Wedding Family/friend issue...advice?

[alli_esq]

Oh, dear. I apologize in advance for the length of this.

So, I am just newly engaged, I''m not yet planning a wedding (waiting until after the bar exam in July to start even seriously thinking about planning)...but I already have a problem.

Here''s the sitch (it''s kinda complicated):

I''ve had a very close friend (I considered him my BFF...I''ll call him R) for years and years...I moved in with him a couple of years ago, right before his brother got married. I was his date to the wedding (he didn''t have a boyfriend at the time), we had a great time, and I ended up hooking up with his new SIL''s brother (!).

That guy is now my FI. ha!

They always got along just great (their siblings had dated about 7-8 years by the time they got married, so they knew each other pretty well), but as I started seeing more and more and more of my now-FI, R started getting really annoyed. R hated that he was always over, and would be kind of bitchy about it. So eventually, I stopped bringing him over, and spent the last year or so of our lease at my now-FI''s apartment 5-7 days/week.

Well, at the beginning of our relationship, FI and I used to fight a lot and R saw that...R is VERY VERY judgmental (and, incidentally, has MANY issues with commitment and has never had a relationship that has lasted more than few months, and that''s only happened like twice--and he''s almost 27). Since then, FI and I have worked through a LOT of our problems, and I''m very very happy...but R and I have grown apart. A lot. Due in part because I''m in law school and in a relationship (both of which are very time-consuming, leaving not much energy for much else), but also due to the fact that he has been so disapproving of my relationship with FI.

Furthermore, R is VERY eccentric and very flamboyant...and tends to be really inappropriate. For me, I think it''s hilarious. But FI is annoyed and somewhat disgusted by his behavior, which he never saw before he met me (R is much more subdued around his family than around his friends...as many of us are).

They''re brothers-in-law. They have to go to family events together. My FSIL has begged me to talk to R about how they don''t get along because it makes her very uncomfortable about events. People have said to me, "how could you be serious about someone who doesn''t get along with your best friend?" Well, I''ll tell ya--I love R, but he has very...different...judgment, than I do(that has been evidenced in many ways)...and although he''s been a great friend to me over the years, he holds a grudge.

The point of all this? FI and I were talking about our possible wedding party, and he told me point blank that if I want R in the party, he won''t stop me, but it will very likely ruin the day for him. The wedding is an indefinite amount of time away (at least well over a year, if not closer to two or more), but I don''t know. Not having R (who is really not exactly my "best friend" anymore, per se, but I do love him and I am still very close with him) in my party is very important to me, but it''s my FI and my day, and I don''t want to ruin it for him either.

R has congratulated me on the engagement, but we haven''t discussed my relationship for a long time, which has worked just fine for us. FI says he doesn''t want people who don''t wish us well involved in the wedding, which I can''t blame him for feeling...and it''s not like R has said anything overtly negative about my relationship (at least not for the last year and a half or so)...

Any advice would be very helpful. I''m sorry this is long, and I appreciate anyone who read all this...

 

[cara]

R doesn''t sound like he supports your relationship. Nor does it sound like he is your best friend anymore, or even a good friend. A good friend would make an effort to get along with your fiance, as a means of preserving his relationship with you. While he is family, the family connection is less relevant here than his prior friendship with you.

While I am inclined to say defer to your FI, I want to know why your FI feels his day might be ruined if R were in the wedding party. Is it because he thinks R would say something inappropriate? Is it because R would be silently seething or badmouthing him? You say R hasn''t said inappropriate things in the last year and a half - has he made any effort at repairing the damage? Any apologies? Effort to get along? Is there any way in which you feel your FI is partly responsible for the animosity?

While the answers to these questions will help, my tentative answer is to hide behind gender roles and have only female attendants for you, male for your FI, and preferably less rather than more. Then your FI is not obligated to ask R, R can be a normal guest, and everyone can save face.

 

[alli_esq]

Thank you for your quick response, Cara!!

Date: 5/7/2008 5:56:46 PM
Author: cara
R doesn''t sound like he supports your relationship. Nor does it sound like he is your best friend anymore, or even a good friend. A good friend would make an effort to get along with your fiance, as a means of preserving his relationship with you. While he is family, the family connection is less relevant here than his prior friendship with you.

While I am inclined to say defer to your FI, I want to know why your FI feels his day might be ruined if R were in the wedding party. Is it because he thinks R would say something inappropriate? Is it because R would be silently seething or badmouthing him? You say R hasn''t said inappropriate things in the last year and a half - has he made any effort at repairing the damage? Any apologies? Effort to get along? Is there any way in which you feel your FI is partly responsible for the animosity?
It''s totally mutual. They have both done things to bother the other. And I''m sure a lot of it is my fault because I tend to be wilder with R than I usually am, and FI doesn''t like that I do that stuff either. FI has been a jerk to R on more than one occasion, and R doesn''t think HE owes FI any apologies. Of course, R never thinks he owes an apology to anyone.

