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Fact Checking Fiorina & Anti-Abortion Videos

iLander

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Carly Fiorina made headlines saying this about a Planned Parenthood video:

“Anyone who has watched this videotape — I dare Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, to watch these tapes — watch a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking, while someone says, ‘We have to keep it alive to harvest its brain.’ This is about the character of our nation, and if we do not stand up and force President Obama to veto this bill, shame on us.”

Yeah, well, turns out that's BS.

Full article: https://www.yahoo.com/health/fact-checking-carly-fiorinas-debate-statements-on-183132587.html

Excerpts from article:

To date, there have been a total of 10 highly edited videos released by the Center for Medical Progress. Two of the 10 feature footage filmed undercover at a Planned Parenthood affiliate clinic. None of the 10 feature anyone — Planned Parenthood personnel or otherwise — saying, “We have to keep it alive to harvest its brain.”

The video of which Fiorina speaks, however, does not exist.

Fiorina’s impassioned, authoritative argument for the defunding of Planned Parenthood was one of the most notable moments of the three-hour-long debate. It’s too bad, then, that what she chose to say in that moment is false.

Because the bulk of the federal funding received by Planned Parenthood is for Medicaid reimbursement, and no federal funds may be spent on any costs affiliated with abortion care, defunding Planned Parenthood would primarily harm those Americans whose income level qualifies them for Medicaid, and those low-income households who fail to meet Medicaid limits and cannot afford insurance — but can receive preventive health care services, including cancer screenings and contraception, on a sliding scale based on need.


Thanks for the sisterhood, Carly. :rolleyes:

Another article: https://www.yahoo.com/health/undercover-anti-abortion-video-showed-images-of-127289829487.html

Undercover Antiabortion Video Showed Images of Stillborn — Not Aborted — Fetus

On Friday, the Center for Medical Progress (CMP), the antiabortion activist group that has been releasing undercover videos targeting Planned Parenthood, the practice of fetal tissue donation, and later-term abortion, has admitted that images shown in its most recent video of a fetus of approximately 19 weeks gestational age was not taken at a Planned Parenthood affiliate clinic, as heavily implied in the video.

The Center for Medical Progress posted a new link on the video’s YouTube page late Thursday, adding that one of the images was actually of a baby named Walter Fretz, born prematurely at 19 weeks.


This whole issue makes me sad, but I think it's important that we realize people are lying and being manipulative. :sick:
 

kenny

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Lies are bad, even when used for what the liars feel is a good cause.
Fortunately for them many of us just believe whatever we see, especially when what we see is emotionally charged.
Propoganda works.

iLander, thanks for shinning a light on this.
 

chrono

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I was wondering about that video she mentioned too, because the imagery brought to mind by those words are very powerful. I am relieved that no such thing happened. iLander, thank you for fact checking.
 

iLander

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You guys are very welcome. Twenty-two million people watched that debate, and I'm sure most of them will not check. :sick:

Chrono- I, too, was horrified by what she said. But it didn't sound quite right to me, because I thought it would surely that be all over the media. I'm also extremely skeptical by nature. ;-)

Kenny - I'm getting tired of politicians lying to my face, so boldly, and without flinching. :(sad Sadly, both parties seem to do this quite well.

Everyone - I have no interest in discussing abortion (no one's mind will change, in either direction) but I just wanted to point out a lie which used horrifying imagery and emotional manipulation.
 

katharath

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It is VERY important to fact check, especially on such controversial issues. Thank you, iLander.

Carly Fiorina was never going to get my vote anyway, so this just cements my views of her.
 

kenny

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iLander|1442599097|3929268 said:
Kenny - I'm getting tired of politicians lying to my face, so boldly, and without flinching. :(sad Sadly, both parties seem to do this quite well.

Absolutely true!
Power corrupts!
 

Dancing Fire

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As of today I will vote for Rubio.
 

Dancing Fire

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kenny|1442597331|3929257 said:
Lies are bad, even when used for what the liars feel is a good cause.
Fortunately for them many of us just believe whatever we see, especially when what we see is emotionally charged.
Propoganda works.

iLander, thanks for shinning a light on this.
But if you don't lie you can't be a politician... ;))
 

iLander

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Dancing Fire said:
As of today I will vote for Rubio.

Get back to me in few months, DF. It's early days yet. :bigsmile:

Lord knows you have plenty to choose from! :D
 

Snowdrop13

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That's just awful. So manipulative. Why do politicians think they can live by different rules from everyone else? Most of us in normal jobs would be in big trouble if we lied like that while going about our business!
 

