Extra tipping and/or gifts for service professionals

[Steel]

I realise this is a HOT topic and hope that my comments can be taken without offence...

I live in Ireland where we have a minimum wage - this is currently €8.65 an hour. The lower rate of tax here is 20% up to about 40k, I do not remember the thresholds.

So if I understand the ''requirement'' to tip, the cost of services in the US must be significantly lower than the cost here. I say this based on the fact that if employees are paid such a pittance then the business overheads and final consumer cost must be lower. Unless there is some factor I am not considering such as crazy corporate rates, commercial rents etc.

I pay €45-55 max for a hair cut (wash, cut/re-style, blow-dry). No tip required. This is done in one of the major cities in the country by Peter Mark which is a leading brand.

How much do you pay for yours?

I calculate that as this takes 1.5 - 2hrs max if you factor wages OUT of that price the cost is about €28.00-37.00.

I mention all of this as I wonder if SOMEBODY isn''t taking advantage here. I have the view that the employer should charge an amount suitable to cover costs. If the employee is not being paid sufficiently then why take the job. Isn''t is a self perpetuating system? If employees work for a pittance expecting the paying customer to fork out more money then why should the employer change? (I understand that bills have to be paid and am speaking in very broad terms here).

Would a lawyer work for $2 an hour and expect a tip from the Client at the end of the case? Does a doctor in the A&E expect a tip for saving your life? Do you tip the librarian who reserves a book for you? How about the lollipop lady who helps your kid cross the road?

Tipping for genuine good service is a whole different kettle of fish. I accept and encourage that but surely a simple Thank you for a job well done is also sufficient? Why should good service be reserved for more affluent customers who can afford to tip and tip well?

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 12/19/2008 5:05:09 PM
Author: Steel

Would a lawyer work for $2 an hour and expect a tip from the Client at the end of the case? Does a doctor in the A&E expect a tip for saving your life? Do you tip the librarian who reserves a book for you? How about the lollipop lady who helps your kid cross the road?

Tipping for genuine good service is a whole different kettle of fish. I accept and encourage that but surely a simple Thank you for a job well done is also sufficient? Why should good service be reserved for more affluent customers who can afford to tip and tip well?

Oh, the lolipop lady practically is asking for a tip. Here in the US we have mall food courts where junky food sitting under heat laps is sold. Next to almost every cash registers sits a styrofoam cup where customers can give tips to a person who spoons MSG filled fried rice onto a plate for you!

Novemberbride - I think it''s absolutely ludicrous that my friend shouldn''t get a professional haircut just because she cannot afford a tip. It''s such high expections such as that which makes some of us sickened by the notion that all service people deserve a 20% tip. Does this mean that unless a person is at least middle-class they should be treated like a peasant and not permitted to entire the prestine facility of glamorous Supercuts? Luxury? Give me a break.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 12/19/2008 5:05:09 PM
Author: Steel
I realise this is a HOT topic and hope that my comments can be taken without offence...

Oh, and what more can one ask for but hot topics when being snowed in for three days now?! lol

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 12/19/2008 5:05:09 PM
Author: Steel
I mention all of this as I wonder if SOMEBODY isn''t taking advantage here. I have the view that the employer should charge an amount suitable to cover costs. If the employee is not being paid sufficiently then why take the job. Isn''t is a self perpetuating system? If employees work for a pittance expecting the paying customer to fork out more money then why should the employer change? (I understand that bills have to be paid and am speaking in very broad terms here).

Would a lawyer work for $2 an hour and expect a tip from the Client at the end of the case? Does a doctor in the A&E expect a tip for saving your life? Do you tip the librarian who reserves a book for you? How about the lollipop lady who helps your kid cross the road?

Tipping for genuine good service is a whole different kettle of fish. I accept and encourage that but surely a simple Thank you for a job well done is also sufficient? Why should good service be reserved for more affluent customers who can afford to tip and tip well?

sorry for three posts here. I cannot ad quotes when I edit.

