federal funding for Louisiana flood control projects was diverted to pay for the war in Iraq

[movie zombie]

there is an interesting article and discussion going on at:

http://alternet.org/story/24871/

holland lives below sea level and has for centuries....they can but we can''t?

peace, movie zombie

 

[Rank Amateur]

I hear those hurricanes in Holland are devastating.

 

[AGBF]

I haven''t read the link yet, but Venice is also below sea level (and also hurricane-free).

Deb

 

[Rank Amateur]

Everything is GWB''s fault. What broad shoulders he must have.

These Monday morning quarterbacks fail to realize that NewOrleans is LUCKY. That hurricane turns west instead of east and those 160+ mile per hour winds LEVEL the city. Many many buildings would fall and the people in them would be dead. The superdome could well collapse and those 25,000 people crushed. It is an absolute nightmare down there but it could easily be worse. Much worse.

 

[movie zombie]

i didn''t know everything was GW''s fault, some things, yes, but eveyrthing?!

yes, holland is pretty hurricane free....but they certainly have a commitment to staying dry! venice on the other hand appears to like it wet.......

and while it could have been worse, it could have been better if we''d had the commitment to assisting those people to get out rather than just telling them to evacuate.

peace, movie zombie

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/1/2005 8:39:55 PM
Author: movie zombie
and while it could have been worse, it could have been better if we'd had the commitment to assisting those people to get out rather than just telling them to evacuate.

Of course the government should do more than shout, "evacuate!". The evacuation "plan" for New Orleans makes the notion that the "plan" to evacuate New York City in the event of a nuclear power plant accident at nearby Indian Point particularly risible. Yet the politicians keep asserting that an evacuation of New York City could work!

Michael Cronin of Worcester, Massachusetts wrote eloquently about the farce in New Orleans in a letter to today's "The New York Times".

He wrote (in part):

"The mandatory orders to evacuate New Orleans and many other cities and towns were unequivocal. So why did so many people remain behind? Stubbornness? Fear of losing property? ... Some, perhaps.

But it appears that many had no means, no wherewithal, to leave - no cars, no relatives out of harm's way with room to spare, no money for hotels or gas.

If we are serious about homeland security, we must address the issues of the 'haves' and 'have nots' with respect to their capacity to respond to such evacuation orders.

Whether we're hit by a natural disaster, like a hurricane, or a man-made disaster, like a chemical factory explosion or a terrorist attack, we must be better prepared to assist those without resources to remain safe and secure."

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

I wanted to make sure that this and another thread were linked. The link below is a discussion in another forum, "Hangout", of some of the same issues being discussed here.

same discussion-different venue

Deborah

 

[Rank Amateur]

Date: 9/1/2005 8:39:55 PM
Author: movie zombie
it could have been better if we''d had the commitment to assisting those people to get out rather than just telling them to evacuate.

MZ, you drive me crazy.

New Orleans has something like 26 pumping stations around the city (with many locomotive-sized pumps at each station) which keep the city in the dry. Building and operating these is quite a "commitment"- an engineering marvel, really.

If the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dumbasses who had the ability to evacuate would have left, then the authorities wouldn''t be wasting their resources on them now.

 

[movie zombie]

RA, geez, talk about driving someone crazy....you''ve done it. do you really think that most of those people are there because they didn''t want to leave? just because someone didn''t have the $$$ or ability get out doesn''t make them a dumb ass. waste of resources?! wow, what a statement!

peace, movie zombie

 

[jennalyns]

RA, when the Louisiana gov''t said to evacuate, it''s not like they gave out free plane or bus tickets to those people who had no money, no car, or no place to go, or were too sick to travel. Also, if you have ever lived in that area of the country- Florida, Lousiana, Mississippi, coastal Alabama- you would understand that often evacuation warnings are given but then nothing happens, so people can become jaded to the warnings.

I was watching CNN before it hit, and about 6 hours before the storm made landfall the news was saying that the storm was going to veer to the west and completely avoid New Orleans. If I had been a New Orleans resident and had seen that, I don''t know that I would have evacuated either. That doesn''t make the people dumb- you just simply can''t predict exactly where the storm will go.

Just last week we had a typhoon (same thing as a hurricane) here in Japan- the military base closed, ships pulled out to sea to avoid damage, and they said not to leave our homes, because this was a super-typhoon and very dangerous. Well, we got some strong wind and rain for about 3 hours around 3 am, and then by 9 am it was the most hot, beautiful, sunny day we''d had in weeks. Hurricanes are so unpredicatable, and you can''t blame the people who didn''t leave, or simply COULDN''T.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/2/2005 5:15:36 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
MZ, you drive me crazy.
...
If the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dumbasses who had the ability to evacuate would have left, then the authorities wouldn't be wasting their resources on them now.