Calliecake

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Thank you ILander for posting this thread. I also had a very hard time believing this to be true while watching the debates. I watched a few news programs yesterday hoping fact checkers would shed some light on the topic. I'm sure this story has been played out on Fox News many times. My father has mentioned it on several occasions and Fox is his only news source. I find it incredibly sad that no mention is made of all the wonderful things planned parenthood has done for woman over the years. It has gotten to the point where I would like fact checkers to weigh in on everything politicians say in these debates for both political parties. Carly Fiorina was never going to get my vote but her comments on this subject cemented my feelings.
 

AdaBeta27

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Thanks, ilander. I bounced CMP in the comments section about that video, because I'd seen it (the stillborn) elsewhere on the Internet and know it was old footage not taken recently at Planned Parenthood. The agenda of CMP and the defund-Planned-Parenthood is to outlaw abortion. The CMP videos are possibly not edited as much as some people think, but much of what CMP gloats about being "shocking" is just the standard process involved in performing an abortion and keeping tissue specimens in good condition, and would only shock someone who is naive or has never worked in healthcare or research. I think the media, and even Fox News are starting to weary of CMP and all their repetition and hype. The media are just quietly ignoring much of what CMP continues to serve up. I'm pro-choice. Legal abortion is the law of this land. Religious freedom and separation of church and state exist to give people the right to practice their preferred religion, not to go shoving it down everyone else's throat. I have tired of all the CMP shrills calling Planned Parenthood employees and the women who have abortions "Mengle's disciples," demons, murderers, ghouls, etc. There is no limit to the hatred and venom spewed at PP and at women who have abortions. Just read through the comments on those videos and you'll soon get a picture of the intolerant and impractical people who post there. They griped about the world giving more sympathy to that dead lion Cecil than to the "baby harvesting" and "murder" and "evils" CMP allegedly exposed at Planned Parenthood, including eugenics. Well, I don't see how that eugenics argument even holds any water, considering that the women aborting fetuses are doing so voluntarily. Planned Parenthood isn't clubbing anyone on the head and dragging them into Planned Parenthood for an abortion. PP is providing a legal abortion service that its customers want. The bottom line is that some people want abortion banned entirely, and they intend to force their views onto everyone else. Since I think 0-2 kids are sufficient in today's world, and contraceptives aren't 100% reliable. It makes me mighty uncomfortable to think that zealots might actually succeed in banning abortion after it's been legal for 40 years. Seriously, just what has changed to necessitate banning abortions now? USA is more secular now than back then. Abortionists are under closer scrutiny than ever. Laws in many stated throw hurdle after hurdle into the woman's path, giving her plenty of opportunity to change her mind about aborting. I trust that the people who made abortion legal in this country in the 1970s had lived through a time when it was illegal, and they had valid reasons for ruling in favor of legalizing abortion. None of this wailing and gnashing of teeth over CMP's videos makes any sense to me.
 

iLander

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AdaBeta27 said:
Thanks, ilander. I bounced CMP in the comments section about that video, because I'd seen it (the stillborn) elsewhere on the Internet and know it was old footage not taken recently at Planned Parenthood. The agenda of CMP and the defund-Planned-Parenthood is to outlaw abortion. The CMP videos are possibly not edited as much as some people think, but much of what CMP gloats about being "shocking" is just the standard process involved in performing an abortion and keeping tissue specimens in good condition, and would only shock someone who is naive or has never worked in healthcare or research. I think the media, and even Fox News are starting to weary of CMP and all their repetition and hype. The media are just quietly ignoring much of what CMP continues to serve up. I'm pro-choice. Legal abortion is the law of this land. Religious freedom and separation of church and state exist to give people the right to practice their preferred religion, not to go shoving it down everyone else's throat. I have tired of all the CMP shrills calling Planned Parenthood employees and the women who have abortions "Mengle's disciples," demons, murderers, ghouls, etc. There is no limit to the hatred and venom spewed at PP and at women who have abortions. Just read through the comments on those videos and you'll soon get a picture of the intolerant and impractical people who post there. They griped about the world giving more sympathy to that dead lion Cecil than to the "baby harvesting" and "murder" and "evils" CMP allegedly exposed at Planned Parenthood, including eugenics. Well, I don't see how that eugenics argument even holds any water, considering that the women aborting fetuses are doing so voluntarily. Planned Parenthood isn't clubbing anyone on the head and dragging them into Planned Parenthood for an abortion. PP is providing a legal abortion service that its customers want. The bottom line is that some people want abortion banned entirely, and they intend to force their views onto everyone else. Since I think 0-2 kids are sufficient in today's world, and contraceptives aren't 100% reliable. It makes me mighty uncomfortable to think that zealots might actually succeed in banning abortion after it's been legal for 40 years. Seriously, just what has changed to necessitate banning abortions now? USA is more secular now than back then. Abortionists are under closer scrutiny than ever. Laws in many stated throw hurdle after hurdle into the woman's path, giving her plenty of opportunity to change her mind about aborting. I trust that the people who made abortion legal in this country in the 1970s had lived through a time when it was illegal, and they had valid reasons for ruling in favor of legalizing abortion. None of this wailing and gnashing of teeth over CMP's videos makes any sense to me.