You said my exact point, Steel. A person should NOT take a job if they''re so depend upon tips that without those, they''d end up with $0 paychecks. Customers are often taken advantage of. Like I mentioned before, I''ve given 20% tips on haircuts and gotten home, looked in the mirror, and realized that the hair dresser cut my hair so uneven I had to go back in and have it fixed by a manager who appologized profusely because she knew I''d never be going back to that salon again. If I remember correctly, I paid about $50 for a crappy haircut and gave the gal a generous tip. That makes me feel "burned," you know?

FWIW, times when I give great tips are like when DH and I are in a bar and the bar man gives my DH well made strong drinks. A superb Long Island Ice Tea deserves a 20%. As I mentioned in the previous post about the mall food court, a server pouring Diet Coke into a plastic cup does not.

 

[honey22]

Thank God we don''t have tipping here in Australia - the system sucks!!!!! It''s the employers way of tight-arsing out of paying their employees proper rates and it''s disgusting.

What''s even more disgusting is reading some of the attitutes here, that you won''t get as good service if you don''t tip, I don''t care whether that''s what happens, it''s a cop-out! You should give the same level of service, if the customer appreciates your efforts, then they should tip you. You should''t do a half-arse job just because the customer doesn''t pander to you and gives you more cash!

And to suggest that having your hair-cut is a luxury. Seriously! That attitude just stinks. Maybe the poor chick with MS can get someone at her support group to cut her hair for her?

What about getting rid of the whole system, and just pay people fairly in the first place - it would stop all this crap!

 

[Elmorton]

Totally agreed with the other posters - tipping in the US is totally weird - but I think not participating in that system is pretty cruel.

Servers at restaurants receive a ridiculous wage (last I checked, something like $4 an hour, and to put it in perspective, where I live, the average server probably pays $500 in rent per month and may be paying for tuition at college, paying for a child etc - I cringe when I think of people trying to live in large metro areas) - and so they live on tips. The system is crazy - yes, an employer should pay a person what they actually earn. But, as an American consumer, the important thing is to tip.

Now - here''s where I start having to have big issues: DH and I mostly go to inexpensive restaurants to eat out because that''s what we like (Mexican is hands down my favorite food - and our neighborhood place is about $20 for both of us, typically that''s after the tip) and I get my hair cut at the J.C.Penney in the mall. So I have a really hard time coughing up a tip when I go to a spa where a haircut is $85 or for a dinner that runs $150 unless the quality of service truly is 3-4x higher quality (which, maybe I just have bad experiences, but I think my $20 haircuts have been much, much better than my $100 ones). But, if I choose a more expensive location, I tip the appropriate percentage, because that''s the expectation and I know that''s the expectation and I don''t want to be rude, but always in the back of my mind, I''m irritated - not by the server or person performing the service, but by the blatant inflation that the company/owner is getting away with. To me, it''s almost like this weird American caste system - a server at Olive Garden probably puts up with more crud in one night and will make half the $ in tips than the server at the place downtown that doesn''t have prices on the menu. Is that fair? Is it fair that I pay so much more for what amounts to the same service? I also see the flip side - one of my mentors once mentioned that she doesn''t drink and eats like a bird, so her tab is usually less expensive than what typical patrons usually spend, so she tips her server for the total of what an average meal at the establishment costs. I think that''s very classy.

But, in defense of servers - I''d say a good 60% of my students are employed as servers, so I get a pretty good first-hand narrative about their working conditions, and I can''t imagine ever, ever stiffing the server (unless the service was completely non-existent or something absolutely egregious happened). In response to the "you have choices of where you work" argument, I greet that with major eye rolling. In the jobs where people work part-time for no benefits, there is rampant abuse of employees, a huge applicant base, and limited jobs. "Choice" is a relative term.

In terms of who we tip - yupp, it is weird that some Americans just do their jobs without expectation of any added bonus, but there is reason to whom we tip and why. No, we don''t tip the mechanic typically, but the mechanic doesn''t get paid less than minimum wage. We don''t tip our cashier at the store, but the cashier doesn''t have to pay rent to the store owner for his cashier station. Some delivery drivers are paid for gas, some aren''t (and if you don''t own a home, good luck getting a tax break that means anything), so we tip them.