While the answers to these questions will help, my tentative answer is to hide behind gender roles and have only female attendants for you, male for your FI, and preferably less rather than more. Then your FI is not obligated to ask R, R can be a normal guest, and everyone can save face. Well, the problems are:
1. I''m going to have one of FI''s female friends on my side, probably...and
2. I already mentioned to R that I wanted him involved...stupid me

 

[lliang_chi]

Very good suggestion Cara. I''d probably do something like that (without any more info).

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

My MOH is my best friend, male and who is my city''s premier Maddona immpersonator. I can''t imagine anyone else standing with me and it would bother me to end end if my FI said no but wasn''t very clear why.

Why doesn''t your FI like R? Why does he think having R stand with you would ruin the day for him? Does your FI realize he is as much to blame for the situation as R (that''s how your second post made it sound)?

I don''t think it is fair to R to tell him you wanted him to stand, because it sounds like you do, then lie and say no, it is because of a gender thing. Especially when it sounds like he has been behaving for a while now.

I really think you need to get to the bottom of what is going on with your FI. My FMIL is very against the marriage, but she is still standing because she is family, shouldn''t you at least consider someone who is like family and actually is to your FI?

 

[alli_esq]

Date: 5/7/2008 6:15:12 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
My MOH is my best friend, male and who is my city''s premier Maddona immpersonator. I can''t imagine anyone else standing with me and it would bother me to end end if my FI said no but wasn''t very clear why.
I hear ya, I really do. But, it is clear to me why FI doesn''t want him there--he just plainly doesn''t like him. He thinks he''s inappropriate and obnoxious and judgmental. I agree that R is inappropriate at some times, but it doesn''t bother me the way it bothers FI--not even close.

Why doesn''t your FI like R? Why does he think having R stand with you would ruin the day for him? Does your FI realize he is as much to blame for the situation as R (that''s how your second post made it sound)?
No, FI just thinks R''s wrong for being so loud and outspoken and free saying things that FI thinks shouldn''t be said in public. And R just thinks FI is a jerk for being judgmental about those things.

I don''t think it is fair to R to tell him you wanted him to stand, because it sounds like you do, then lie and say no, it is because of a gender thing. Especially when it sounds like he has been behaving for a while now.
I agree. That''s one of the problems I have with this situation

I really think you need to get to the bottom of what is going on with your FI. My FMIL is very against the marriage, but she is still standing because she is family, shouldn''t you at least consider someone who is like family and actually is to your FI?
FI doesn''t consider R family--he just sees him (as much as I hate this) as an annoying gay guy. I don''t think FI is actually homophobic--he really had no problem with R until he started seeing him and his "wild side" when FI and I started dating. R just makes a lot of inappropriate jokes and never tones it down unless he''s around his family. FI just hates being around him, especially on a day like this when we only want to be surrounded by people who are happy for us. He also thinks R brings out a side of me that he finds unbecoming (which I sort of understand--I do have a tendency to drink a lot and act pretty childish around R)...not that I would do that at our wedding, but they have a history...

I feel like there are no good answers to this.

 

[cara]

Well, your FI''s role in creating this mess is relevant. R and FI don''t need to apologize to each other, but they do need to grow up and attempt to get along if you are to keep them both in your life. You might speak to them separately about this. And remind FI that R is why you are together in the first place.

Frankly, even with an attitude readjustment it seems like a bad idea to have R stand up for FI. If R is willing and able to be a supportive adult about this (and your FI is willing to be a supportive adult about this), you might consider having him in some role. A reader would be ideal, if that is consistent with your ceremony. Or have him stand up on your side, paired against your FI''s female friend standing up for him. Since R would be a bride''s attendant, he wouldn''t have to do bachelor party and other groom-related activities.

But if neither one is going to be a grown-up, you may have to give up on one of them! I only hope that your FI isn''t the bigger baby

 

[doodle]

i second the idea of having R be a reader if you can''t work it out otherwise, but i think your FI is being a little unfair. R is family, whether FI likes it or not, he''s a close friend of yours, y''all met because of him, and if my FI told me that a flamboyant gay man is all it takes to ruin his wedding day, i''d be highly upset!!!!!! not to mention, if i read that correctly, your FI has a female friend who will be standing up on YOUR side, as in FI''s girl friend will be a bridesmaid, right? if you''re doing this, either he can get over R standing up on his side, or his female friend can stand up for him and R for you. as far as them working out their issues, they''re grown men! play nice! remind your FI that it could be a lot worse (my best friend is an ex with whom i lived for a while; my FI handles this remarkably well, so it''s definitely possible!). hope you figure everything out!