The issues have changed. I mean the issues that the candidates SHOULD be talking about; the economy, taxes, corporate donations/candidate control, crime, education, on and on.

The more candidates Should be talking about something else, the more they bring up abortion as a distraction.

Bread and circuses (google that phrase).

Notice this subject generally only comes up during election season. :rolleyes:
 

azstonie

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Thank you, iLander.

Honestly. No other countries have these 'discussions' when it comes to elections. Just us. Sigh.

Its my uterus---anyone who doesn't like what I do with it can go pound sand.
 

AGBF

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Dancing Fire said that it is a job requirement for politicians to lie. In what I found to be an amusing and sly Op-ed piece, Paul Krugman, in today's issue of, "The New York Times" asserts that the Republicans, in their most recent debate, brought fiction and fantasy to a new level, and also added some outright lies. The outright lies he attributed to Chris Christie and Carly Fiorina. Some of you may enjoy these excerpts. I think they make for a witty read.

Deb/AGBF
:read:

From his Op-Ed Piece:

"I’ve been going over what was said at Wednesday’s Republican debate, and I’m terrified. You should be, too. After all, given the vagaries of elections, there’s a pretty good chance that one of these people will end up in the White House.
...​
And some seem willing to advance their ambitions with outright lies.

Let’s start at the shallow end, with the fantasy economics of the establishment candidates.
...​
The only candidate talking sense about economics was, yes, Donald Trump, who declared that “we’ve had a graduated tax system for many years, so it’s not a socialistic thing.”

If the discussion of economics was alarming, the discussion of foreign policy was practically demented. Almost all the candidates seem to believe that American military strength can shock-and-awe other countries into doing what we want without any need for negotiations, and that we shouldn’t even talk with foreign leaders we don’t like. No dinners for Xi Jinping! And, of course, no deal with Iran, because resorting to force in Iraq went so well.
...​
Indeed, the only candidate who seemed remotely sensible on national security issues was Rand Paul, which is almost as disturbing as the spectacle of Mr. Trump being the only voice of economic reason.
...​
The real revelation on Wednesday, however, was the way some of the candidates went beyond expounding bad analysis and peddling bad history to making outright false assertions, and probably doing so knowingly, which turns those false assertions into what are technically known as “lies.”
...​
For example, Chris Christie asserted, as he did in the first G.O.P. debate, that he was named U.S. attorney the day before 9/11. It’s still not true: His selection for the position wasn’t even announced until December.
...​
Mr. Christie’s mendacity pales, however, in comparison to that of Carly Fiorina, who was widely hailed as the “winner” of the debate.
...​
Some of Mrs. Fiorina’s fibs involved repeating thoroughly debunked claims about her business record. No, she didn’t preside over huge revenue growth. She made Hewlett-Packard bigger by acquiring other companies, mainly Compaq, and that acquisition was a financial disaster. Oh, and if her life is a story of going from “secretary to C.E.O.,” mine is one of going from mailman to columnist and economist. Sorry, working menial jobs while you’re in school doesn’t make your life a Horatio Alger story.

But the truly awesome moment came when she asserted that the videos being used to attack Planned Parenthood show “a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking while someone says we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain.” No, they don’t. Anti-abortion activists have claimed that such things happen, but have produced no evidence, just assertions mingled with stock footage of fetuses.

So is Mrs. Fiorina so deep inside the bubble that she can’t tell the difference between facts and agitprop? Or is she deliberately spreading a lie? And most important, does it matter?

I began writing for The Times during the 2000 election campaign, and what I remember above all from that campaign is the way the conventions of 'evenhanded' reporting allowed then-candidate George W. Bush to make clearly false assertions — about his tax cuts, about Social Security — without paying any price. As I wrote at the time, if Mr. Bush said the earth was flat, we’d see headlines along the lines of 'Shape of the Planet: Both Sides Have a Point.'

Now we have presidential candidates who make Mr. Bush look like Abe Lincoln. But who will tell the people?
"
 

Dancing Fire

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Deb...The only honest politician is Hillary... :wink2:
 

Dancing Fire

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Calliecake|1442603948|3929295 said:
Thank you ILander for posting this thread. I also had a very hard time believing this to be true while watching the debates. I watched a few news programs yesterday hoping fact checkers would shed some light on the topic. I'm sure this story has been played out on Fox News many times. My father has mentioned it on several occasions and Fox is his only news source. I find it incredibly sad that no mention is made of all the wonderful things planned parenthood has done for woman over the years. It has gotten to the point where I would like fact checkers to weigh in on everything politicians say in these debates for both political parties. Carly Fiorina was never going to get my vote but her comments on this subject cemented my feelings.
Is he a conservative??.. :bigsmile:
 

diamondseeker2006

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The truth of the content of the videos is horrible enough without someone making up something that is not true. Although I have not watched all the videos myself to know the accuracy of her statements. I can't bear to see much of it. The videos were edited because there were many, many hours of video. What is shown really happened.