And my husband and I are also tipping our newspaper deliverer this year just because she manages to get our paper to the door every morning at 4:30, which is a feat that none of our other deliverers have ever accomplished

 

[pennquaker09]

Hmm, I am surprised at the tone in the thread, but I have to say I understand where everyone is coming from.

I kind of think Italiahaircolor is right. People that tip get better service. Honestly, I don''t trust just anyone on my head. Since I''ve been going to Frederic Feakki (just his salon, cause I would get in trouble if I paid 750 JUST for a cut), I notice that my color lasts longer and the cut is much better. Obviously, these are highly trained people so I generally always tip over 20%.

And then at restaurants, even if I get horrible service, I tip anyway.

 

[Deelight]

Date: 12/26/2008 11:40:06 PM
Author: honey22
Thank God we don''t have tipping here in Australia - the system sucks!!!!! It''s the employers way of tight-arsing out of paying their employees proper rates and it''s disgusting.


What''s even more disgusting is reading some of the attitutes here, that you won''t get as good service if you don''t tip, I don''t care whether that''s what happens, it''s a cop-out! You should give the same level of service, if the customer appreciates your efforts, then they should tip you. You should''t do a half-arse job just because the customer doesn''t pander to you and gives you more cash!


And to suggest that having your hair-cut is a luxury. Seriously! That attitude just stinks. Maybe the poor chick with MS can get someone at her support group to cut her hair for her?

What about getting rid of the whole system, and just pay people fairly in the first place - it would stop all this crap!

Ditto

While FI and I had a heap of fun while in the big apple that''s one thing we couldn''t stand - tipping. I hated going to a restaurant and eating a crap meal (that was not that any cheaper then I would pay for a good meal out here) with crap service and getting the expected tip added in for me, and not getting change after already having a tip calculated for me in the bill!!!!.

Here we have a system where like Honey said people get paid a fair wage to begin with and if you want to tip you can and usually because the person deserves it not because it is expected.

 

[elle_chris]

Since tipping is part of the culture in the states (due to ridiculous low wages of service staff- that by the way, get taxed which means they''re making nothing), I don''t see why anyone would have a problem with it. This is how they make their living. I don''t think it''s about loving, or hating it, just accepting that''s how things are here.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 12/27/2008 10:55:58 AM
Author: elle_chris
Since tipping is part of the culture in the states (due to ridiculous low wages of service staff- that by the way, get taxed which means they're making nothing), I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. This is how they make their living. I don't think it's about loving, or hating it, just accepting that's how things are here.

Big ditto, Elle.

And, why punish the service employee when it's the system that's flawed? In the US, we should pay workers a living wage to begin with.

"Nickel and Dimed"--a book by Barbara Ehrenreich--presents a great illustration of what the US minimum wage actually represents--i.e. the minimum wage does not equal a living wage.

 

[Steel]

I understand that tipping is a concept that I probably will not ever ''get'' - it is not part of my everyday life but even when I factor that in I cannot agree with this:

Date: 12/27/2008 2:53:52 AM
Author: pennquaker09
And then at restaurants, even if I get horrible service, I tip anyway.

Perhaps it is because it is called a ''tip'' and to me that is only ever given when the customer is super happy with the job done; the employee has gone over and above in performance of their duties and the customer appreciates it so much they feel the need to show their appreciation in monetary terms.

I may never understand this

.

 

[LuckyTexan]

I am a ridiculously good tipper. I have worked as a barista at Starbucks, a delivery driver for Domino''s Pizza, and both a cocktail waitress and bartender... I know what it''s like, and if someone does a good job, they get a great tip!

I have been known to tell my server at a restaurant that my glass will determine their tip and see what they do!!!

Hairdresser.... hmmm... last time I went (about 2 months ago) I tipped her about 30%... If I had gone right before Christmas... I''m not sure what I would have done.

I gave my USP and USPS men both Christmas Cards with $50 giftcards in them... I have a small business and they come to my door everyday!

 

[LuckyTexan]

Date: 12/27/2008 10:55:58 AM
Author: elle_chris
Since tipping is part of the culture in the states (due to ridiculous low wages of service staff- that by the way, get taxed which means they''re making nothing), I don''t see why anyone would have a problem with it. This is how they make their living. I don''t think it''s about loving, or hating it, just accepting that''s how things are here.

