Feel like I''m getting screwed!

[strmrdr]

Is there a phone number for Ericka Kiefer, GG of European Creations on the appraisal?
If so call it and explain the situation and ask how much they would charge to help.

Second: demand a switch in jewelers because in my opinion this one is trying to lowball and suck up to the insurance company.
For the reason: Just say that you are not comfortable working with this one.

 

[Fly Girl]

I lost a ring two years ago, and I pre-shopped the State Farm approved jeweler list. My ring was insured for $18k, and one jeweler quoted me $12k to replace it, while another jeweler quoted me $20k. Guess which one I picked??? I shudder to think of the quality of ring I would have gotten had I gone with the $12k guy. Anyhow, I selected the $20k guy and got the full cash out from SF. I later found my ring, returned the check to State Farm, and guess which local jeweler now gets most of my business? And, since I found PS in the middle of all of this, I am sending him a lot of business.

In your case, I would check with other State Farm approved jewelers, and try to find one to your liking. You don''t have to give your business to this one.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/21/2008 7:48:21 PM
Author: ShariMichele

'One lady's 4mm half round 18k rose gold and diamond wedding ring. The ring contains three Old European Cut diamonds. The center diamond is .84 carat estimated weight, is VVS1 in clarity and J in color as graded in the mounting according to GIA standards by Ericka Kiefer, GG of European Creations an independant laboratory. The center stone is flanked on either side by a .50 carat Old European cut diamond. All the diamonds are set in platinum prongs. '

That appraisal isn’t helping your case.

Euros are indeed hard to find with such a narrow set of specs but when you do find them they are usually less expensive than otherwise comparable round brilliants so the proposal that it's a reasonable pricing structure based on RBC’s could be argued that it’s actually an upgrade that they are supplying because the exact match isn’t available. Even in RBC’s that’s sort of an unusual combination.

It’s correct that she is not required to replace with ‘certified’ stones but it is not correct that this leaves the door open to replace with anything they want. The appraisal is part of a contract and the contract says that they must be graded “according to GIA standards”. Remember, they agreed to this in advance. “GIA standards” are not just anything that any old GIA graduate says. They’re really pretty specific. Unfortunately, they do not include grading a VVS1 in the mounting. This puts you in a tricky position. They are graded to Ericka Kiefer’s standards, not to GIA’s and Ms. Kiefer’s qualifications as stated are pretty easy to match. You don’t seem to have any grading other than weight on either of the side diamonds. This means that a ‘reasonable’ assumption is going to be SI1-SI2/G-H. I think you’ll lose the fight that the only acceptable grader is the GIA lab but it probably is worthwhile to contact Ms. Kiefer and see what she has to say. Search the database for 0.80 – 0.89/VVS1/J/EGL-IGI and 0.50-0.52/SI1/H/EGL-IGI and pick prices somewhere near the middle of the range. There’s a decent range for your diamond prices.

There’s not much to go on for the pricing on the ring itself either. Do you have a picture or something? You’ve got no metal weights, no design, no dimensions, no nothing. An 18k rose gold shank with platinum prongs is all they’ve got to work with and that’s pretty slim. Matching those specs with a commercial ring is pretty easy so there’s no issue of custom design. They’re probably figuring the metal and labor components at $300-$600.

For the benefit of other readers who may be following this, the problem here started with your appraisal. Aside from the fact that you’ve probably been overpaying your premiums, there’s not enough information here to do the replacement in a sensible way. We don’t know really how your replacement jeweler came by their prices or even what value they came up with and there’s really no way for us to know if they’re being reasonable or not. It sounds like their customer relations skills are lacking, which is sufficient reason to drop them, but it’s not out of the question that their offer is entirely reasonable. What was the cash out offer?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[ShariMichele]

The cash out offer is $8,981. The ring "appraised" last year for $8,600, and State Farm said my max payout was $9,450, adjusted for inflation, so they are pretty close to my max payout. I chose the jeweler because I thought their prices (and quality) would be high, but didn''t count on them trying to sell me crappy diamonds without certs if I chose to upgrade the stones. What I do have going for me is that the side stones were not graded other than weight, but she was going to replace with VVS1, J color Round Brilliants. I''m fairly certain the side stones were not VVS1''s so that''s a bonus, but as I said earlier the replacement stones looked very yellow and would look bad if I upgraded the gold shank to platinum. This is where we got into the upgrade the color, downgrade the clarity discussion. (the jeweler also said they would hand make the exact ring/setting if I wanted)

Are you saying I should call the original appraiser and ask her if she would appraise the replacement diamonds?