So political threads are allowed now? I might have to stay totally in Rocky Talky for the next year and two months if that is the case!
 

AGBF

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diamondseeker2006|1442629265|3929397 said:
The truth of the content of the videos is horrible enough without someone making up something that is not true. Although I have not watched all the videos myself to know the accuracy of her statements. I can't bear to see much of it. The videos were edited because there were many, many hours of video. What is shown really happened.

So political threads are allowed now? I might have to stay totally in Rocky Talky for the next year and two months if that is the case!

This thread was about a very public act of blatant lying. I would never have started it, since I am one of the most political posters and have to confine my threads to ATW. But some posters, those who aren't always posting about politics, should be able to post about lying. If you Google "Fiorina lying" you will get this story.

As to whether you must remain in Rocky Talky.... You posted your opinion first before saying you might have to retire from the lists.

Also: even if one can trust a video as not being doctored-and I don't-Fiorina didn't say that "what is shown really happened". She claims to have seen a video no one else on earth can FIND. She claims to have seen something that NEVER HAPPENED.

AGBF
 

House Cat

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This is upsetting on so many levels. The material these people had, without adding lies, would have been disturbing enough. Why did then feel the need to embellish?

People who already hate abortion would have hated it more with the undoctored material just fine.


What it did for me, a person who is pro-choice, but doesn't really like abortion all that much. When I first saw the videos, I was horrified and disgusted. I knew about donating the organs before these videos and wondered why more people didn't. These videos DID put me on the fence of pro-life and pro-choice. Now that I know that these videos are peppered with lies, I'm done. Credibility is lost. I'm back in my camp of pro-choice.
 

iLander

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Deb: the fact that Christie also blatantly lied during the debate also scares me. He obviously knew exactly when he was made US Attorney. Yet he lied. Someone that lies with such little regard for the facts is usually a sociopath. Is that what we have running these days? Lying sociopaths?

Housecat: The part that really made me mad about Fiorina's LIE (call it what it is) is that it made all the Pro-Choice people, by association, out to be heartless ghouls. That's just not who we are, and to paint us as such is a slap in the face.

Diamondseeker: About the lying of the candidate; your view seems to be that her statement was "close enough" to the truth. Or that if her lie serves a purpose that you believe in, it's okay. That was exactly what the problem was with the "Weapons of mass destruction" lie and the war that resulted from it. Those that wanted Hussein out (and access to the largest untapped oil fields in the world) felt the end justified the means. Are hideous lies okay if they serve a cause?

On the videos, please understand that they are 11 hours of people talking, with footage of fetuses that were not taken in the Planned Parenthood offices. It's stock footage. Some of that footage was stolen. I am especially sad to understand that the video of a stillborn child was used so grotesquely without the mother's permission. Do the ends justify that means? Is "whatever it takes" okay?

The image shown while O’Donnell describes the fetus she saw and worked with was not a recently aborted fetus from any Planned Parenthood affiliate clinic, but rather an image of the stillborn Walter, a preterm fetus delivered two years ago by a Pennsylvania woman and used without her permission. The woman whose fetus is shown in the video believes that the Center for Medical Progress’s use of the image is illegal, though she does not plan to pursue any legal action.
(from the second article I linked to)
 

Laila619

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iLander|1442676454|3929501 said:
Someone that lies with such little regard for the facts is usually a sociopath. Is that what we have running these days? Lying sociopaths?

Yeah, I can't believe Hillary is running either!
 

AGBF

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Laila619|1442679765|3929520 said:
iLander|1442676454|3929501 said:
Someone that lies with such little regard for the facts is usually a sociopath. Is that what we have running these days? Lying sociopaths?

Yeah, I can't believe Hillary is running either!

You made me smile. :wavey:

Deb
 

azstonie

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Was it Al Franken who wrote:Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them????

(Sorry I got off topic before.)
 

NonieMarie

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iLander, thank you for the link. I am so sick of the edited videos and blatant lies. I did feel uncomfortable with the casual way the PP Dr acted but the video was heavily edited and it is her job, she has become unemotional over time.

"edit" I just read a few articles connected to iLander's link. If people want to get on the PP bashing bandwagon, they should take the time to educate themselves to the history of fetal tissue and the regulations that are part of its procuring.
 
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