I agree with this... to a point... one thing about our ''system'' that drives me NUTS is the automatic gratuity if you have a party of 7 or more. This ALWAYS ends up getting us the WORST service in America!

THEY KNOW they are getting a tip NO MATTER WHAT!

HATE THAT!

 

[that_someone_special]

Date: 12/27/2008 10:55:58 AM
Author: elle_chris
Since tipping is part of the culture in the states (due to ridiculous low wages of service staff- that by the way, get taxed which means they''re making nothing), I don''t see why anyone would have a problem with it. This is how they make their living. I don''t think it''s about loving, or hating it, just accepting that''s how things are here.

The only problem I have with it is when they expect a tip just for barely doing their job. If they can''t live off of it, then get another job, or quit. Seriously! Why live paycheck to paycheck anyways??

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 12/27/2008 6:00:52 PM
Author: swedish bean

Date: 12/27/2008 10:55:58 AM

Author: elle_chris

Since tipping is part of the culture in the states (due to ridiculous low wages of service staff- that by the way, get taxed which means they're making nothing), I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. This is how they make their living. I don't think it's about loving, or hating it, just accepting that's how things are here.

The only problem I have with it is when they expect a tip just for barely doing their job. If they can't live off of it, then get another job, or quit. Seriously! Why live paycheck to paycheck anyways??

Huh? "Why live paycheck to paycheck?" Really? Great point-I guess all these silly paycheck to paycheck workers should just quit their jobs! That should solve everything!

Ever think some people have no choice but to live paycheck to paycheck? Ever think they probably can't find a better job because of lack of experience and/or education? Or that they can't afford college on their wages or get a good financial aid package to help them?

This thread is beyond ridiculous. If you don't like tipping, maybe you should do something about the system that perpetuates it. (And this is the collective "you.") Have any of the people who hate tipping actually tried to get a living wage enacted in their area? Probably not. Our economy is set up this way.

While I'm certainly not someone who tips the person at the fast food counter, I tip well when it is customary to tip. And sometimes I throw a buck in the cup at the fast food counter, too. I don't miss it and if it helps someone making $7 an hour pay some bills or buy beer, great!

 

[coatimundi_org]

Well said Thing2!

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 12/27/2008 10:13:08 PM
Author: coatimundi
Well said Thing2!

Ditto.

When I read your post SwedishBean I went

but thought maybe what you said, and what you were trying to get across are different things?

 

[CJ2008]

I don't have a problem with tipping in general - but 1. I no longer tip 20% if I get horrible service - I used to do that (my dad and uncle were waiters for years and years), but no more - depending on how horrible the service is, I will leave between 15% and 18%. And in extenuating circumstances, if the person is insulting in any way, etc., then I will consider leaving nothing, which at one time I would have never dreamed of doing. HOWEVER - I always let the waiter know why he did not get the full tip from me - because I feel that's the fair way to do it, and maybe they'll learn something if they want to. I think that to leave a bad tip and not let them know why doesn't help anybody - I always think they may not be aware of the things they're doing wrong, or that they're coming off rude or whatever. Just last night, we went to an Indian restaurant, where the server was rude, pushy, and couldn't even bother answering any of our questions. At one point I even asked what time the kitchen closed because I thought maybe that's why he was rushing us (it wasn't - we had plenty of time). So he did not get 20%, but somewhere around 17%-18%. Most of the time, I put myself in their shoes and "remember" that waitering is hard work and I appreciate them going back and forth and serving me. 2. What I think bothers me about the xmas/holidays thing is that if I've been tipping you appropriately all year-round, sometimes even more than 20%, then anything for xmas is way above and beyond if I want to, shouldn't be expected, and it's a little unfair for the hairdresser or manicurist to hold it against the customer (even though I realize that's human nature, and that's how it works).

 

[purselover]

Date: 12/27/2008 6:00:52 PM
Author: swedish bean

Date: 12/27/2008 10:55:58 AM

Author: elle_chris

Since tipping is part of the culture in the states (due to ridiculous low wages of service staff- that by the way, get taxed which means they''re making nothing), I don''t see why anyone would have a problem with it. This is how they make their living. I don''t think it''s about loving, or hating it, just accepting that''s how things are here.

