 2.5 is on point for it's range and the 3 is a deeper stone. But just really getting the measurements it seems the 2.50 seems like it does have a larger diameter for what is should thus making it somewhat shallow no?

 

[LJL]

The 3 carat probably had the proper diameter - honestly, I am really not too qualified as far as proportions go but the 2.5 definitely seems shallow since it is facing up way too big for its carat size.

How important is the size of the stone for you? You won't be able to get to 2.5 with the budget youve given but probably can get a great stone around 2-2.1 like these

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1360589.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1371025.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1440582.asp

Since you were looking at stones that were EGL H/SI1 - its GIA equivalent could be as low as J/I1 (or worse?)

I would inquire about the eyecleanliness of these stones and get idealscope images so some of the people on this board can look them over.

 

[minmin001]

you want to avoid looking at EGL stone but to look at GIA or AGS stone.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

The 3 carat probably had the proper diameter - honestly, I am really not too qualified as far as proportions go but the 2.5 definitely seems shallow since it is facing up way too big for its carat size.

How important is the size of the stone for you? You won't be able to get to 2.5 with the budget youve given but probably can get a great stone around 2-2.1 like these

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1360589.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1371025.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1440582.asp

Since you were looking at stones that were EGL H/SI1 - its GIA equivalent could be as low as J/I1 (or worse?)

I would inquire about the eyecleanliness of these stones and get idealscope images so some of the people on this board can look them over.

That's really my question how in line are these stones given the specs and their respective cert cut? If the 2.50 has a larger diameter than it's respective specs then it's might be too shallow. I know their are variance ranges that are acceptable but even if it's outside that variance range it would mean it's too shallow a stone maybe?

Both the stones I looked at had zero carbon imperfections and were very eye clean. I have seen stones where the carbon imperfections were dead center or spread out around the stone and could be see with the naked eye. These stones have one small white/clear imperfection that is not noticable to the naked eye. Granted my eye isn't trained like a person in the industry would be. The size is important but like I said I saw the 3 carat and it was an I color and you could tell the color was off not to mention the imperfection being eye visible so I wasn't willing to just get a bigger stone with those types of imperfections just for the sake of buying a bigger stone. Both the 2.25 and 2.50 shine very brightly. I managed to take a pic of the 2.50 and will upload that now. It's not the best pic but maybe it will help.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

2.50 carat stone in a setting

 

[LJL]

Its going to be tough for anyone on this board to recommend any EGL graded stone - apparently their measurements of depth, table, etc can often be off/shoddy. Without the crown and pavilion, its too tough for me to judge. However, the 2.5 seems WAY off in terms of diameter, probably had tons of leakage in the center due to being too shallow. The 2.25 even seems a bit big but it might be within an acceptable range.
Some of the absolute best information and tutorials can be found on goodoldgold.com - http://goodoldgold.com/ShapeTutorials/RoundIdealCutDiamonds/ this is the round diamonds page and there are many more pages on cut/proportions etc.

Without reliablely graded, full information on the measurements, there is no way to properly grade the cut of these diamonds. As pricescopers, we want to put all round stats into the HCA (https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca) which will give information about whether the proportions are complimentary. With this device, you reject all stones that score >2.0 -- However (I'm hoping some others will chime in to reinforce that) EGL graded stones are not the way to go. I know you are saying you are comfortable with the color and clarity you saw in person, but the possibility that the numbers are off and that you are not getting the best cut is really high. To be confident about your purchase, you should look only at AGS and GIA graded stones. Did you see any GIA Ex/Ex/EX or AGS000 to compare these stones to? Did you move them inside, outside, under various lights and shadows so you could see the leakage.

I'm too uncomfortable with EGL and the lack of information on these two stones to recommend either. Sorry. I hope there will be other posters who can give you more scientific/expert info on WHY these stones aren't right and why you should look for better.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

Its going to be tough for anyone on this board to recommend any EGL graded stone - apparently their measurements of depth, table, etc can often be off/shoddy. Without the crown and pavilion, its too tough for me to judge. However, the 2.5 seems WAY off in terms of diameter, probably had tons of leakage in the center due to being too shallow. The 2.25 even seems a bit big but it might be within an acceptable range.
Some of the absolute best information and tutorials can be found on goodoldgold.com - http://goodoldgold.com/ShapeTutorials/RoundIdealCutDiamonds/ this is the round diamonds page and there are many more pages on cut/proportions etc.