If you say RBC are an upgrade, and I''m getting the added benefit of the VVS1 side stones adding to the payout, should I just cash out and find a dealer I like? What I really want is a 1 ct center stone, eye clean SI1, H color RBC or I color OEC., the two .50 ct side stones to match.

Thanks so much for your time everyone!!

 

[ShariMichele]

I just did a search on the database for replacement RBC diamonds, and while there is little to choose from in those parameters, the value added up to below 7K, so sounds like I should take the 9K payout and deal with a jeweler I trust.

 

[ShariMichele]

Ok, last question of the night. If for kicks I wanted to see what one of the other approved jewelers would payout, how do I go about this at this point without risking giving up the first payout amount of that turns out to be higher? Do I go to the other jeweler, tell them it''s an insurance replacement, tell them to be discreet because I''m working with another jeweler but don''t like them and possibly want to switch to them? I love having options on the table and leaving no stone unturned, pardon the pun.

Also, I asked State Farm this exact question from the get go because merely from the phone conversation and short visit with the first jeweler, I felt she was insincere and condescending and asked if I could switch if I wanted. SF said once the "replacement amount" is determined I can''t switch to another jeweler and that this jeweler was better than most and I shouldn''t have a problem. Shame on me for not doing my legwork first, but it''s hard to go shopping around for diamonds with a toddler. I hope this is making sense..I need to go to bed.

 

[denverappraiser]

Take the $9k. That’s a fair offer. State Farm is treating you right here, even if they were a bit snotty on the phone. Even the replacement jeweler is treating you right.

State Farm is now completely out of the loop. What the other ring looked like doesn’t matter any more and we’re not talking about a replacement any more. You’re just another customer with $9k in her purse looking to buy a new ring. It’s your money, you can buy whatever you want and you can shop wherever you want to get it. You are not limited by either State Farm’s 'approved' list or the restrictions imposed by that appraisal in any way. Buy what you want. Drop the clarity, raise the color, use lab-graded stones etc. Heck, you don’t even have to buy a ring at all if you don’t want, buy a car if you prefer. None of the above discussion matters any more except that you don’t seem to trust this jeweler very much. Maybe it was just a bad sales person and I would be inclined to cut the store at least a little bit of slack because they really did do you a favor on the VVS1/J thing but that’s all water under the bridge. If you don’t trust them, say thank you, take your money and go find someone who you feel deserves your business and who will treat you the way you want to be treated. There’s a LOT of competition in this business.

The same holds true for the appraiser and even the insurance on the new ring after you get one. It’s a whole new page. Personally I think this sort of thing goes a lot smoother with a more thorough appraisal but take your business to whoever you trust to do it right. I think State Farm treated you well and has earned your business but there’s no obligation whatsoever to use them again if you are uncomfortable with how this all went. They too have tons of competitors.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/22/2008 12:54:43 AM
Author: ShariMichele

Also, I asked State Farm this exact question from the get go because merely from the phone conversation and short visit with the first jeweler, I felt she was insincere and condescending and asked if I could switch if I wanted. SF said once the ''replacement amount'' is determined I can''t switch to another jeweler and that this jeweler was better than most and I shouldn''t have a problem. Shame on me for not doing my legwork first, but it''s hard to go shopping around for diamonds with a toddler. I hope this is making sense..I need to go to bed.