The only problem I have with it is when they expect a tip just for barely doing their job. If they can''t live off of it, then get another job, or quit. Seriously! Why live paycheck to paycheck anyways??

Just out of curiosity what other job do you expect a waiter to get? Many waiters/waitresses are students who need the flexibility of the service industry, or people who do not have a college degree, or possibly even a high school degree. I don''t think anyone aspires to live paycheck to paycheck, not everyone is as lucky as I was and had their college degree paid for by their parents, and even though I do have a college degree right now I''m living slightly better than paycheck to paycheck why you ask?? b/c SO is in law school full time. Should he not have gone back to school so we wouldn''t have to be temporarily poor? You never know people''s circumstances, maybe that waiter is in law school bettering themselves but is temporarily in a poor paying job, and that is why even though we don''t have a ton of money we always tip extremely well.

 

[that_someone_special]

Date: 12/27/2008 10:18:59 PM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 12/27/2008 10:13:08 PM
Author: coatimundi
Well said Thing2!

Ditto.

When I read your post SwedishBean I went

but thought maybe what you said, and what you were trying to get across are different things?

Hmm..

Ok, let''s say a dinner costs $10 total. You have a cranky waitress, she forgets your food, puts your order in wrong, doesn''t bring you refills.
What kind of tip would you leave?

Now, the next dinner is also $10. You have a nice waitress, she''s friendly, smiles, gets your food right, and refills your drink.
How much do you tip?


If I were to tip person 1 the same or close to the same as person 2, then it''s like rewarding bad service. Not to mention it''s almost insulting to person two.
ALSO, I am SO understanding about issues such as the place being busy, breaks, shortage of staff. I understand stuff happens and it''s NOT the servers fault. I''m talking about when it''s 100% their fault. That''s it.

My answers? I''d tip person 1 $2, and person 2 $4-$5-$6.

But I won''t feel quilty not tipping person 1, the same as 2. Does that make anymore sense?

 

[that_someone_special]

Date: 12/28/2008 4:31:31 PM
Author: thing2of2


'A little snooty for just an opinion'? What does that mean? You made a ridiculous statement and I responded...not sure how that's snooty. You obviously just don't get it so I'm not going to waste my time expanding, but I will say this-you're wrong!

Yeah. Again. It's MY OPINION ON HOW I WANT TO SPEND MY MONEY. If you can't understand that concept, I'd really say... the same. You made this personal. I was just responding in this forum. But maybe we should all have the same opinion. Would you perfer that?

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 12/28/2008 4:34:11 PM
Author: swedish bean

Date: 12/28/2008 4:31:31 PM

Author: thing2of2
''A little snooty for just an opinion''? What does that mean? You made a ridiculous statement and I responded...not sure how that''s snooty. You obviously just don''t get it so I''m not going to waste my time expanding, but I will say this-you''re wrong!

Yeah. Again. It''s MY OPINION ON HOW I WANT TO SPEND MY MONEY. If you can''t understand that concept, I''d really say... the same. You made this personal. I was just responding in this forum. But maybe we should all have the same opinion. Would you perfer that?

I didn''t make anything personal, unless you count quoting you and responding with a different opinion "making it personal." I just think you''re dead wrong in your "Just quit and get a good job, dummy!" advice to people living paycheck to paycheck. If it were that easy, no one would be living paycheck to paycheck and everyone would be making 6 figure salaries.

 

[that_someone_special]

Fair enough. However, I personally wouldn''t get a job that I know I couldn''t support myself with. Now, if I got a job as a server (and I never would) and I had to live paycheck to paycheck, that would suck. But, I wouldn''t be a crabby jerk to my customers and this is just me, but I would do my job and what is expect of me as a server.

You don''t see an ounce of what I am saying to be true? That bad service should be tipped differently than good service (basically).

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 12/28/2008 4:49:33 PM
Author: swedish bean
Fair enough. However, I personally wouldn''t get a job that I know I couldn''t support myself with. Now, if I got a job as a server (and I never would) and I had to live paycheck to paycheck, that would suck. But, I wouldn''t be a crabby jerk to my customers and this is just me, but I would do my job and what is expect of me as a server.