Without reliablely graded, full information on the measurements, there is no way to properly grade the cut of these diamonds. As pricescopers, we want to put all round stats into the HCA (https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca) which will give information about whether the proportions are complimentary. With this device, you reject all stones that score >2.0 -- However (I'm hoping some others will chime in to reinforce that) EGL graded stones are not the way to go. I know you are saying you are comfortable with the color and clarity you saw in person, but the possibility that the numbers are off and that you are not getting the best cut is really high. To be confident about your purchase, you should look only at AGS and GIA graded stones. Did you see any GIA Ex/Ex/EX or AGS000 to compare these stones to? Did you move them inside, outside, under various lights and shadows so you could see the leakage.

I'm too uncomfortable with EGL and the lack of information on these two stones to recommend either. Sorry. I hope there will be other posters who can give you more scientific/expert info on WHY these stones aren't right and why you should look for better.

hey no worries I greatly appreciate your feedback like I said I welcome any and all feedback. I tend to disagree with the GIA/EGL theory. Yes there can be wide differences but talking to reliable jewelers who aren't trying to scam me on this. I also have spoken to 3rd partied I have no relation with or connection to in order to compare what I had been given/told from those that I trust. I managed to get some GIA sourced information and lecture booklets and looking at some of information it says that a well proportioned stone should be around a 60% depth and anything <55% would be too shallow of a stone. Also regarding the crown and pavalion I did look at those qualities when I saw the stone first hand and asked why the crown didn't seem too high. Comparing what I saw to the GIA booklet pictures and according the GIA specs the stone wall fall under a Very Good cut with a moderately shallow crown or pavilion.

 

[marchesa6989]

does the vendor you're looking at have a return policy? if so, then what i would do with an EGL stone is once i buy it i'd take it straight to get appraised to see what the real grading is. it may be that you're lucky and have found a great buy, but we've had some horror stories on here where people have bought a G VS1 that has turned out to be J SI1 for example. so i think that's the only time that any of us would feel comfortable with it. and that way if it does turn out to be worse than u expected, u can always return it. that being said, always account for EGL grading to be softer. some people are more color sensitive than others and perhaps u might not be able to see the color, but ur gf might. some people on the forum can't really see color in J or above, but others can tell at G. when ur looking at the loose stones look at it from top down and in different lighting - take it out of their spotlighting and see what it looks like in natural light. also look at it from the side as this is where u see the most color.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

for that 2.50 my main concern is the depth percentage. According to GIA standards the depth percentage should range between 55-65% and when I recalculated the depth percentage on the 2.50 it comes out to 55.9% which is rounded to the neared .1% According to the GIA scale this put its in the G F P caterogry with a shallow crown and/or pavilion. Given it's only .9 higher than the lowest part of the range I think that puts it on the more shallow end and I don't think i'de be comfortable with that stone just because it's a bigger size. Any thoughts on this?

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

Any other feedback?

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

also curious if I were to chose the 2.5 stone which has a lower depth would putting it in a lower setting affect the appearance of the stone or no? Very curious to anyone's opinion on this, thanks again guys!

 

[Dancing Fire]

For some reason I can't edit my first post, maybe a moderator could help me out with that. In any case here are the stats on the 2nd stone:

Stone #2:
Size: 2.50 Round Brilliant (will update once I speak to the jeweler shortly)
Measurements: 9.18-9.27 x 5.16
Color: H
Clarity: SI1
Flor: none
Cut: ideal

Table: 64%
Depth: 56%

Like the stone above the one imperfection on this stone is a white imperfection that I have seen under a loupe and isn't a major concern, there are no carbon imperfections whatsoever

I would greatly appreciate any feedback from individuals on the boards, looking to make a decision within the next 24 hours. Thanks for any help!!

pass ..this is a pancake stone... a well cut 2.5ct should be closer to 8.80mm in diameter.