I think this deserves a comment for the benefit of other readers because it’s not entirely correct. As discussed above, the claims adjustment process involves several steps. After they determine that there is a valid claim, they must determine what was lost. This is done by parsing the appraisal that you submitted at the time of underwriting as evidence of what you were insuring. You can also add additional information in the form of receipts, photographs, witnesses or whatever else you have to make your case. They MUST resolve the question of what the heck is it that they are obligated to buy for you before they can establish a budget for it. This often is the real heart of the issue and this task is being jobbed out to the replacement jeweler. You are NOT required to accept their judgment on this and who you protest it to is the adjuster and then the supervisor of the adjuster. The last step in this chain is the state insurance commission but it really does rarely go that far. It’s not a done deal until YOU have agreed to it.

The second step is to establish a budget. Basically this is a matter of that first jeweler making a bid on what they want to charge to replace it. You can protest this too but it’s a bit more difficult. You need to be able to argue the position that no, they can’t provide you with an XYZ for $xxx and that the bid is evidence that the proposed replacement will not be of the quality agreed upon at the end of the above paragraph. This is a theoretical discussion of what they might be able to do if only you agreed to let them and, by it’s nature, it’s difficult to find evidence to build your case. They are arguing that they’re simply cheaper than their competition and indeed they might be. If you take the merchandise it’s pretty straightforward to use an independent appraiser in your corner but if your plan is to cash out then it can be difficult. A protest and a switch to a different jeweler on their list will probably be approved in the name of customer service but it isn’t required.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[ShariMichele]

Thanks Neil, you ROCK!

 

[Fly Girl]

When I was trying to get a replacement quote for my lost ring, the State Farm jewelers explained that SF purchases the diamonds at a huge discount, and that is why the quote to replace my ring could be so low. My rock was a GIA 1.5 ct F VS2, very good symmetry and good polish, but the thing is, my stone was hand selected and it looks a whole lot better than it should according to the paper. What I was afraid of was that the SF stones would meet the bare minimum of the GIA cert, with no obligation to get me such a pretty diamond again. I wasn''t looking forward to rejecting SF diamond after SF diamond....

Neil - Do you have any experience in looking at SF purchased diamonds, and how much of a discount do they really get?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/22/2008 10:50:41 PM
Author: Fly Girl
When I was trying to get a replacement quote for my lost ring, the State Farm jewelers explained that SF purchases the diamonds at a huge discount, and that is why the quote to replace my ring could be so low. My rock was a GIA 1.5 ct F VS2, very good symmetry and good polish, but the thing is, my stone was hand selected and it looks a whole lot better than it should according to the paper. What I was afraid of was that the SF stones would meet the bare minimum of the GIA cert, with no obligation to get me such a pretty diamond again. I wasn't looking forward to rejecting SF diamond after SF diamond....


Neil - Do you have any experience in looking at SF purchased diamonds, and how much of a discount do they really get?

That's one thing they try and pull is that you have to accept their quoted amount.
You don't, but you might have to prove why it is wrong.
The deal isn't done until you accept the offer no matter what the adjuster may tell you.

This is why it is absolutely vital for you to have documentation outlining anything special about your diamond and have that information as part of the record the policy is bound to.
Second best is having documentation that shows what you had for example an appraisal newer than the one the policy is bound with.
Can you document that it was hand selected and above the average?

Think of the insurance company as your enemy and fight that way.
The battle is fought with documentation and paperwork.
I have worked with maybe a 100 adjusters over the years and while they may be nice people there job is to get you to go away at the lowest cost and often don't have a clue about the object that was insured.
Plow them under with paperwork and they will cry uncle just to get it off their desk.
I hope your new diamond will be well documented so you don't run into this again.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/22/2008 7:37:10 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Take the $9k. That’s a fair offer. State Farm is treating you right here, even if they were a bit snotty on the phone. Even the replacement jeweler is treating you right.

I don't necessary agree with the second part but if the $9k is pretty close to the max possible payout, and that is a number that is written in stone under the contract, it is likely worth it just to cash out and get on with buying a new ring from the source of her choice.