You don''t see an ounce of what I am saying to be true? That bad service should be tipped differently than good service (basically).

Yes, but you probably have the skills/education/experience necessary to not have to get a job you couldn''t support yourself with. Not everyone is that lucky and that''s my point.

Of course I think bad service should be tipped differently than good service...but I still tip, no matter what, and it doesn''t bother me at all to tip. That''s the way our system is set up, so that''s what I do.

 

[Bliss]

I'm a huuuuge sucker.

I figure if I'm begrudging a 20% or more tip on a service, then I have no business going to eat at a certain place or getting a certain kind of service...crappy service or not. In my mind, some of these people have tough lives and it's probably really hard to be cheerful all the time when they're juggling tons of things and dealing with a lot in their personal lives. That's just me.

Anyway, I have found in my life that the more I give, the more I get back in other ways. But I do understand the crappy service thing can be truly frustrating... There's nothing worse than having a meal ruined.

 

[CJ2008]

Well, I think it should work both ways.

If I'm having a bad day, is it OK for me to take it out on the waiter, and be rude? I don't think so. And that's whether I make 15K a year or 115K per year. It isn't the waiter's fault if I'm having a bad day or just got into an argument with someone. I think basic courtesy is to be expected both ways. And if you're in any industry where you deal with people, you need to be courteous. You don't have to have a huge smile on your face, or make me laugh - you don't even have to be a "good" waiter, it's OK if you don't fill my glass as quick as I'd like or you don't know the night's specials - but don't be rude. That is what crosses the line for me.

 

[that_someone_special]

Date: 12/28/2008 5:00:02 PM
Author: thing2of2

Yes, but you probably have the skills/education/experience necessary to not have to get a job you couldn''t support yourself with. Not everyone is that lucky and that''s my point.

Of course I think bad service should be tipped differently than good service...but I still tip, no matter what, and it doesn''t bother me at all to tip. That''s the way our system is set up, so that''s what I do.

And I don''t see my skills/ education/ experience as luck-- I see it as a result of my hard work.

In life, there are many things people can take from you, but one thing they can''t take from you is your mind, and your knowledge.

 

[that_someone_special]

Date: 12/28/2008 5:35:48 PM
Author: CJ2008
Well, I think it should work both ways.

If I''m having a bad day, is it OK for me to take it out on the waiter, and be rude? I don''t think so. And that''s whether I make 15K a year or 115K per year. It isn''t the waiter''s fault if I''m having a bad day or just got into an argument with someone. I think basic courtesy is to be expected both ways. And if you''re in any industry where you deal with people, you need to be courteous. You don''t have to have a huge smile on your face, or make me laugh - you don''t even have to be a ''good'' waiter, it''s OK if you don''t fill my glass as quick as I''d like or you don''t know the night''s specials - but don''t be rude. That is what crosses the line for me.

I agree!! It absolutely works both ways. I don''t take my problems out on others, so that''s why I''m so offended when servers do..

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 12/28/2008 5:52:31 PM
Author: swedish bean

Date: 12/28/2008 5:00:02 PM

Author: thing2of2

Yes, but you probably have the skills/education/experience necessary to not have to get a job you couldn''t support yourself with. Not everyone is that lucky and that''s my point.

Of course I think bad service should be tipped differently than good service...but I still tip, no matter what, and it doesn''t bother me at all to tip. That''s the way our system is set up, so that''s what I do.

And I don''t see my skills/ education/ experience as luck-- I see it as a result of my hard work.

In life, there are many things people can take from you, but one thing they can''t take from you is your mind, and your knowledge.

I didn''t say your skills/education/experience were a result of luck, now did I? I just said not everyone is lucky enough to have skills/experience/education, whether it''s a result of family support, hard work, or just plain dumb luck.

But hey, with a sage maxim like your last line, I''m not sure why anyone has a crappy job! Be sure to tell that to every crappy waiter you come across.

 

[Kaleigh]

You guys should read the book:

Waiter Rant,
Thanks for the tip, confessions of a cynical waiter.

It's an eye opener!!

DD says I tip too much, but hey I see these people working so hard. So can't resist.