Feel like I''m getting screwed!

[ShariMichele]

Hello diamond lovers,
I would love your opinions on the following issue I''m dealing with. I lost my family heirloom wedding ring.

I went to look at some replacement stones today through my insurance company and feel like they must think I''m an idiot. I''ve done some modest reading online to educate myself, but since this forum is so smart about all things diamonds I would love to hear what you think. The diamonds I had were VVS1, J color. I am looking at those (they looked way more yellow than I remember), as well as a possible downgrade in clarity in order to get my ring changed from white gold to Platinum for the same price. I looked at a 1 ct. SI1, H color. I could see a huge flaw that looked like a big scratch on the table the second I saw it, without the loop. The jeweler said I had really good eyes and "struggled" to see it in her loop. One of the others had a black spot right in the top center so it reflected multiple times on the bottom when seen with a loop. She also said they were supposed to have certs but they didn''t send them with the diamonds, even though she had requested a faxed copy. Questions are: should I be able to see any flaws with SI1? Shouldn''t all diamonds worth paying for have a cert? Should I cash out the money and buy the diamonds online instead? If so, what company would you recommend? Thanks so much!!

 

[LD]

If you''re seeing a huge inclusion in an SI1 then I wonder who has certified the diamond?

I don''t know if you''ve got to use a certain company because it''s an insurance claim but if not, there are a wealth of threads on here that recommend different sellers so it''s well worth searching for a while.

Good luck and I hope you find something.

 

[Maisie]

I would definitely buy online if you are able to. There are some fabulous companies.. such as Whiteflash, Good Old Gold, Winfields..... There are more but I have heard the most good things about those three and have bought a few times from Whiteflash.

 

[Poppy77]

I''d cash it out if you have that option; lots of us spend a decent amount of time looking for an insurance co that will give a cash out (rather than replacement) for this exact reason that you''re dealing with...

If it''s an antique diamond you''re trying to replace, Single Stone, Old World Diamonds and Jewels by Erica Grace are all great. (They all have websites, just add a .com to any of those names to find it, I''m too lazy tonight to make links

 

[Kaleigh]

I''d cash out if you can. You''ll be better off for it. Buying from an online vendor, is your best bet, IMHO. Is that a possibility? Not sure what insurance you have.

I am so sorry your lost your ring.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 9/20/2008 9:19:09 PM
Author: Kaleigh
I''d cash out if you can. You''ll be better off for it. Buying from an online vendor, is your best bet, IMHO. Is that a possibility? Not sure what insurance you have.

I am so sorry your lost your ring.

Ditto, I am so sorry about your ring.

 

[MMT]

Who is the insurance company and are they offering a cash settlement. Do you have to use their jeweler?

 

[MMT]

I am so sorry you lost your ring.

 

[ShariMichele]

It''s State Farm insurance, and yes, they offer a cash settlement, but here''s my concern. They are making me use one of their approved jewelers, and making them use one of their approve suppliers, since they will give them the diamonds at a discount. If I want to cash out, I only get the "discounted" amount of cash. Therefore I assumed I couldn''t get anything decent if I cashed out since the amount will be less. But with the crap they are trying to pawn off on me I''m thinking maybe I can find something I like online if their prices are competitive. Thank you for all the advice and condolences.

 

[ShariMichele]

Date: 9/20/2008 9:15:13 PM
Author: Poppy77
I''d cash it out if you have that option; lots of us spend a decent amount of time looking for an insurance co that will give a cash out (rather than replacement) for this exact reason that you''re dealing with...

If it''s an antique diamond you''re trying to replace, Single Stone, Old World Diamonds and Jewels by Erica Grace are all great. (They all have websites, just add a .com to any of those names to find it, I''m too lazy tonight to make links

It sounds like you know a lot about vintage diamonds. I just went to SingleStone.com and read some interesting things. Mine was an Old European cut, VVS1, J color. It says that these stone sell for a premium, and look much better than a modern stone with the same specs. (Remember I said my J color stone didn''t look as yellow?) The jeweler told me she couldn''t find the Old European Cut and is replacing with Round Brilliant. Since she is supposedly forced to use State Farms''s supplier, she is quoting me replacement cost of Round Brilliant, which doens''t seem fair. Any advice?

 

[jewelerman]

Date: 9/21/2008 12:23:27 AM
Author: ShariMichele
It''s State Farm insurance, and yes, they offer a cash settlement, but here''s my concern. They are making me use one of their approved jewelers, and making them use one of their approve suppliers, since they will give them the diamonds at a discount. If I want to cash out, I only get the ''discounted'' amount of cash. Therefore I assumed I couldn''t get anything decent if I cashed out since the amount will be less. But with the crap they are trying to pawn off on me I''m thinking maybe I can find something I like online if their prices are competitive. Thank you for all the advice and condolences.