 

[ShariMichele]

Date: 9/21/2008 9:50:49 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 9/21/2008 7:48:21 PM
Author: ShariMichele

''One lady''s 4mm half round 18k rose gold and diamond wedding ring. The ring contains three Old European Cut diamonds. The center diamond is .84 carat estimated weight, is VVS1 in clarity and J in color as graded in the mounting according to GIA standards by Ericka Kiefer, GG of European Creations an independant laboratory. The center stone is flanked on either side by a .50 carat Old European cut diamond. All the diamonds are set in platinum prongs. ''

That appraisal isn’t helping your case.

Euros are indeed hard to find with such a narrow set of specs but when you do find them they are usually less expensive than otherwise comparable round brilliants so the proposal that it''s a reasonable pricing structure based on RBC’s could be argued that it’s actually an upgrade that they are supplying because the exact match isn’t available. Even in RBC’s that’s sort of an unusual combination.

It’s correct that she is not required to replace with ‘certified’ stones but it is not correct that this leaves the door open to replace with anything they want. The appraisal is part of a contract and the contract says that they must be graded “according to GIA standards”. Remember, they agreed to this in advance. “GIA standards” are not just anything that any old GIA graduate says. They’re really pretty specific. Unfortunately, they do not include grading a VVS1 in the mounting. This puts you in a tricky position. They are graded to Ericka Kiefer’s standards, not to GIA’s and Ms. Kiefer’s qualifications as stated are pretty easy to match. You don’t seem to have any grading other than weight on either of the side diamonds. This means that a ‘reasonable’ assumption is going to be SI1-SI2/G-H. I think you’ll lose the fight that the only acceptable grader is the GIA lab but it probably is worthwhile to contact Ms. Kiefer and see what she has to say. Search the database for 0.80 – 0.89/VVS1/J/EGL-IGI and 0.50-0.52/SI1/H/EGL-IGI and pick prices somewhere near the middle of the range. There’s a decent range for your diamond prices.

There’s not much to go on for the pricing on the ring itself either. Do you have a picture or something? You’ve got no metal weights, no design, no dimensions, no nothing. An 18k rose gold shank with platinum prongs is all they’ve got to work with and that’s pretty slim. Matching those specs with a commercial ring is pretty easy so there’s no issue of custom design. They’re probably figuring the metal and labor components at $300-$600.

For the benefit of other readers who may be following this, the problem here started with your appraisal. Aside from the fact that you’ve probably been overpaying your premiums, there’s not enough information here to do the replacement in a sensible way. We don’t know really how your replacement jeweler came by their prices or even what value they came up with and there’s really no way for us to know if they’re being reasonable or not. It sounds like their customer relations skills are lacking, which is sufficient reason to drop them, but it’s not out of the question that their offer is entirely reasonable. What was the cash out offer?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I just talked to the jeweler and she was estimating my gold shank with platinum prongs to be $2500 to replace! Since I am wanting to change the gold shank to platinum, she said that would be another $1400, so $3900 for a platinum setting? Is she smoking crack? I have decided to cash out but am feeling lost as to which jeweler to buy the setting from. It seems all box store jewlers are overpriced, but I''m nervous about buying it online since I''m so picky about the look I want. I had Old European Cuts before and want something that''s a mix between antique and classic, without being frilly. Does anyone have any designer''s they''d recommend, jewlers in the Seattle area? This is such an imporant purchase it''s really been stressing me out the last few weeks to get it right. Thank you!

 

[vintagelover229]

Date: 9/24/2008 6:51:44 PM
Author: ShariMichele

Date: 9/21/2008 9:50:49 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 9/21/2008 7:48:21 PM
Author: ShariMichele

''One lady''s 4mm half round 18k rose gold and diamond wedding ring. The ring contains three Old European Cut diamonds. The center diamond is .84 carat estimated weight, is VVS1 in clarity and J in color as graded in the mounting according to GIA standards by Ericka Kiefer, GG of European Creations an independant laboratory. The center stone is flanked on either side by a .50 carat Old European cut diamond. All the diamonds are set in platinum prongs. ''

That appraisal isn’t helping your case.

Euros are indeed hard to find with such a narrow set of specs but when you do find them they are usually less expensive than otherwise comparable round brilliants so the proposal that it''s a reasonable pricing structure based on RBC’s could be argued that it’s actually an upgrade that they are supplying because the exact match isn’t available. Even in RBC’s that’s sort of an unusual combination.