R/A-

You are just so wrong on so many counts that they are hard to enumerate. Your point of view is classic: blame the victim.

I am posting a link to a letter to "The New York Times" written by Henk Kuiken of Veldhoven in the Netherlands. Parts of his letter are excerpted as well.

In it he writes of a disaster that killed thousands in the Netherlands in 1953, shortly after World War II ended, when their system of water containment was badly compromised. Although the Netherlands was not hit by a hurricane, its being below sea level caused this massive loss of life. (Your sarcasm to Movie Zombie about hurricanes hitting the Netherlands was wasted on those of us with enough brain cells to understand that all natural disasters are not hurricanes.)

The Netherlands learned from its disaster in 1953.

"The whole country vowed that nothing like that should ever happen again, and the politicians followed suit. In the next 25 years, the government spent tens of billions of dollars building the most magnificent sea-defense system to be found anywhere in the world.

...

I suggest that a group of United States politicians visit the Netherlands and look at what has been done here in the way of prevention from disasters like the one that befell New Orleans.

I am sure that our minister of public works and her technical people will be glad to show them around.It will be amazing what they will see in a country that is the size of Connecticut and Massachusetts put together and has fewer inhabitants than New York State and yet had the foresight and sheer will to spend those tens of billions of dollars.

Let the responsible politicians in your country vow, as we did in 1953, that this may never happen again. Meanwhile our hearts go out to those bewildered people who roam the flooded streets of what was once a happy city."

The Netherlands' Response to its Disaster of 1953

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/2/2005 5:15:36 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
If the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dumbasses who had the ability to evacuate would have left, then the authorities wouldn't be wasting their resources on them now.

To the Editor:

Cheryl Bratt, who must not be "a dumbass" since she managed to flee New Orleans successfully before Hurricane Katrina also sees matters a bit differently from you. She wrote a letter to the editor of, "The New York Times" from Yorktown Heights, New York. Excerpts from it are below and a link to it is provided.

"As a now-former resident of New Orleans, given my evacuation, I am shocked by the destruction of Hurricane Katrina and appalled by our government's response to the disaster in my city. Despite the years of warnings given by Senator Mary L. Landrieu and others about this possibility, federal spending was continuously cut and threats of this destruction were ignored.

...

It is the good will of the millions of Americans who are currently donating money, resources and their own services that will save the people in New Orleans while our government twiddles its thumbs and literally leaves my neighbors behind."

Letter from Cheryl Bratt in its Entirety

Deborah

 

[Neophyte Miner]

From the official website of state of Louisiana:

The Louisiana Disaster Recovery Foundation has been established in order to help provide immediate assistance to our citizens in need through a network of Louisiana charities, non-profit and governmental agencies, including clearinghouses like the Louisiana VOAD (Volunteer Organizations Active in Disaster). The Foundation is also designed to support long-term family restoration and recovery by focusing on education, housing, health care, legal assistance and jobs for Louisiana families whose lives have been altered by Hurricane Katrina.

Donations can be made at the website online. Alternatively, via postal mail, please make donations payable to Louisiana Disaster Recovery Foundation, Inc. and mail to:

Louisiana Disaster Recovery Foundation, Inc.
Fed. Tax ID No. 20-3399944
c/o Division of Administration
1201 North Third Street, Suite 7-240
P.O. Box 94095
Baton Rouge, LA 70804-9095
Inquiries may be directed to: [email protected]

http://www.katrina.louisiana.gov/donate.htm

THIS FUND IS IMPORTANT FOR TWO REASONS...


Relief goes right to victims

MONEY HELPS LOUISIANA KEEP IT''S INDEPENDENCE!!


From Washington Post:


Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state''s emergency operations center said Saturday.



Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state''s victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort.


PLEASE get the word of the Louisiana Disaster Recovery Fund out to all sources you can think of. Please donate.


Here''s a link for those who want to help those who are helping the pets left behind - http://bestfriends.org/

 

[movie zombie]

NM, thank you for the post re federal attempt to take over LA and best friends. both organizations will be receiving my Visa card number.

peace, movie zombie

 

[movie zombie]

fyi:

http://www.katrina.louisiana.gov/donate.htm

peace, movie zombie

 

[Rank Amateur]

There are tens of thousands of people (dumbasses) who could have left but didn't. Now they remain behind sucking up critical resources intended to save those who had no choice. Looting and shooting at rescuers isn't exactly productive either.

These people are well-deserving of the blame I am assigning them. Beyond that, for the vast majority of what has happened there is no "blame". That's why it is referred to as a natural disaster.

I do however find the whining from the mayor of New Orleans particularly distasteful.

