Expert Advice Needed: AGS G vs GIA G

[OCgirl]

I took my engagement ring to my jeweler for a possible setting fix. He saw my diamond before (it's a 1.22 ct AGS000 Brian Gavin "Blue") but he asked me what color it is. I told him it's a G. He said it doesn't look "white" enough to be a G and that AGS grades really loosely on color. He pulled out a white piece of paper and put my ring side way against a 1 ct GIA graded G he has in stock (both rings mounted in white gold). I noticed a very noticeable color difference between the two. I would say with my non-expert eyes those two stones are at least two grades apart. It's starting to really bother me so my questions are:

- I took my ring to an independent appraiser (Patric Davis) in the area and he graded my stone "in between" G and H, while mounted.
- Can a larger stone 1.22 ct vs 1.00 ct display more body color? The carat weight is not that big of a difference though.
- Can a "high" GIA graded G and a "low" AGS graded G look that much different in person? The GIA graded stone had barely any body color. But I could see a very slight yellow tint in my stone next to it. I am very color sensitive so the GIA graded stone looked incredibly white to me as a G grade. I wasn't sure what to make of it.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Stones are not graded in the lab in a face up position. What was the cut grade on his stone? Depending on a stone's cut, it can face up whiter but that is sometimes dependent on the cut of the stone and not the body color. Did both stones have fluro?

I think it is an unfair statement to say that AGS grades color loosely. We've seen some instances of discrepancies between GIA and AGS but loosely is not a term I would apply to either lab. Did he have an AGS G color stone to compare to as well?

Your stone was graded by a top lab and it was appraised by an appraiser to be between a G and an H while mounted - still not the ideal way to grade but most appraisers have to appraise mounted stones. Brian Gavin sold it as a G color stone with fluro. I would not let a jeweler plant that seed of doubt in my head in light of the AGS cert and the word of an independent appraiser and a highly respected diamond cutter. Why would he even make this comparison for you if you were inquiring about a repair? I'm always suspicious of that kind of thing and wonder about the motivation of the jeweler.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have seen several instances here of AGS graded stones getting appraised at a lower color grade than on the cert, and I have the personal experience with a GIA H being sent to AGS and getting graded G. I also had AGS H diamond studs and they were noticably more tinted from the side than my GIA H. So my very limited experience is that your jeweler may be correct. I wouldn't worry about it since G and H are so close, though.

But the result of that is that I look for G color if graded by AGS and I can do H color if graded by GIA.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Yes, there have been some instances but thankfully that has not my experience. I certainly wouldn't expect the stone to be off two color grades as poster suggests she thinks she saw. I'd think there are some other factors coming into play between those two stones like cut and fluro. As long as the cert states a G color, that is what it would be bought and traded as - regardless of what the jeweler thinks.

 

[OCgirl]

Thank you for the responses.

I think the spec of the 1.00 GIA graded stone is G, VS 2, excellent cut, no fluor.
My stone is a 1.22 ct AGS graded G, SI1, 000, medium blue fluor.
How would this impact the body color?
The stones were put side by side viewing from the profile against a white piece of paper. I could safely say the color difference is not just one grade. I would think one grade difference is very minute.

My confusion is what I saw with my eyes and what the AGS cert AND independent appraisal are telling me are a bit contradictory. My stone was appraised against a GIA master set. I guess what I"m trying to understand is what other factors can cause the difference I'm seeing other than my stone is in between G and H whereas the other stone is probably a solid GIA G?

I guess I can go back to the jeweler and look at the comparison again
Thank you.

 

[diagem]

I took my engagement ring to my jeweler for a possible setting fix. He saw my diamond before (it's a 1.22 ct AGS000 Brian Gavin "Blue") but he asked me what color it is. I told him it's a G. He said it doesn't look "white" enough to be a G and that AGS grades really loosely on color. He pulled out a white piece of paper and put my ring side way against a 1 ct GIA graded G he has in stock (both rings mounted in white gold). I noticed a very noticeable color difference between the two. I would say with my non-expert eyes those two stones are at least two grades apart. It's starting to really bother me so my questions are:

- I took my ring to an independent appraiser (Patric Davis) in the area and he graded my stone "in between" G and H, while mounted.
- Can a larger stone 1.22 ct vs 1.00 ct display more body color? The carat weight is not that big of a difference though.
- Can a "high" GIA graded G and a "low" AGS graded G look that much different in person? The GIA graded stone had barely any body color. But I could see a very slight yellow tint in my stone next to it. I am very color sensitive so the GIA graded stone looked incredibly white to me as a G grade. I wasn't sure what to make of it.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

I have not yet met the individual who can grade or accurately compare two "mounted" diamonds..., especially in the G-H proximity.
I wouldn't loose any sleep on it...