 

[bee*]

Date: 5/8/2008 3:33:21 AM
Author: doodle
i second the idea of having R be a reader if you can''t work it out otherwise, but i think your FI is being a little unfair. R is family, whether FI likes it or not, he''s a close friend of yours, y''all met because of him, and if my FI told me that a flamboyant gay man is all it takes to ruin his wedding day, i''d be highly upset!!!!!! not to mention, if i read that correctly, your FI has a female friend who will be standing up on YOUR side, as in FI''s girl friend will be a bridesmaid, right? if you''re doing this, either he can get over R standing up on his side, or his female friend can stand up for him and R for you. as far as them working out their issues, they''re grown men! play nice! remind your FI that it could be a lot worse (my best friend is an ex with whom i lived for a while; my FI handles this remarkably well, so it''s definitely possible!). hope you figure everything out!

ditto. Why don''t you have his friend stand with him and R stand with you? My best friend is also a guy, and D absolutely adores this as anything that D doesn''t want to do, he tells me to bring C with me. It sounds like you get along really well with R when FI isn''t there and not so much, when he is there and if I were R, I''d be upset with that also. I am head over heels in love with D, but it would really bother me if he didn''t try and make an effort with C, as C has been my best friend for years, as it seems R has been for you. I''d sit down with them both individually and see is there anyway to work it out.

 

[alli_esq]

Date: 5/8/2008 4:03:11 AM
Author: bee*

Date: 5/8/2008 3:33:21 AM

Author: doodle

i second the idea of having R be a reader if you can''t work it out otherwise, but i think your FI is being a little unfair. R is family, whether FI likes it or not, he''s a close friend of yours, y''all met because of him, and if my FI told me that a flamboyant gay man is all it takes to ruin his wedding day, i''d be highly upset!!!!!! not to mention, if i read that correctly, your FI has a female friend who will be standing up on YOUR side, as in FI''s girl friend will be a bridesmaid, right? if you''re doing this, either he can get over R standing up on his side, or his female friend can stand up for him and R for you. as far as them working out their issues, they''re grown men! play nice! remind your FI that it could be a lot worse (my best friend is an ex with whom i lived for a while; my FI handles this remarkably well, so it''s definitely possible!). hope you figure everything out!

ditto. Why don''t you have his friend stand with him and R stand with you? My best friend is also a guy, and D absolutely adores this as anything that D doesn''t want to do, he tells me to bring C with me. It sounds like you get along really well with R when FI isn''t there and not so much, when he is there and if I were R, I''d be upset with that also. I am head over heels in love with D, but it would really bother me if he didn''t try and make an effort with C, as C has been my best friend for years, as it seems R has been for you. I''d sit down with them both individually and see is there anyway to work it out.

That was actually what I suggested--that R would stand for me, and wouldn''t go to the bachelor party or anything, would just be at my shower and whatever else...but FI just doesn''t want him as part of the wedding party. The issue isn''t really what SIDE he''ll be on--it''s that he''ll be up there at all. FI told me that if R wasn''t such a good friend of mine, FI wouldn''t even want him at the wedding at all, since R has so openly expressed his disapproval of our relationship (though not to me for quite some time--apparently he has told FSIL that he''s unhappy that we''re engaged, or something along those lines). I understand FI''s feelings, but as long as R doesn''t say things like that to ME, I don''t particularly care (my cousin, whom my mother really wants in my wedding party, has voiced her disapproval, TO ME, of my relationship from its inception, and will not be involved in my wedding).

I don''t want to upset FI about this--he''s already not into wedding stuff and I know that if he doesn''t get his way about something that he finds to be such an emotional issue, he will be even less excited about celebrating our day together. He will see it as a bad way to "start our lives together" because I should be putting his feelings above R''s--he has always had some jealousy thing on top of all the rest when it comes to my relationship with R.

I will probably end up not having R in my party (we are not going to have a religious ceremony, so a reading isn''t an option, unfortunately), but I feel like I have no say in this. There are so few things that are important to me, and the fact that one of them is something that will make FI so unhappy is just...ugh. And it''s not like he will prevent me from doing it--but I don''t want to risk his happiness on our day.

I can''t make them like each other, and they are both so stubborn and childish about this. I mean, I have disliked some of my friends'' partners, and even if I''m not crazy about them, I still make an effort to be kind and happy for them. R is very immature (one of the reasons we''ve grown a bit apart the last two years) and just simply wrote off FI a long time ago--once he decides not to like someone, they''re off his list forever, and I don''t see how my talking to him about it is going to change anything. If I tell him how FI feels about this--that he doesn''t want him involved in the wedding because he''s been so disapproving of our relationship--it will be just one more reason why he hates FI and thinks he''s an unreasonable jerk, and that I am weak for not standing my ground. FSIL has literally begged me to try to change his mind--but I don''t see how I can, and I told her that. I told her that if she wants to, she''s more than welcome to sit him down, but she says they don''t have that kind of a relationship and he won''t listen to her. Well, he won''t listen to me either!

Part of me just feels like throwing up my hands and saying that I don''t want to spend all this time and energy and money on a wedding that will be so bittersweet for me. There are no easy answers here.