 

[movie zombie]

speaking of distasteful, RA......well, like i said in the other thread: my response would require a detailed discussion of hitler, racism, and classism....oh, yeah and a study of the history of slavery would seem to be in order for those with your similar mind set.

no time for that right now but perhaps later.

peace, movie zombie

 

[Neophyte Miner]

from RA -
There are tens of thousands of people (dumbasses) who could have left but didn''t. Now they remain behind sucking up critical resources intended to save those who had no choice. Looting and shooting at rescuers isn''t exactly productive either.

These people are well-deserving of the blame I am assigning them. Beyond that, for the vast majority of what has happened there is no "blame". That''s why it is referred to as a natural disaster.

I do however find the whining from the mayor of New Orleans I find particularly distasteful.
___________________________________________________________________

RA, thank you so much for giving such a typical and accurate representation of the Bush drone mentality. What a beautiful mind! (In terms of psychological study material, that is!)
Sleep well.

 

[MissAva]

All reformers, however strict their social conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for. ~Logan Pearsall Smith

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/6/2005 2:55:51 AM
Author: Matatora
All reformers, however strict their social conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for. ~Logan Pearsall Smith

What is your point, Matatora?

Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 9/5/2005 10:29:18 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
I do however find the whining from the mayor of New Orleans I find particularly distasteful.

Distasteful - I find it disgusting. At least his PR people have the good sense to cover the expensive furniture in his cushy digs w/ sheets when he is being interviewed from BATON ROUGE. In his own words, he hasn''t been into the city of NO.

Yes, another brilliant idea - keep the evacuation in the hands of the State of LA. They did such a bang up great job BEFORE the hurricane. And, not to mention the fiasco that was the convention center & superdome. Another bang up job of getting supplies to those folk. Another bang up job of keeping order. That fund not getting a dime of my money. A fund, solely set up for independence? Sounds like a fund set up solely for political reasons. All this posturing by all parties is disgusting.

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 9/5/2005 11:13:48 PM
Author: Neophyte Miner
from RA -

There are tens of thousands of people (dumbasses) who could have left but didn''t. Now they remain behind sucking up critical resources intended to save those who had no choice. Looting and shooting at rescuers isn''t exactly productive either.


These people are well-deserving of the blame I am assigning them. Beyond that, for the vast majority of what has happened there is no ''blame''. That''s why it is referred to as a natural disaster.


I do however find the whining from the mayor of New Orleans I find particularly distasteful.

___________________________________________________________________


RA, thank you so much for giving such a typical and accurate representation of the Bush drone mentality. What a beautiful mind! (In terms of psychological study material, that is!)

Sleep well.

MINER.. although I do not agree 100% with RA.. I do disagree with you and your "representation of Bush Drone mentality" so quick to label and so ignorant the source. Perhaps I could start my rant on the moral decay of society because of the liberal eh? NO? then I think you should use proof and facts to dispute RA as opposed to generalization. We all are guilty of it here... so this is just a check.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/6/2005 9:30:18 AM
Author: MINE!!
Perhaps I could start my rant on the moral decay of society because of the liberal eh?

Mine,

You are out of the loop. That was already done (in a posting by Matatora over in Hangout) and is probably why Neophyte Miner is using this tone. You do need to read the threads and catch up (as you mentioned elsewhere). You are missing too many pieces of the puzzle!

Welcome back!

Deb

 

[MissAva]

I dont think we ought to judge others until we are perfect ourselves...JMO.

ETA: I know that I am far from perfect, which is why I have not been commenting on these forums lately.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/6/2005 10:17:42 AM
Author: Matatora
I dont think we ought to judge others until we are perfect ourselves...JMO.
ETA: I know that I am far from perfect, which is why I have not been commenting on these forums lately.

This is your right, Matatora. I was just attacked in another thread (the posting has since been modified) for failing to leave my young child as a latchkey kid to go to New Orleans. The more I am attacked for my personal qualities, the more I will speak out. Because no matter what my flaws are as a person, my opinions can stand alone. I will not allow my flaws or their being pointed out to keep me from pointing out the gross inequities in our society. If someone can intimidate another person into remaining silent by calling her names, then all the people vulnerable to criticism will remain silent in the face of evil!


Deborah

 

[Rank Amateur]

On the plus side, the private charaties are stepping up in a huge way and delivering the goods to the people.

Cudos to them and the US Military for picking up the pieces.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 9/5/2005 10:29:18 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
There are tens of thousands of people (dumbasses) who could have left but didn''t. Now they remain behind sucking up critical resources intended to save those who had no choice. Looting and shooting at rescuers isn''t exactly productive either.

i agree, getting shot at is no picnic. so i don''t feel sorry for those people if they don''t get rescued. as for the looting, i understand the necessities (like batteries, clothes, food and water), but when people start stealing big electronics items, that''s a no,no

.