Approved jewelers...and discounted cash amount...what happened to the days when you payed them every month and if you made a claim they paid you the dollar amount that you paid on....if they are going to discount the cash then ask them to pay back the amount they are not covering.

 

[glitterata]

If your stone was a J VVSI Old European Cut and you have documentation to prove it, they have to replace it with a J VVS1 OEC. They can''t just give you a modern brilliant instead, without your agreeing to it. If they''re trying to use a jeweler who can''t get you a fair and honest replacement, they need to find a jeweler who can. Talk to your insurance agent about it. If you don''t get anywhere with them, consider getting one of the appraisers who post on this board involved, or a lawyer.

In fact, I would be getting an appraiser involved anyway, to make sure whatever stone they try to give you really IS a VVSI J or whatever they''re claiming it is.

I would never settle for a modern brilliant to replace a good OEC. Never! They''re just not the same thing. And you don''t have to, either. Stand firm!

 

[glitterata]

PS: Forgot to say, I''m SOOOO sorry you lost your ring!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 12:23:27 AM
Author: ShariMichele
It''s State Farm insurance, and yes, they offer a cash settlement, but here''s my concern. They are making me use one of their approved jewelers, and making them use one of their approve suppliers, since they will give them the diamonds at a discount. If I want to cash out, I only get the ''discounted'' amount of cash. Therefore I assumed I couldn''t get anything decent if I cashed out since the amount will be less. But with the crap they are trying to pawn off on me I''m thinking maybe I can find something I like online if their prices are competitive. Thank you for all the advice and condolences.

There are many vendors on line who are also insurance replacement specialists for State Farm. If you are not happy with their local people, talk to your adjuster and tell mim/her so and request that they put you in touch with someone who actually knows something about diamonds and who will not try to scam you without showing you the papers that are supposed to come with a diamond that has been papered by one of the labs.

Also contact your state insurance fund, many times an adjuster will tell you that you MUST use their replacement specialist, but in Idaho for example, you have the right to use the vendor of your choice in spite of what the adjuster may try to tell you. You will need to know the laws about this in your state to get what you deserve.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 12:46:16 AM
Author: ShariMichele

Date: 9/20/2008 9:15:13 PM
Author: Poppy77
I''d cash it out if you have that option; lots of us spend a decent amount of time looking for an insurance co that will give a cash out (rather than replacement) for this exact reason that you''re dealing with...

If it''s an antique diamond you''re trying to replace, Single Stone, Old World Diamonds and Jewels by Erica Grace are all great. (They all have websites, just add a .com to any of those names to find it, I''m too lazy tonight to make links

It sounds like you know a lot about vintage diamonds. I just went to SingleStone.com and read some interesting things. Mine was an Old European cut, VVS1, J color. It says that these stone sell for a premium, and look much better than a modern stone with the same specs. (Remember I said my J color stone didn''t look as yellow?) The jeweler told me she couldn''t find the Old European Cut and is replacing with Round Brilliant. Since she is supposedly forced to use State Farms''s supplier, she is quoting me replacement cost of Round Brilliant, which doens''t seem fair. Any advice?

There are simply too many good vendors who know where to find these diamonds. State Farm does want you to use their diamond suppliers when you can, but if their suppliers do not have what you lost then you have the right to demand that they allow you to find someone who can replace what you lost "IN KIND". Do NOT be pushed into accepting a substitute for what you paid a premium on.

Wink - Sorry if I seem a little testy about this, it is one of my pet peaves, plus I am batching it this weekend so I am not eating correctly and it makes me cranky. My wife better live long as Paul says, I would make a lousy widower!

Sigh, Must go do dishes now, not good to great her with a messy kitchen, that would make HER cranky...

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 12:47:07 AM
Author: jewelerman

Date: 9/21/2008 12:23:27 AM
Author: ShariMichele
It''s State Farm insurance, and yes, they offer a cash settlement, but here''s my concern. They are making me use one of their approved jewelers, and making them use one of their approve suppliers, since they will give them the diamonds at a discount. If I want to cash out, I only get the ''discounted'' amount of cash. Therefore I assumed I couldn''t get anything decent if I cashed out since the amount will be less. But with the crap they are trying to pawn off on me I''m thinking maybe I can find something I like online if their prices are competitive. Thank you for all the advice and condolences.