Thanks for responding, cara, doodle and bee--I really appreciate it. You are lucky to have FI/DHs and friends who get along great! I will mention that FI does get along great with my other friends--though he has been reluctant to meet my ex with whom I am very close (we''re in NY and the ex is in CA, so he''s only been back to visit a few times since I''ve been with FI, and FI doesn''t really care if he meets him or not). Come to think of it, he''s just generally not supportive of my being friends with guys, and since I don''t have that many male friends, it hasn''t been much of a problem for me...but this is a biggie. He only has one good female friend (childhood friend), and he''s close with his sister, so he has this antiquated notion that women and men generally can''t be just friends--and I think that somehow, even though R is obviously gay, that''s part of the jealousy issue between them. meh, now I''m just being overly analytical to the point where it''s not helping anything.

 

[surfgirl]

Can I ask the pink elephant in the room question? Is your FI perhaps homophobic..or because he thinks the guy is obnoxious? I ask because it seems like he''s never approved of him from the get go. I''m also perplexed why this is even an issue for you right now since you have no immediate plans to marry and it sounds like the wedding is a long way off. Your description of your BFF doesn''t seem like you''re still even friends with him, so am I missing something? Why not let this be a non issue until you''re ready to plan the wedding...and then at that time, just have female attendants, as others have suggested. No big deal. I dont think you owe this guy an explanation if you''re not really close anymore. Way too many people on her complain about their BMs and how they feel obligated to ask someone who "used to be" a good friend but now is not. I dont see why you should have to have a "used to be" BFF in your wedding party at all. You should be surrounded by people who support you AND your FI as a couple on your wedding day.

 

[Gypsy]

HI alli,

Here are my thoughts. We aren't having a religious ceremony either. But we are having readings. 2 of them, and honestly... without them the ceremony would be like 5 minutes LOL. They aren't long poems but they are about love (and I have the thread exploring like 30 different non-religious reading options) and commitment, things are are universal to marriage. It's your ceremony, do what you want.

And second, unless you are planning on having a very small wedding of like 15 people. What about making him an usher? He contributes, seats people, gets a boutineer, is mentioned in the program. But is never ever near your FI?

Take care of yourself during studying, and good luck on the exam!

 

[gwendolyn]

It seems to me that, since you''re even mentioning this topic this far in advance, that it''s important for you to have R as a part of your day. My best friend back home is a guy named Brandon, and he and I have been best friends for about fifteen years or so. He got married a year and a half ago, and had always said that he was going to have this relaxed wedding where I would get to stand with him because we''re such good friends, even though I''m a chick and am not "supposed to be" on his side. Well, the woman he married had other ideas. She was jealous of our relationship, even though I posed absolutely no threat to her, and she didn''t want me in the wedding party, on either side. He almost cried when he told me, saying he wished it could be different. The reason she gave officially (for Brandon to pass on to me) was that there wasn''t enough room in the wedding party for me because she already had 7 or 8 bridesmaids and didn''t want any more (she never once entertained the thought of me standing on B''s side). Anyway, Brandon said they wanted me to be a reader. That was the compromise. Honestly, considering I knew how she felt about me, I probably would''ve preferred not to be involved as anything other than a guest because I didn''t want to be a huge downer to her.

I guess the point of my little trip down memory lane is that everyone knows being a reader is a runner-up position if you''re a friend, especially if you are a best friend. Only you know in your heart whether you consider this guy a best friend still, or if you are trying to live in the past by remembering how things used to be. But, if you do still consider this guy a best friend, maybe you could try to tell your fiance that it''s important to you that he stand with you. You''ve got lots of time to talk to him about it, and if his only reason is that the dude annoys him? Well, sorry, but being your good/best friend trumps that, in my book. It''s your wedding as much as it is your fiance''s.

 

[alli_esq]

Date: 5/8/2008 1:43:59 PM
Author: surfgirl
Can I ask the pink elephant in the room question? Is your FI perhaps homophobic..or because he thinks the guy is obnoxious? I ask because it seems like he''s never approved of him from the get go. I''m also perplexed why this is even an issue for you right now since you have no immediate plans to marry and it sounds like the wedding is a long way off. Your description of your BFF doesn''t seem like you''re still even friends with him, so am I missing something? Why not let this be a non issue until you''re ready to plan the wedding...and then at that time, just have female attendants, as others have suggested. No big deal. I dont think you owe this guy an explanation if you''re not really close anymore. Way too many people on her complain about their BMs and how they feel obligated to ask someone who ''used to be'' a good friend but now is not. I dont see why you should have to have a ''used to be'' BFF in your wedding party at all. You should be surrounded by people who support you AND your FI as a couple on your wedding day.

That is a totally fair question--I honestly don''t think FI is homophobic; he just hates how R acts. R tends to be inappropriate (not just in mannerism--like when he humped the floor at my brother''s bar mitzvah, when all of my family''s friends and my father''s boss was there--but how he flippantly talks about things that FI finds distasteful and personal--like when he has teased FI about the subject of fights that FI and I have had), and although I find it kind of funny when he does stuff like that, FI takes things FAR more personally than I do. I tend to be someone who makes fun of herself a lot, but FI is just not that way, and doesn''t like being teased about what he thinks are very serious issues. R doesn''t care what FI does or doesn''t like, and will do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, no matter how anyone else feels about it. I don''t believe he would do something like dance provocatively at one of my family events again (my parents were really, REALLY mad at him after that, but that was 8 years ago), but he would most certainly say something inappropriate to FI again.