It’s correct that she is not required to replace with ‘certified’ stones but it is not correct that this leaves the door open to replace with anything they want. The appraisal is part of a contract and the contract says that they must be graded “according to GIA standards”. Remember, they agreed to this in advance. “GIA standards” are not just anything that any old GIA graduate says. They’re really pretty specific. Unfortunately, they do not include grading a VVS1 in the mounting. This puts you in a tricky position. They are graded to Ericka Kiefer’s standards, not to GIA’s and Ms. Kiefer’s qualifications as stated are pretty easy to match. You don’t seem to have any grading other than weight on either of the side diamonds. This means that a ‘reasonable’ assumption is going to be SI1-SI2/G-H. I think you’ll lose the fight that the only acceptable grader is the GIA lab but it probably is worthwhile to contact Ms. Kiefer and see what she has to say. Search the database for 0.80 – 0.89/VVS1/J/EGL-IGI and 0.50-0.52/SI1/H/EGL-IGI and pick prices somewhere near the middle of the range. There’s a decent range for your diamond prices.

There’s not much to go on for the pricing on the ring itself either. Do you have a picture or something? You’ve got no metal weights, no design, no dimensions, no nothing. An 18k rose gold shank with platinum prongs is all they’ve got to work with and that’s pretty slim. Matching those specs with a commercial ring is pretty easy so there’s no issue of custom design. They’re probably figuring the metal and labor components at $300-$600.

For the benefit of other readers who may be following this, the problem here started with your appraisal. Aside from the fact that you’ve probably been overpaying your premiums, there’s not enough information here to do the replacement in a sensible way. We don’t know really how your replacement jeweler came by their prices or even what value they came up with and there’s really no way for us to know if they’re being reasonable or not. It sounds like their customer relations skills are lacking, which is sufficient reason to drop them, but it’s not out of the question that their offer is entirely reasonable. What was the cash out offer?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I just talked to the jeweler and she was estimating my gold shank with platinum prongs to be $2500 to replace! Since I am wanting to change the gold shank to platinum, she said that would be another $1400, so $3900 for a platinum setting? Is she smoking crack? I have decided to cash out but am feeling lost as to which jeweler to buy the setting from. It seems all box store jewlers are overpriced, but I''m nervous about buying it online since I''m so picky about the look I want. I had Old European Cuts before and want something that''s a mix between antique and classic, without being frilly. Does anyone have any designer''s they''d recommend, jewlers in the Seattle area? This is such an imporant purchase it''s really been stressing me out the last few weeks to get it right. Thank you!

Platinum is VERY expensive. A ring that I bought for 250.00 in WG that same ring in Platinum was 900.00. If you are okay w/ WG stick with it! I''m sorry you lost your ring! If you take the $$$ you can get a beautiful new diamond and get an antique setting and make a new heirloom ring though!

I know you don''t want to go online...but I REALLY recommend it. if your interested in a different cut that is antique and classic, I say do a pricescope search for cushion cuts. They have the chunky ones, etc.

If you love the cushion cuts, go with either Mark at ERD or Jon at GOG. I personally used Jonathan and he was very very good.

If you are leary buying online, Jon has videos, he''ll take pics, etc. It''s WAY better than going into a jewlery store because he wants you to be HAPPY with your diamond. He''s not going to try and sell you crap, no matter HOW LONG IT TAKES and he is honest!

He hand selects his cushions so no matter which one you get, it''s going to be gorgess. I say give it a shot and talk with a few vendors online...if you still feel uncomfortable...go to a jewler. Your going to get more bang for your buck if you do it online though!

Good luck!

 

[ShariMichele]

Thanks Stephanie! I have been convinced by all of you to go online for diamonds, since that is where I''ll get the most value, but I am still nervous about choosing a setting this way, but I will talk to some people and see where it takes me. I have always liked the look of cushion cuts but for some reason have never considered them. I guess I never had a reason to until now, so thanks for the recommendation. I love that you don''t see them everywhere.