Approved jewelers...and discounted cash amount...what happened to the days when you payed them every month and if you made a claim they paid you the dollar amount that you paid on....if they are going to discount the cash then ask them to pay back the amount they are not covering.

Those days never existed unless you had a stated value policy. (At least not for the twenty plus years I have been doing insurance replacements.) You need to learn more about the insurance business before making such statements. The premiums are based on their anticipated costs. That is why stated value policies cost more.

Wink

 

[goobear78]

I also went though this with State Farm. My wedding band and ER were stolen. The SF jeweler wanted to replace my EC J VVS2 with a VS2. As we all know, this is not the same thing, but they couldn't come close to what I had and tried to sell me a radiant, which was lovely, but not what I wanted. Ultimately, the jeweler said it would cost them about $50 above my insured amount to replace my 2 rings, so when I opted to cash out; I got the full amount of my insured coverage. I was lucky, but I also didn't take their first estimate. At first they said it would cost about 1/2 of my premium, which would have been LESS than I paid for just my ER center stone 3 years ago. I made sure to tell them that and let them know that I wouldn’t accept that. They came back, said the first estimate was a mistake and gave me the new estimate for slightly above my coverage.

My advice would be to be firm, ask SF to go to another jeweler since this one does not specialize in your cut and if all else fails, take the cash payout so you can get what you really want. Anther thing I did was get the full list of SF approved vendors in my area; I researched each one, looked them up online and visited a few. I chose the store with the highest quality thinking it would cost more than some of the other jewelers available through SF. I assumed, based on my research that they would have better quality and a premium thus getting either a better chance at a beautiful ring or at least getting my full premium back, which I did.

ETA: I am VERY sorry you lost your ring. I know how awful it is. Good luck on your search.

 

[Rhea]

Oh no! Sorry about your ring. And that you''re having to deal with insurance. As an older stone lover, if you like the old european cut, stay with it. There are plenty of vendors out there who do have these types of stones.

 

[ShariMichele]

Thank you all so much for the advice. When you have never gone through this before it''s hard to know when you have a leg to stand on, but thanks to your advice, I will be more firm and see where it gets me. I woke up in the middle of the night so mad about all of this.

This is supposed to be a prestigious, reputable company and they are treating me like an idiot. She was making me look at the diamonds through a dirty loop that was hard to keep open, attached to all her keys, dirty Micky Mouse rubber keychain etc. This is how I''m suppposed to make my decision on thousands of dollars? What a joke!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I''d take whatever cash I could get and go to a trusted online source. There are many testmonials on this site for modern cut and old cut stones. You will not get any kind of great deal doing it their way. Cut your losses and then be free to find a great diamond and setting! I would try to get them to raise the discounted amount, but I wouldn''t waste another minute with their jeweler considering your recent experience.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 3:46:45 PM
Author: ShariMichele
Thank you all so much for the advice. When you have never gone through this before it''s hard to know when you have a leg to stand on, but thanks to your advice, I will be more firm and see where it gets me. I woke up in the middle of the night so mad about all of this.

This is supposed to be a prestigious, reputable company and they are treating me like an idiot. She was making me look at the diamonds through a dirty loop that was hard to keep open, attached to all her keys, dirty Micky Mouse rubber keychain etc. This is how I''m suppposed to make my decision on thousands of dollars? What a joke!

You definitely need to talk with your adjuster and explain this to him/her. State Farm is a reputable company and they will not like the way that they are being represented by this person.

And no, your jeweler might want you to make a decision like that, but you definately should NOT.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 3:53:39 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I''d take whatever cash I could get and go to a trusted online source. There are many testmonials on this site for modern cut and old cut stones. You will not get any kind of great deal doing it their way. Cut your losses and then be free to find a great diamond and setting! I would try to get them to raise the discounted amount, but I wouldn''t waste another minute with their jeweler considering your recent experience.

Please do not take the cash and run. You must get them to either find for you, or allow you to find, a vendor who can source the diamond that you have insured. If you take the cash and run and the cash is not enough, well, too bad, you took the cash.

Make them live up to their contract, it may take a little longer, but you will be better protected.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/21/2008 5:29:08 PM
Author: Wink

You definitely need to talk with your adjuster and explain this to him/her. State Farm is a reputable company and they will not like the way that they are being represented by this person.

Wink

Maybe they will care but in my area they wont.
State Farm in my area has some of the worst adjusters anyone has every had the displeasure of dealing with.

ShariMichele,
Keep hammering away at them until you get a fair settlement.
There is never a final offer until you sign that you accept it.