It IS a long way off, and I am certainly obsessing about something that does not need to be addressed right now. But oh, that''s my way...haha

Better than focusing on the PAPER I should be writing!

I am definitely still friends with R--we''re just not attached at the hip like we used to be. I don''t go out drinking like I used to, and I am much more conservative with my money (read: my debt consists entirely of student loans--R''s debt is primarily credit card and related to alcohol and cool electronics), so going out in NY on a regular basis like he does is just not something I put high on my list of priorities--whereas that''s pretty much all he does. So, there''s that.

Sorry I''m rambly.

 

[alli_esq]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:04:22 PM
Author: gwendolyn
It seems to me that, since you''re even mentioning this topic this far in advance, that it''s important for you to have R as a part of your day. My best friend back home is a guy named Brandon, and he and I have been best friends for about fifteen years or so. He got married a year and a half ago, and had always said that he was going to have this relaxed wedding where I would get to stand with him because we''re such good friends, even though I''m a chick and am not ''supposed to be'' on his side. Well, the woman he married had other ideas. She was jealous of our relationship, even though I posed absolutely no threat to her, and she didn''t want me in the wedding party, on either side. He almost cried when he told me, saying he wished it could be different. The reason she gave officially (for Brandon to pass on to me) was that there wasn''t enough room in the wedding party for me because she already had 7 or 8 bridesmaids and didn''t want any more (she never once entertained the thought of me standing on B''s side). Anyway, Brandon said they wanted me to be a reader. That was the compromise. Honestly, considering I knew how she felt about me, I probably would''ve preferred not to be involved as anything other than a guest because I didn''t want to be a huge downer to her.


I guess the point of my little trip down memory lane is that everyone knows being a reader is a runner-up position if you''re a friend, especially if you are a best friend. Only you know in your heart whether you consider this guy a best friend still, or if you are trying to live in the past by remembering how things used to be. But, if you do still consider this guy a best friend, maybe you could try to tell your fiance that it''s important to you that he stand with you. You''ve got lots of time to talk to him about it, and if his only reason is that the dude annoys him? Well, sorry, but being your good/best friend trumps that, in my book. It''s your wedding as much as it is your fiance''s.

First of all, Gwendolyn--you are a sweetheart, and I just want to say that...you are so thoughtful and I appreciate your responses so much. (You''re ALL sweethearts for responding!)

I do agree with you about the reader thing, too. He is not who I would consider my "best friend" to be anymore, but like I said--we are still close, and he is still very much like family to me.

You''re right--I do have lots of time... my concern is that they are both very very very stubborn guys and I have trouble believing they are going to work this out... FI mentioned to me yesterday that he would like to not discuss this again. Obviously, it WILL come up again at some point, but I just know it''s not something on which he will change his position unless something drastic happens...which I can''t imagine.

FI said I could have him in the party--he won''t stop me from it--but he says it will ruin his day and the planning if he knows that someone who is involved is so opposed to our union. It''s really a combination of problems that he has with R, some of which I do understand...and yes, it is both of our wedding, which is why I don''t want to just sit here and say to FI, "Get over it, baby. It''s MY day and I''ll have who I want, no matter what YOU feel!"

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

and yes, it is both of our wedding, which is why I don''t want to just sit here and say to FI, "Get over it, baby. It''s MY day and I''ll have who I want, no matter what YOU feel!"

Isn''t this exactly what your FI is saying to you? That it''s his day and you can''t have someone you are close to with you without ruining everything.

I don''t mean to be rude but your FI is being extremely childish. Jelous of a friend because he''s male, making unfair ultimatums and then being unwilling to talk about it. It sounds like there are bigger problems here that have to be worked out. I find it worrying he is not excited for the wedding and is having such big issues this far from the wedding. I really think you guys need to have a long talk. If I am totally off base I appologize, I know how things get lost in translation on the internet, but this is what I am getting from your posts.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:31:55 PM
Author: alli_esq
First of all, Gwendolyn--you are a sweetheart, and I just want to say that...you are so thoughtful and I appreciate your responses so much. (You''re ALL sweethearts for responding!)


I do agree with you about the reader thing, too. He is not who I would consider my ''best friend'' to be anymore, but like I said--we are still close, and he is still very much like family to me.


You''re right--I do have lots of time... my concern is that they are both very very very stubborn guys and I have trouble believing they are going to work this out... FI mentioned to me yesterday that he would like to not discuss this again. Obviously, it WILL come up again at some point, but I just know it''s not something on which he will change his position unless something drastic happens...which I can''t imagine.


FI said I could have him in the party--he won''t stop me from it--but he says it will ruin his day and the planning if he knows that someone who is involved is so opposed to our union. It''s really a combination of problems that he has with R, some of which I do understand...and yes, it is both of our wedding, which is why I don''t want to just sit here and say to FI, ''Get over it, baby. It''s MY day and I''ll have who I want, no matter what YOU feel!''