 

[thebanjodog]

deborah this will be my last post on this topic or any other controversial topic you are addressing. i believe you are referring to me when you state that you were attacked on another thread.

let me make it perfectly clear here you were not attacked. in fact i used you as an example of someone who''s situation i understood. i hear you say you could not leave your daughter for two weeks to volunteer for this current situation. you have been very vocal on people not stepping up with the appropriate help for the poor. i used that situation to make a point.

that point being, everything that does not work out to be the most desired situation does not happen because there was ill will or evil or injustice. i have at no time tried to silence anyone speaking up for the inequalities of society. i have tried to express my opinion that i don''t think this was evil conjured up by any human but the result of a natural disaster that simply overwelmed the preventative and coping procedures that had been planned for. the fact that you were speaking up for the victims but could not make it happen for you to help out showed me that others who hadn''t done everything possible to prevent this situation may have a reason also.

yes, i still feel there is enough blame to go around. i don''t think that excuses anybody. i believe it spreads it around. i have spent a good bit of time reading your past posts and i don''t think i or anybody has tried to silence you. and i don''t think i called you any names. i did say put up or shut up and after this post this topic is off limits to me. but don''t make yourself a victim because i have not tried to silence your political opinions or called you any names.


and in case you did not read my post entirely i said that i did not think name calling would get me any place. i also offered an apology to anybody who was offended by my opinion. that was not a snide remark, i very carefully thought of what i wanted to say before i posted that particuliar thought.

i think you have no problem calling things as you see them and i called this situation as i saw it. i guess my opinion that blame be held until the crisis had past was not acceptable to you. i may be guilty of stupidity but it was and is not my intention to intentionally hurt people. if posting my opinion is going to cause trouble i don''t need that in my life but please don''t make yourself a victim. i certainly have no power to silence you or hurt your reputation on this forum by calling you names. the posts will stand for themselves. everyone here can interpret them for themselves. if i have not said this in a politically correct way i am sorry but that is the way i see it. banjo

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/7/2005 10:43:04 AM
Author: thebanjodog
i used you as an example of someone who's situation i understood. i hear you say you could not leave your daughter for two weeks to volunteer for this current situation. you have been very vocal on people not stepping up with the appropriate help for the poor. i used that situation to make a point.
...
the fact that you were speaking up for the victims but could not make it happen for you to help out showed me that others who hadn't done everything possible to prevent this situation may have a reason also.

What you wrote was actually, "the strongest proponent of the masses can not arrange two weeks of her life to help out in the field she is trained for. i understand her situation. perhaps she should step back and cut the others a little slack also."

The reason it was (in my opinion) mean-spirited was that it portrayed me as someone failing to do her duty. You say that although I criticized the people in power I "can not arrange two weeks of (her) life to help out in the field (she) is trained for". I sound so selfish! All that was asked of me was two weeks!

Well...here is my perception of reality: I wasn't derelict in my duty, but George Bush was.

Perhaps to you it is a fine distinction whether I was "trained" to be a social worker but gave up my job 13 years ago to be a stay-at-home mom and that an elected official (like George Bush) ran for elective office with every resource possible because he <desperately[/b] wanted power, wanted to be President. It does not appear to be a fine distinction to me.

I gave up having a double income, very happily, because my daughter came first. I was 41 when she was born and I wanted to be with her all the time. Her well-being is my first priority at all times. She couldn't sleep before school started because she was so worried about what it would be like in eighth grade. Last night she needed me to sign forms saying that I, along with her, had read the rules about Spanish class and how the Internet may be used at school.

I felt "attacked" because you were saying that a stay-at-home mom who refused to leave her child was just as derelict in her duty as the President of the United States who failed to get aid to the site of a catastrophe for four days while people died. I felt "attacked" because I, due to the dereliction of my duty, was supposed to cut the President "some slack".

Irina and Leonid do not have to close this thread on my behalf. I am calm and not calling you any names. You do not have to leave this thread or any other because I am participating in it. If you refuse to participate in threads in which I am writing, that is your choice. I am not doing anything to chase you away, just telling it the way I see it.

Deborah

 

[mightyred]

Whilst I can at times be the first of many to jump on the ''bash the feds'' band wagon ....as time and this terrible disaster plays out , I begin to look at the local level more closely.....and I am truly horrified.

There is a local and state process before anything gets to the feds ( and thats just the way the local and states want it).

This was a disaster waiting to happen according to the Times-Picayune in July:
In Storm, N.O wants to be left behind.

The dvd''s were supposed to go out this month and sucks if you can''t afford a dvd player.

It makes me wish Oprah and the likes would be more careful before they parade Nagin around as the innocent in this. He is as much to blame as any as is Blanco and the feds.

In times like this I take 10 steps back, then five more. More often than not these things take time to play out before you truly get a chance to understand the magnitude of it.