Fair price? Not sure...

[sed6]

Hello all-
My first post here. Just found the site about a week ago and have read a lot with great interest. Perfect timing too as I''ve just started shopping for an engagement ring for my special lady. I went to a local (very well respected) retailer and was shown a Lazare and Hearts on Fire diamond. The HoF was nice but not worth the 25% increase IMO; the Lazare had just as much ''flash'' So here''s the Lazare I''m considering and welcome opinions on its price or any points I might have failed to consider.

AGS000
Cut-Lazare, round
Color-D
Clarity-SI1
Carat-.877

Dia: 6.18 (6.16-6.20)
Depth: 3.8 61.5%
Table: 3.46 56%
Crown Angle: 34.9 (34.7-35.1)
Pavilion Angle: 40.9 (40.9-41.2)
Culet: 0.6 Very Small
Girdle: 1.29% .81%-1.78%

Price: $6396 +tax

I plugged in the numbers and came up with and HCA of 1.8 (the significance of which I''m still trying to learn). I like the diamond! The D color is a biggie for me; the sales gent laid out a D and E for me to see if I could tell the difference, and without hesitation I picked the D as less colorful. Others I understand don''t care so much about color. The ring has one larger inclusion, 2 medium and 3 small. The large one is hidden at the intersection of 5 facets and as such was hard for me to find with a loupe. Once found I could pick it out with my naked eye but it takes a few seconds. Even so they indicated that its location will likely be completely concealed once mounted. The table has 2 small (tiny actually) "bubble-like" inclusions that I simply couldn''t find on the loupe and had to use a 30x and the AGS "map" to find. I guess what I''m trying to say is I like this diamond. Question is, is the price fair? Fair or not, do retailers typically have haggle room in their pricing? (he already knocked 20% off the "list" price as part of a rainy day promotion)

I appreciate any insight you have to offer. Thanks!

 

[iheartscience]

I don't think it's a fair price...it seems high. I searched Whiteflash.com's inventory of "A Cut Above" AGS000 hearts and arrows stones and found a 1.11ct D SI2 for $6877. Plus, if you pay by wire transfer and mention that you're a member of Pricescope you'll get a discount, I think about 5%. Here's the web address for that one:

http://whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-171976.htm#

They also had quite a few E and F stones around .75 carats starting at $3300. I know that's a bit smaller than the one you're looking at, but the price difference is huge! I would definitely go with Whiteflash.com and get the much larger stone for around the same price!

Also, although you were able to pick between an unmounted D and an E stone, I think it's pretty much guaranteed that your girlfriend and anyone else who looks at such a well cut E or even an F stone will not be able to see anything but bright white!

 

[InlovewithJHK]

I also think you are overpaying. I''d much rather have this:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/587/

 

[iheartscience]

Wow, that''s weird, InLovewithJHK! That is the exact same carat weight, color and clarity as the Whiteflash ACA I linked to! It''s a different stone, though-the measurements and proportions are different (actually the WF one faces up a smide larger). Funny coincidence!

 

[Jelly]

I was kinda surprised by the price until I saw that it was a Lazare diamond. Those branded diamonds come with a price. i''m sure it''s lovely but you can get something comparable with an ACA diamond from whiteflash.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

First, I have a question as to the color but I will save it for later since you have probably made up your mind:

But when you look at these stones and notice that they are SI2 and that that is going to cause a price drop remember that ACA have to be eye clean from the top. In that case it seems no question to me to go with the 1.11 ct and forget about the other diamond.

However, running a search for D SI1's of AGS0 quality doesn't exactly bring up a plethora of options, but it seems you are def being asked for too much. Unfortunately I can not find many really great D color options in the SI1 range at that, but James Allen has this one

.75 with 5.89mm for 3,060. I would say from my searches in the past that the jump from .75 to .8 would be about 800-1000 bucks, and the jump to .87 (not making .9) would be about 500 bucks increase. So lets just say an equivalent stone of .87cts were located at the moment on the PS vendors and lets be very generous with the price increase and say 1700 dollars more than the .75. (which is more than it would actually increase) that would still put you paying 2,000 dollars more after tax than you really should be. That is a whole hell of a lot more to be paying than you should. However, with the LAZARE brand the price would be even higher...so if you want the brand I still say its overpriced, but not TOO bad, but I haven't done much research in brand pricing. 40% increase seems pretty steep though

Thus you could hold out for a little longer and wait for the right stone to show up somewhere at the appropriate lower price or since you have already decided to spend that money I would recommend looking into one of the above or some others you can locate of much larger size but equally as beautiful a cut.

Now, to the color:


I have only met one Jeweler that I have ever trusted in person--though I can vouch for the people at James Allen as well.

So lets look at this jeweler--she had a rainy day sale that allowed her to mark the prices off suddenly 20%. This tells you immediately that she trys her hardest to rip people off...further, her massively discounted prices are still overpriced. You can interpret this on your own I assume. Also, I wonder exactly when she told you about the "discount."

Secondly, do you know who graded the two diamonds you looked at as D and E. I have done alot of research on color and from what I have read on GIA and AGS reports (essay's, etc...) MANY trained/master gemologist can not look at an E/D diamond loose face down and in optimum lighting and determine if it is in fact a D or an E. Most of them, from what I have read, require a master stone sitting in front of them and a good bit of time considering...and some still can't tell a D from an E.
Also, the lighting in the store would certainly not have been optimum grading lighting.