No, no, I totally get why you wouldn''t say "It''s my day and I want him in the wedding whether you like it or not!" I guess it just feels like your fiance''s pulling a bit of a guilt trip on you saying, "Sure, have him in the wedding if you want, but it will totally ruin the day for me." THE DAY being his WEDDING day. I just can''t shake the feeling that it''s a guilt trip, and that bothers me a little. Makes me feel more inclined to say I think that R should be in the wedding.

Ideally, what I think should happen is that the two guys get together and talk things over because they both love you and want you to be happy. Realistically, this sounds like it will never happen if your fiance isn''t even open to *talking* about this guy with you again. Which I think is a shame. It''s also, incidentally, why I don''t want to have a bridal party in my own wedding. Because in my experience, they''ve hurt, offended or excluded people more than I think they''ve made people feel good, and dealing with that kind of thing on what''s supposed to be the happiest day of our lives seems kinda counter-productive.

Maybe a good place to start would be to figure out where you stand with this friend, R. Do you want to let go of his friendship, or do you want to remain close? You said he''s not still your best friend, but you consider him to be like family. Do you think he''d understand and be ok with being a reader? Or just attending as a guest? Or do you think his feelings would be hurt? I''m ultra-sensitive so I know my feelings were hurt (that and Brandon and I were still best friends at the time of his wedding). But if R isn''t as touchy, maybe he''d just shrug it off, and you''re worrying for nothing? Or maybe the best plan is to see how things develop this next year and see where things stand when it''s actually time to invite people?

I really don''t envy your position, m''dear. It''s not fun to feel torn between your friends and your man.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:43:32 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
and yes, it is both of our wedding, which is why I don''t want to just sit here and say to FI, ''Get over it, baby. It''s MY day and I''ll have who I want, no matter what YOU feel!''


Isn''t this exactly what your FI is saying to you? That it''s his day and you can''t have someone you are close to with you without ruining everything.


I don''t mean to be rude but your FI is being extremely childish. Jelous of a friend because he''s male, making unfair ultimatums and then being unwilling to talk about it. It sounds like there are bigger problems here that have to be worked out. I find it worrying he is not excited for the wedding and is having such big issues this far from the wedding. I really think you guys need to have a long talk. If I am totally off base I appologize, I know how things get lost in translation on the internet, but this is what I am getting from your posts.

Yeah, this is how I felt too, although I sorta pussy-footed around the wording a bit more.

 

[alli_esq]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:43:32 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
and yes, it is both of our wedding, which is why I don''t want to just sit here and say to FI, ''Get over it, baby. It''s MY day and I''ll have who I want, no matter what YOU feel!''


Isn''t this exactly what your FI is saying to you? That it''s his day and you can''t have someone you are close to with you without ruining everything.


I don''t mean to be rude but your FI is being extremely childish. Jelous of a friend because he''s male, making unfair ultimatums and then being unwilling to talk about it. It sounds like there are bigger problems here that have to be worked out. I find it worrying he is not excited for the wedding and is having such big issues this far from the wedding. I really think you guys need to have a long talk. If I am totally off base I appologize, I know how things get lost in translation on the internet, but this is what I am getting from your posts.

no, you''re not rude at all...of course there are other issues underlying eeeeverything!

You are right--FI is being childish. So is R. They SHOULD just get along and be happy that we''re having a special day...
FI would not have brought any of it up--I was just wondering who he thought he might have on his side for the bridal party (in the very distant future!), and all of this sort of spilled out of him.

We have talked about his issues with R time and time again--and I used to talk with R about his issues with FI...but the truth is, they are both very judgmental and childish and unwilling to work things out. I wish I could do something to intervene, but I know that I cannot change their opinions of the other, so I long ago gave up trying to do that...

Plus, on a regular basis, I don''t mind being with one or the other of them. If it means that R doesn''t want to spend Christmas at his brother''s and SIL''s (who will soon be MY BIL and SIL! so complicated...) because FI will be there, well...that''s sad to me. But that''s his choice. And I refuse to let it ruin my holidays or even my...y''know THURSday...hehe. If R has a party, I go alone, and I''m fine with that because I have a great time with R and his friends. But, you know, it''s our wedding we''re talking about here. And even though FI is being undeniably childish about it, that''s just how he''s being, and I can''t pretend he''s not, and can''t convince him not to be--he feels strongly about this, even though it is upsetting to me. He''s not doing it because he wants to make things hard on me--he''s saying it because he really doesn''t want R to ruin our day for him.

Does that make sense?

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:56:53 PM
Author: alli_esq
He''s not doing it because he wants to make things hard on me--he''s saying it because he really doesn''t want R to ruin our day for him.


Does that make sense?

Yes and no. What''s the difference between R being in the wedding party, being a reader, and being a guest? He''s going to be there, regardless. It seems that your FI objects to just the mere *presence* of R, so if he knows the guy is going to be at the wedding no matter what, why can''t he just (sorry to be rude but) suck it up the rest of the way and deal with him being in the wedding party because he is important to you?

