Experts please weigh in: jeweler says

[Rosa]

Hi everyone,

I would love some expert advice. A shop on 47th St. with a good reputation and online presence had a bracelet that I really liked. It was 18kt white gold, approximately 6 cts. diamonds F & G color, VS & SI. I saw it a few months ago and have been meaning to take another look. It was a fashion bracelet - lots of small baguette and round melee set clustered together and was very pretty. It was advertised as "handcrafted" and the salesperson when justifying the price told me how much labor it takes to set so many stones by hand. It was also suggested to me when I first saw it that the bracelet was made in Europe - I can''t remember the exact comment since it has been a few months but something about how prices have gone up on everything b/c of the weakness of the dollar against the Euro, and their stock comes from Europe...

I thought their price was a high compared to other bracelets that were very similar at other booths along the street, however, I really liked the particular style so this week I had it sent to an appraiser listed here on Pricescope.

The appraiser said it was it was produced via injection molding - a mass production technique. He also thought the stone were machine set, not hand set. I had noticed myself upon very close inspection at the booth that one or two of the baguettes were a little bit crooked which bothered me, but wasn''t sure if that was just to be expected. He thought, no, that was rather unacceptable, and it was good that I noticed it. Based on the hallmark, he thought it was Asian manufacture, not European.

Now, here is the thing - I don''t mind something mass-produced in that modern mass production techniques are probably the only way that most "luxuries" are even remotely affordable to me. I''m also fine with Asian manufacture. What bothers me is that the shop was calling it "handcrafted" and "European" and charging more for it because of that.

I returned to the jewelry booth to just to say, "Thanks for sending it to the independent appraiser" the seller asked me what I wanted to do and I said, "I think it is very pretty but I don''t think it is for me." I was ready to leave it at that, but the seller pushed for information so I thought, why not tell them the truth? Anyway, the salesperson insisted that the appraiser was wrong, that it is handmade, and the labor was very intensive, and that the appraiser must have forgotten to take into account the value of the gold in the bracelet, etc. , and insisted that the appraiser was mistaken, it was made in Europe, from a wax cast. Then, a 10% price cut was offered to me, but frankly, that was not enough to make a difference, given that it would still be MORE expensive than the first-quoted retail prices of similar bracelets at other 47th St. booths.

I''m not going to buy that bracelet, but the salesperson was SO INSISTENT that the appraiser was wrong , so I thought the Pricescope community could help clear it up.

Experts: How hard or easy is it to distinguish these characteristics? i.e. is there ANY chance injection molding and wax casting techniques would be indistinguishable? What about the hallmarks? And, I''m really curious, what does "hand made" and "hand crafted" mean in the jewelry world? I imagine lots of things are made by machine and finished by hand, but when something is advertised with those terms, is there a standard amongst jewelers?

Thank you all in advance!!!

 

[JulieN]

in plastic, it''s easy to see when something is injection mold made. I work in optical, and you learn what to look for in frames. I guess waxes are poured by hand? I think something like that would be easy to see.

I''m not sure about machine-set vs hand set, but I again think it would be easy to see if you know what to look for.

There''s no standard for hand-made.

 

[HariSeldon]

not sure if jewlery injection molding is different than other industries but im and engineer and theres def tell tale signs if a part has been injection molded, forged, cast or machined.

 

[jewelerman]

The question "why do you say that" needs to be asked...a person can give their opinion all they want but to educate the customer they need to back it up with substance...why does the jeweler insist that its made a certain way?How about the appraiser?This question is an important one for our forum to learn from as jewelry is purchased.The price of a piece has so many factors beyond the quailty of gem stones.When a statement is made by a jeweler it need to be backed up with information that the customer can research.Each statement that can be varified will bring a consumer closer to being able to trust that jeweler and be comfortable enough to know that the statements are lagitimate and truthful.The term handmade is thrown around alot in the trade as a selling statement.In the jewelry and watch trade the term can be used if the piece in question has had at least 50%of its manufacture done by hand rather then by machine.This statement can be backed up by the G.I.A. in their training manuals. Terms like hand set,hand polished,hand finished,or hand crafted will bring different responces...so study and read about these terms before purchasing.Thanks for the good question.

 

[elmo]

Probably something your appraiser could help show you examples of. Just like metal content, use of the term handmade is strictly regulated by FTC though, from http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel-gd.shtm where it says:

---

§ 23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

Note to paragraph (a): As used herein, "raw materials" include bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items that have not been cut, shaped, or formed into jewelry parts, semi-finished parts, or blanks.

(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.

---

I'm not sure where the term handcrafted falls under this guideline. As a consumer I think it would be better if taken as the equivalent of handmade (at least "by implication"), but I'm not sure if this is some sort of loophole. Handmade and fabricated are the terms I use when asking somebody whether a piece was made from "bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items" vs. cast.

 

[sparxs111]

Lets put it this way. When there are two conflicting stories and YOU are still torn, be wary. The best thing would be to send it to ANOTHER appraiser if you are still interested in it. It will be hard for PSers to help without seeing the piece. But in my opinion, the appraiser had nothing to gain by his answer. YOu are the customer with ALL the control, so don''t let someone talk you into something that you may not want to do. Certain sales people are great for that. Just be carefl, and again, if you still want it take it to another appraiser that YOU find, not that they recommend. GOOD LUCK!!

 

[denverappraiser]

If you haven’t already done so, the first person to talk to is your appraiser.