Every weekday for 2 weeks they called with a new offer until they got to a fair one and I took it and then dropped them like a hot potato a few years back.
I know someone dealing with them right now and they aren''t any better.

 

[denverappraiser]

Cash out is a fair deal since you can get a ‘discounted’ deal just as easily as they can. The face value of appraisals is often crazy and it’s fair that they will pay you in cash only what they can reasonably expect to need to pay to replace the piece. That said, there are some caveats here.

#1 Who called it VVS1/J? The underwriter agreed to this when they bound the policy but the reliability of the grader is important. If it’s an unknown, the default assumption is that they are reliable (since both you and the company accepted this grading at the time the policy was bound). If you can’t replace with a stone graded by that same source, you and they should agree to use one that’s equally reliable. That means GIA or AGS. Don’t take non-certed, generically certed, 3rd tier labs, etc. They owe you a VVS1/J and they should provide sufficient funding to get one. It’s NOT going to have black spots in it or scratches on the table, even under magnification by the way.

#2 As Wink points out, there are lots of people on the State Farm list who would love to earn your business. If the first one they send you to isn’t to your liking, don’t feel shy about moving on to someone else.

#3 Do you know anything at all about the cutting? Round brilliant? Old Miner? Is it something else entirely? What about the size? This should be in the description portion of your appraisal.

First, determine exactly what they are agreeing to buy and set your budget. By this I mean that the company has estimated their cost to replace your piece, presumably a VVS1/J of an appropriate size and in an appropriate mounting from an approved vendor and presumably it’s less than the limit of the policy. Fine. How much is it? Equally importantly, can the vendor actually deliver? It sure sounds like they’re offering you completely different things. I have to say, a 1ct+ VVS1/J/GIA/Euro is not an easy call. If it’s a round brilliant, what’s the cut grade? If it’s not specified it is presumed to be standard commercial grade, which is VG or better. Look it up in the database here, it isn’t that hard to find comparable offers and it’s easy enough to know what they cost at ‘discount’ outlets.

Do the same thing with your mounting. This will depend heavily on the details in the appraisal that you submitted and whatever other documents you can provide about what the lost ring was like. Do you have a copy? Will they have to custom make something or can they order it directly from the ORIGINAL manufacturer? How much will that cost? As with the above, can the chosen jeweler actually deliver or are you getting a snowjob?

Now you’ve nailed down the budget for the replacement you can decide if you want to tweak it and buy something else. As I said up top, it’s fair that SF shouldn’t be responsible for your upgrade so now you’ve got to have a conversation with the jeweler about what changes you want to make. Make it bigger, smaller, whiter, rounder, whatever it is that trips your fancy. If what you want turns out to be cheaper, take the cash, buy the new thing and keep the change. If what you want costs more, pony up some more money and get what makes your toes curl up. If what you want is ‘like kind and quality’, pay your deductible and the rest is up to them.

State Farm is a good company and they try to do right for both their stockholders and their insureds. This means that the adjuster is going through this same process. He/she is trying to figure out how they can make you whole again at the lowest cost to them. Their vendor doesn’t have the same objectives. They’re working on a budget and if they can get you to accept something less than you had, they get more money for their part because their costs to deliver go down and, within reason, they still get to charge the full ticket. The adjuster is your friend but their #1 objective is to get your claim off of their desk so they can move on to the next one. The jeweler might not be such an ally. Consider carefully if you would otherwise choose to work with this company. If not, don’t be shy, head for the door. It’s a big list.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Let me explain the reason I''d take the cash. I''d consider it an opportunity to get what I really want, not just attempt to replace what I had. Maybe I don''t want another J VVS1. Maybe I want a G VS2 in a larger size stone. Maybe I want a totally different setting. Of course, that is why I went with a cash-out policy!

But I understand that she might do as well replacing the stone for what she had before if that''s what she wants (and can get independent verification of the quality).

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 6:07:42 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Let me explain the reason I''d take the cash. I''d consider it an opportunity to get what I really want, not just attempt to replace what I had. Maybe I don''t want another J VVS1. Maybe I want a G VS2 in a larger size stone. Maybe I want a totally different setting. Of course, that is why I went with a cash-out policy!

But I understand that she might do as well replacing the stone for what she had before if that''s what she wants (and can get independent verification of the quality).

It might be okay to take the cash, but ONLY when you know what the cash should be. At this point she does not have a clue, since the company does not yet either. They are relying on a poor replacement specialist from the sounds of it.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/21/2008 6:07:42 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Let me explain the reason I'd take the cash. I'd consider it an opportunity to get what I really want, not just attempt to replace what I had. Maybe I don't want another J VVS1. Maybe I want a G VS2 in a larger size stone. Maybe I want a totally different setting. Of course, that is why I went with a cash-out policy!