 

[alli_esq]

Date: 5/8/2008 3:00:31 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 5/8/2008 2:56:53 PM

Author: alli_esq

He''s not doing it because he wants to make things hard on me--he''s saying it because he really doesn''t want R to ruin our day for him.



Does that make sense?

Yes and no. What''s the difference between R being in the wedding party, being a reader, and being a guest? He''s going to be there, regardless. It seems that your FI objects to just the mere *presence* of R, so if he knows the guy is going to be at the wedding no matter what, why can''t he just (sorry to be rude but) suck it up the rest of the way and deal with him being in the wedding party because he is important to you?

::sigh:: you''re right Gwendolyn, no doubt. I WISH he would just suck it up--that''s what he SHOULD do. But I know him, and he won''t. So my choice is either to make him miserable (which will in turn make me miserable) or just be unhappy on my own. Just as there is a big difference to ME if R is in the wedding party or just invited, there s a big difference on the opposite end for FI. FI doesn''t want anyone up there with us who doesn''t 100% support our union. And although R will keep his mouth shut to ME about it, it doesn''t change the fact that he still thinks of us as the bickering, fighting couple he saw once upon a time, and that nothing has changed with us.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 5/8/2008 3:09:48 PM
Author: alli_esq
::sigh:: you''re right Gwendolyn, no doubt. I WISH he would just suck it up--that''s what he SHOULD do. But I know him, and he won''t. So my choice is either to make him miserable (which will in turn make me miserable) or just be unhappy on my own.

This makes me sad. You shouldn''t be unhappy on your wedding day.

Just as there is a big difference to ME if R is in the wedding party or just invited, there s a big difference on the opposite end for FI. FI doesn''t want anyone up there with us who doesn''t 100% support our union. And although R will keep his mouth shut to ME about it, it doesn''t change the fact that he still thinks of us as the bickering, fighting couple he saw once upon a time, and that nothing has changed with us.

Honestly, I think I''d get them together in the same room (possibly trick them if I had to), sit them down, and make them hash everything out, starting by saying that you love both of them very much but because of the weirdness between them, it looks like you''re going to be miserable on your own wedding day, so could they PLEASE for ONCE sit down and talk like adults to figure out the best plan for the wedding since you want them both involved in the wedding because you love them both. I would seriously put my foot down, because *I* wouldn''t want to be resigned to being miserable, or making my future husband miserable, on OUR WEDDING DAY. It''d be nice if everyone compromised, so some sort of common ground could be found, because right now, it''s just up to you to not have what you want and to put up with it, even though (in my opinion) you are being the most adult one out of the three of you.

In your place, I''d be angry with R for being so judgmental about my relationship when everyone knows only the two people inside the relationship know anything about it--I''d be angry he wasn''t just happy for me! And I''d be angry with my FI for being a cranky spoiled brat, guilt-tripping you into thinking you have a choice but telling you that you''ll "ruin" your wedding day if you do what you want to do. Is that how he''s going to handle other problems in the future, just stomp his foot and make you feel badly for wanting something that doesn''t mesh with his wants? Pfft, better hope not. But just in case, I''d suggest you put on some steel-toed boots and kick their rears into gear.

 

[decodelighted]

Honestly, it seems like "R" has a long track record of being inconsiderate & inappropriate at family events. Does he have a drinking problem? I don''t think your FI should have to "s*ck it up" and just deal with the fear that a loose cannon like "R" might embarrass him at his own wedding. You said yourself that "R" has talked about your private lover''s spats in public ... TEASED even ... and danced bawdily ... and OOOF. I''m not sure why YOU want him there if there''s a chance he''ll do the same???

If you are intent on having "R" at the wedding ... or in any sort of official capacity ... could you ask him to abide by a "no drinking" rule, based on his previous bad behavior? Too bad if its not as fun for him -- he clearly isn''t able to stay within the bounds of respectable conduct WHILE drinking.

Or maybe you could ask him to clean up his act around your FI for the next year or more BEFORE the wedding ...developing a new track record of NONobnoxious behavior so your FI won''t have AS MUCH good reason to fear his presence.

 

[surfgirl]

alli, given your reply to my query, I have to agree with deco''s above reply. I can totally understand the "inappropriate friend" dilemma. R sounds a bit OTT and flamboyant in social non-family circumstances and perhaps he enjoys pulling out some of that behavior at family events just to tweak people. If so, it''s juvenile but I can understand why your FI wouldn''t want him front and center, in all the bridal party photos, etc. I think it''s something you should deal with once you set a date though. It IS a sticky situation on one hand, but since you''re really not BFFs with R anymore, I dont see why he simply cant attend as a regular guest. Just make your attendants female and it makes the issue a non issue. If R wants to make it into an issue, then that''s a pretty good indication he''s more interested in him and not what you want on your wedding day.