Finally, if you looked at the stones and could immediately tell the difference in the D and E stones, then I wager big money that it was a sh*** E that was an in-house grade and is actually a G or god only knows what. I think she was already tricking you on price, how hard would it be for her to bring out a true D and an "E" and convince you that you really wanted to pay the extra money for a D? Do some more research before you commit too whole heartedly. (I have an E myself, so don't worry, I am not one of those J lunatics roaming the PS site

sorry ladies.)

Finally, an E will absolutely face up exactly the same as a D. Read GIA and AGS reports, and they will tell you themselves, or call them and talk to them like I did, that even the best trained gemologist can not look at a mounted diamond and consistently grade within 2-3 colors or so from the face up position. Also, remember that light that enters from an angle at one side of the pavilion will exit the other side of the pavilion. That means that green trees, blue skys, yellow shirts...all of those colors will constantly be passing through the pavilion side, which is the only way you would POSSIBLY see any color and for a TRUE D to E there is no chance in hell you are going to see it under living conditions. I put my money you are being flumbuxulomboxeld..but maybe I am wrong.

However, if after doing your research you feel you want a D, that I understand, alot of the value in diamonds is sentimental and respect for their natural formation--which means nothing to the appearance of the diamond anyway. So really, do what you need to do to make the diamond valuable--just make sure you get real information, not just from them or from me or anyone else here.

 

[Gypsy]

But if it must be D... either of the 1.11's would be a better choice for the money. They are JUST as well cut and BIGGER! And when people see the ring, SIZE and Sparkle are what they are looking for. So sparkle factor is the same between the Lazare and the GOG and WF... plus with the others you get much more SIZE.

 

[Gypsy]

Just a question about the D versus E thing.

Did he show you two diamonds that were D and E... and EVERYTHING else was the same or similar?

In other words did he show you two LAZARE Stones side by side of about the same size? Or two HOF of the same size?

Or did he show you an unbranded E and a D HOF and Lazare. Cause that''s a big difference.

 

[sed6]

Date: 6/28/2007 12:34:06 AM
Author: Gypsy
Just a question about the D versus E thing.

Did he show you two diamonds that were D and E... and EVERYTHING else was the same or similar?

In other words did he show you two LAZARE Stones side by side of about the same size? Or two HOF of the same size?

Or did he show you an unbranded E and a D HOF and Lazare. Cause that''s a big difference.

Similiar question to the ones above, since yours is last I''ll reply to it. The D was a Lazare SI1 the E was a HOF SI2. He pulled them both from their little paper holders which had a shrunken AGS report on the outside. So yes, both were AGS. In regards to the D vs E, I really do think it was a genuine E. Everything I''ve ever seen with the color chart on it (in store, online, etc) I personally can easily see the diff between the D and E so it would stand to reason I can see it on two diamonds side by side. That''s not to say I''m some super diamond guru (I''M NOT!) but that perhaps my eyeballs are maybe just a little more sensitive to the yellow color.

Also I wouldn''t mind it if one of my 4 C''s was perfect, the best, none better. It''s not going to happen on Clarity, nor Carat, who can really say what the best Cut is...but Color, yeah, I can get the best (and tell the difference)

I appreciate everyones opinion so far. And thanks for the links too. Most all of the SI2''s I''ve seen are too included for my taste, I really want to stick with VS1-SI1.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

well, in particular don't write off the ACA SI2's. I believe Brian from white flash actually looks at each stone and selects them to join the ACA stock, and I am sure the he doesn't select stones that are visibly included or too visually messy.

check out thsi thread on how ACA is selected, it was educational to me anyway, as you will note: thread here

Also,I think for any woman and her friends to get a pretty natural diamond over the 1ct mark would be a significantly greater accomplishment than getting a much smaller branded stone--especially one that is overpriced

. Also, If you have a visible inclusion that is going to be covered by the prong, then there should be a wide variety of SI2's that meet those same conditions. So I would say at LEAST find out more about some SI2 options before disregarding them entirely. But I understand, I refused to drop down to SI1 for my own little purchase.

 

[iheartscience]

I also wouldn''t be quick to write off the SI2s, especially since you said yourself that the SI1 Lazare wasn''t eyeclean.

And if you''re looking for one of your 4 Cs to be "perfect," the most important one, the CUT, will be perfect on a Whiteflash ACA or the Good Old Gold stone-an AGS000 stone is pretty much the best that there is!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Since I am just online and trying to decide on a new cell phone while I look at the diamond website i will put myself back into this thread. I think that when he said that the cut can''t really be perfect he meant that all sorts of different cuts appeal to all sorts of different people. There are scientific ways to maximize brightness, fire, or scintillatoin, and scientific ways to evaluate particular balances of the three but there is not truly a "best" cut, as the preference for how the light interplays with the diamond is really a matter of preference with the viewer--and that is not truly a scientific matter, as is the case with most opinions, though there is a science behind whatever does speak to him if he could establish that.

Nontheless, that being said it means that there is not necessarily a truly universal PERFECT cut. However, there can be approximately zero traces of any elements that would cause for a diamond to have a non-white color, and thus be "perfect" in the color category. Unless of course you liked warmth on a diamond ( in which case finding the proper balance of which elements in the diamond and to what percentage and distribution would create that perfect appeal to you would be the scientific approach to finding the perfect color, thus making it very similar to the idea of the perfect cut, and in which case D wouldn''t be perfect either but I am just being silly about that)

HOwever, if he is looking at HoF and other big name brand diamonds I don''t think we really need to be too concerned with the quality of his cut