But I understand that she might do as well replacing the stone for what she had before if that's what she wants (and can get independent verification of the quality).

The tricky part is deciding the amount of cash to agree on. Theoretically it’s the cost to replace the lost item with another of like kind and quality but, as every PS regular knows, VVS1/J can mean wildly different things to different people, especially those who have a vested interest in believing that peculiar things. If the replacement jeweler bid the settlement based on replacing using a stone with a BS grade, then she is not being made whole. Unfortunately, this happens quite a bit and most people have no idea that they’re being snowed. They got bamboozled once when the ‘appraiser’ set the limit to the policy and it’s correct that this may not be a reasonable expectation but that’s no reason to accept a lowball offer at claim time. Maybe you don't want another VVS1/J but the funding, and the cash offer, should be based on what it would cost to buy one. That's what they agreed to when they bound the policy and fair is fair.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/21/2008 6:11:45 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/21/2008 6:07:42 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006

Let me explain the reason I''d take the cash. I''d consider it an opportunity to get what I really want, not just attempt to replace what I had. Maybe I don''t want another J VVS1. Maybe I want a G VS2 in a larger size stone. Maybe I want a totally different setting. Of course, that is why I went with a cash-out policy!


But I understand that she might do as well replacing the stone for what she had before if that''s what she wants (and can get independent verification of the quality).

It might be okay to take the cash, but ONLY when you know what the cash should be. At this point she does not have a clue, since the company does not yet either. They are relying on a poor replacement specialist from the sounds of it.


Wink

Yeah. What he said ^^^^^^^.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/21/2008 6:24:25 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 9/21/2008 6:11:45 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/21/2008 6:07:42 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006

Let me explain the reason I''d take the cash. I''d consider it an opportunity to get what I really want, not just attempt to replace what I had. Maybe I don''t want another J VVS1. Maybe I want a G VS2 in a larger size stone. Maybe I want a totally different setting. Of course, that is why I went with a cash-out policy!


But I understand that she might do as well replacing the stone for what she had before if that''s what she wants (and can get independent verification of the quality).

It might be okay to take the cash, but ONLY when you know what the cash should be. At this point she does not have a clue, since the company does not yet either. They are relying on a poor replacement specialist from the sounds of it.


Wink

Yeah. What he said ^^^^^^^.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

LOL! Looks like we must have started typing at the same time. You just took the time to say it completely, I just dashed mine out. For what it is worth ShariMichele, when you have Neil telling you things then you are getting the straight poop, the whole poop and nothing but the poop. This guy does not mess around and he knows his poop!

Personally, I would say the guy working with you currently has stepped into the poop and Neil would probably LOVE to get a chance to straighten him out!

Wink

 

[ShariMichele]

You guys are so awesome! I''m so glad I stubbled on this site! I am going to try my best to respond with my toddler running around me. I have an appraisal of the entire ring from the company I bought a few of the diamonds from. It states:

"One lady''s 4mm half round 18k rose gold and diamond wedding ring. The ring contains three Old European Cut diamonds. The center diamond is .84 carat estimated weight, is VVS1 in clarity and J in color as graded in the mounting according to GIA standards by Ericka Kiefer, GG of European Creations an independant laboratory. The center stone is flanked on either side by a .50 carat Old European cut diamond. All the diamonds are set in platinum prongs. "

When I asked to see the certs of the replacement, the jeweler alluded to the fact that my diamonds didn''t have certs so she didn''t have to replace them with diamonds that had certs since it really adds cost to a diamond. Is this right?

I agree with Neil that I really just want to make sure I am getting the true cash amount of the replacement. From what I''ve seen VVS1 European Cuts are hard to find so to replace with a similar common Round Brilliant seems like I''m getting screwed. I have asked the jeweler to give me her breakdown of how she arrived at the replacement cost, but she conveniently "forgot" to do this by my appt time so is supposed to be working on it. From here I can see the value she''s attaching to each stone (round brilliant, since she said she can''t find European Cut). I plan to compare this against three requests I have out for quotes on old European Cut replacements. If Round Brilliant ends up being more expensive, I will cash out, if it''s the European Cut, I will push State Farm to pay me actual replacement cost. Sound right?

Also, the reason I don''t want to work with the jeweler on upgrading stones etc is because I feel like she''s trying to snow me, so why would I trust her with anything at this point? I guess this is where I request a different jeweler if I want to go that route. Please let me know if I''m missing anything and THANK YOU again!!!