 

[alli_esq]

Gwendolyn--I might do something like that, and I do have loads of time before I really have to deal with it...I just don''t think either of them care enough about the other to make an effort (sadly, I don''t know if either of them even care enough about ME to get over their animosity...boy, that sounded awful)...

Date: 5/8/2008 3:19:26 PM
Author: decodelighted
Honestly, it seems like ''R'' has a long track record of being inconsiderate & inappropriate at family events. Does he have a drinking problem? I don''t think your FI should have to ''s*ck it up'' and just deal with the fear that a loose cannon like ''R'' might embarrass him at his own wedding. You said yourself that ''R'' has talked about your private lover''s spats in public ... TEASED even ... and danced bawdily ... and OOOF. I''m not sure why YOU want him there if there''s a chance he''ll do the same???


If you are intent on having ''R'' at the wedding ... or in any sort of official capacity ... could you ask him to abide by a ''no drinking'' rule, based on his previous bad behavior? Too bad if its not as fun for him -- he clearly isn''t able to stay within the bounds of respectable conduct WHILE drinking.

Or maybe you could ask him to clean up his act around your FI for the next year or more BEFORE the wedding ...developing a new track record of NONobnoxious behavior so your FI won''t have AS MUCH good reason to fear his presence.

R does drink a lot, but a lot of us do, and I highly doubt he has a "problem"--he''s just a lot more gregarious than FI tends to be... and trust me--it''s not the alcohol that makes him say inappropriate things; that''s just his personality, and acts that way whether or not he''s sober.

R is not NEARLY as "bawdy" as he was 8 years ago at my brother''s bar mitzvah, and now that FI has reprimanded him more than once about talking about inappropriate things, I don''t think he''ll do it anymore around him... but to FI, the damage has been done. He is still so angry about the times R was inappropriate that it doesn''t matter to him if he doesn''t do it anymore.

 

[alli_esq]

thanks for your comments, Surfgirl--I spend wayyyy too much time on this site, and I have to say, you are very insightful, and I appreciate your honesty.

Eh, I''ll just have to deal with this later and focus on other stuff for now. We''ll see what happens in the coming months and hopefully something will change

well, a girl can dream, can''t she?

 

[cara]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:31:55 PM
Author: alli_esq
FI said I could have him in the party--he won''t stop me from it--but he says it will ruin his day and the planning if he knows that someone who is involved is so opposed to our union.

This is an incredibly passive aggressive comment. He''s not taking responsibility for keeping R out of the wedding party - but if you have R in the wedding party it will ruin his wedding day. Of course you woln''t do something that will ruin your future husband''s enjoyment of your wedding day - of course you woln''t do that. But your FI isn''t playing fair here in dealing with issue. He''s putting the decision on you, but in a highly manipulative way such that you are a bad future wife if you go against his wishes.

Similarly, your FI blames R for parts of your personality and your behavior that he doesn''t like. These are parts of you and actions by you that he doesn''t approve of, and instead of attributing them to you he blames R. This is not good. Everyone is familar with the idea that a friend or bad influence brings out certain attributes of a person that otherwise stay hidden - but at some point it is your choice to hang out with R or not, to act a certain way or not. It sounds like you have changed a fair bit over the course of your relationship with FI, and he really wishes you would change even more to the point of abandoning your friendship with R and abandoning those aspects of your personality and past behavior he finds problematic.

You are really the one in a position to judge these people and whether their behavior is adult and reasonable. From here, it sounds like you are dealing with two babies.

The bottom line is, R should only stand up in the wedding if he is able to honestly support his friend in her decision to marry. He doesn''t have to think the marriage is the best match or like the groom - the world is littered with attendants that thought the marriage was a bad idea or didn''t like their friend''s prospective spouse - but he does have to honestly support you and your marriage. And he does have to have a recent history free of hurtful and overly negative comments about your FI and your marriage. (Limited expressions of doubt or disappointment to his sister might be OK, but more hurtful comments to a wider audience are not OK.) If R doesn''t meet this bar, then he shouldn''t be up there, however much it pains you not to have this friend by your side.

But frankly, I''m more worried about the other child in your life, the one you are choosing to marry. I''m not kidding here - do you want to be married to someone so childish? Combined with stubborn? Someone who issues passive-aggressive threats and then tells you he doesn''t want to discuss it anymore? Someone who feels threatened by your flamboyant, inappropriate gay friend and what he brings out in you? If you are ready to leave behind all those aspects of yourself as well as R, then go ahead and marry this guy, but something about how he''s handling it (as well as consistent character traits of men you keep in your life) sets off little alarm bells for me. This is not a good model for future conflict resolution in your marriage.

Hedge: I''m just reading what you have given me here. You really are in the right position to judge how reasonable your FI is being. I guess what I am saying is that you know exactly what "inappropriate" behavior and antagonistic comments R has in his past. Depending on how bad it is, your FI''s feelings might be warranted. But if that is the case, then you probably shouldn''t be friend''s with R either, and that should be the issue rather than this wedding party nonsense.