They aren’t as far apart as you might think. They don’t injection mold gold, they are injection molding plastic into a metal mold and then casting with that. This is as opposed to injecting wax into a plastic mold prior to casting. In general, metal molds with plastic produces better results in the final casting but the tooling costs are higher so the makers will only do this if they expect to have a fairly large production run. In short, both are saying that the pieces are cast, both are saying that it was mass produced and the appraisers method I would count as actually better. Modern injection wax has far more in common with plastic than candle wax by the way.

Obviously the ethnicity of the craftsman is both undetectable and irrelevant. Even if the hallmark is in Chinese or Russian it may be made by someone elsewhere who simply chose that mark for whatever reason. There are good craftsmen in Asia, crappy craftsmen in Europe and visa versa. If you can’t identify the makers mark, there’s nothing European or Asian about a piece of metal or stone to be detected. I would not recommend paying a premium for unprovable provenance no matter where you are hoping it was made.

Even the difference between machine setting and hand setting is a difficult line. ‘Hand’ setters use motorized equipment to cut the seats and shape the prongs and channels and I guess you get to decide if that means it’s set by hand or machine. I know of no robotic type equipment that can set baguettes without the control of a skilled human worker so I’m not sure what the appraiser means by ‘machine set’. Ask ‘em. A lot of the mass production work has the stones set in the wax/plastic and then the metal is cast around it but even this is done by hand.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I love that practical experience you''ve got, Neil.

I always learn a thing or two from your posts.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 9/4/2008 3:30:41 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I love that practical experience you''ve got, Neil.

I always learn a thing or two from your posts.

Ditto that

Done almost all in this biz except NOT a bench jeweler. They are a special breed.

One never stops learning in this biz

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Rosa]

Date: 9/4/2008 12:37:16 PM
Author: sparxs111
Lets put it this way. When there are two conflicting stories and YOU are still torn, be wary. The best thing would be to send it to ANOTHER appraiser if you are still interested in it. It will be hard for PSers to help without seeing the piece. But in my opinion, the appraiser had nothing to gain by his answer. YOu are the customer with ALL the control, so don''t let someone talk you into something that you may not want to do. Certain sales people are great for that. Just be carefl, and again, if you still want it take it to another appraiser that YOU find, not that they recommend. GOOD LUCK!!

Hi and thanks everyone for your responses. It is great to get home and see all the input. Sparxs111, sorry if I was unclear - I was not torn; I believed the appraiser since he is independent and seemed like he knew his stuff and I found him recommended here on Pricescope as an independent appraiser. What made me post the question is that the salesperson was so insistent that it was "handmade" etc. So then I wondered if perhaps there was another way to look at it, or was that a flat-out lie. I think Neil''s explanation went a long way towards explaining how someone could look at it both ways.

What is interesting to me is that I don''t actually find that detail tremendously important - I want a piece to be well-made and be a piece of good quality that I''ll be able to enjoy for years to come. If the salesperson hadn''t talked about that as a reason why their price was so high, I wouldn''t have been surprised at the appraiser''s statement about the injection molding.

 

[Rosa]

Date: 9/4/2008 2:24:25 PM
Author: denverappraiser
If you haven’t already done so, the first person to talk to is your appraiser.

They aren’t as far apart as you might think. They don’t injection mold gold, they are injection molding plastic into a metal mold and then casting with that. This is as opposed to injecting wax into a plastic mold prior to casting. In general, metal molds with plastic produces better results in the final casting but the tooling costs are higher so the makers will only do this if they expect to have a fairly large production run. In short, both are saying that the pieces are cast, both are saying that it was mass produced and the appraisers method I would count as actually better. Modern injection wax has far more in common with plastic than candle wax by the way.

Obviously the ethnicity of the craftsman is both undetectable and irrelevant. Even if the hallmark is in Chinese or Russian it may be made by someone elsewhere who simply chose that mark for whatever reason. There are good craftsmen in Asia, crappy craftsmen in Europe and visa versa. If you can’t identify the makers mark, there’s nothing European or Asian about a piece of metal or stone to be detected. I would not recommend paying a premium for unprovable provenance no matter where you are hoping it was made.

Even the difference between machine setting and hand setting is a difficult line. ‘Hand’ setters use motorized equipment to cut the seats and shape the prongs and channels and I guess you get to decide if that means it’s set by hand or machine. I know of no robotic type equipment that can set baguettes without the control of a skilled human worker so I’m not sure what the appraiser means by ‘machine set’. Ask ‘em. A lot of the mass production work has the stones set in the wax/plastic and then the metal is cast around it but even this is done by hand.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

Neil, THANK YOU. This is so helpful and informative. The appraiser actually called me the next day to follow up, but I couldn''t take the call as I was in a meeting and hadn''t really yet formulated my questions yet. It sounds like the salesperson and the appraiser were somewhat looking at two different sides of the same coin. Also, I would hate to think that I came across as being anti-jewelry made outside of Europe. Not at all! I saw gorgeous pieces when traveling in Japan, Hong Kong, and mainland China and only wish I could have afforded to buy them back then. The salesperson pushed that info on me (handcrafted, made in Europe, etc.) as selling points, so I just felt like there was a trust/honesty issue. I just want as pretty and well-made a bracelet as I can get. There are literally HUNDREDS of beautiful ones on 47th St., so I plan to pick a couple and go back to the appraiser next week.

Again, thanks - the explanation you gave is tremendously helpful. :-}