 

[MissGotRocks]

Thank you for the responses.

I think the spec of the 1.00 GIA graded stone is G, VS 2, excellent cut, no fluor.
My stone is a 1.22 ct AGS graded G, SI1, 000, medium blue fluor.
How would this impact the body color?
The stones were put side by side viewing from the profile against a white piece of paper. I could safely say the color difference is not just one grade. I would think one grade difference is very minute.

My confusion is what I saw with my eyes and what the AGS cert AND independent appraisal are telling me are a bit contradictory. My stone was appraised against a GIA master set. I guess what I"m trying to understand is what other factors can cause the difference I'm seeing other than my stone is in between G and H whereas the other stone is probably a solid GIA G?

I guess I can go back to the jeweler and look at the comparison again
Thank you.

Perhaps you could call Brian Gavin and discuss it with him focusing more on what you saw with your own eyes rather than what the jeweler said. There are different tones in rough that may come in to play here - I don't know for sure. You could always ask AGS to reevaluate your stone but in all honesty, it wouldn't be to your financial advantage for it to come back as an H unless Brian would be willing to make a price adjustment.

I have to say once more though that diamonds are not graded in a face up position. I think that probably accounts for some differences in stones and no two diamonds are ever exactly alike. AGS graded it as a G and the appraiser said G-H. That's not a huge difference. We know that the cut of some stones will produce a whiter looking stone. GIA rounds their numbers so their ex,ex stones are in a broader range than AGS0 so that could account for some differences in appearance. The important thing is what you felt about the stone before you walked into that jeweler. If you loved it, that shouldn't change. If you've had doubts, then maybe it is worth a second look.

Do you have pictures of your ring for us to see? Would love to see this stone!

 

[OCgirl]

Thank you for the responses.

I think the spec of the 1.00 GIA graded stone is G, VS 2, excellent cut, no fluor.
My stone is a 1.22 ct AGS graded G, SI1, 000, medium blue fluor.
How would this impact the body color?
The stones were put side by side viewing from the profile against a white piece of paper. I could safely say the color difference is not just one grade. I would think one grade difference is very minute.

My confusion is what I saw with my eyes and what the AGS cert AND independent appraisal are telling me are a bit contradictory. My stone was appraised against a GIA master set. I guess what I"m trying to understand is what other factors can cause the difference I'm seeing other than my stone is in between G and H whereas the other stone is probably a solid GIA G?

I guess I can go back to the jeweler and look at the comparison again
Thank you.

Perhaps you could call Brian Gavin and discuss it with him focusing more on what you saw with your own eyes rather than what the jeweler said. There are different tones in rough that may come in to play here - I don't know for sure. You could always ask AGS to reevaluate your stone but in all honesty, it wouldn't be to your financial advantage for it to come back as an H unless Brian would be willing to make a price adjustment.

I have to say once more though that diamonds are not graded in a face up position. I think that probably accounts for some differences in stones and no two diamonds are ever exactly alike. AGS graded it as a G and the appraiser said G-H. That's not a huge difference. We know that the cut of some stones will produce a whiter looking stone. GIA rounds their numbers so their ex,ex stones are in a broader range than AGS0 so that could account for some differences in appearance. The important thing is what you felt about the stone before you walked into that jeweler. If you loved it, that shouldn't change. If you've had doubts, then maybe it is worth a second look.

Do you have pictures of your ring for us to see? Would love to see this stone!

Thank you again for the response.

I love my stone but I guess before the jeweler even mentioning it, sometimes I feel it's not as "white" as I would like. But then I've never owned an AGS graded stone so I wasn't sure if my expectation of a G is realistic? I initially was looking at GIA graded F to be my engagement ring but the price went up like crazy this year so I found the price of this stone to fall within our budget. It is a beautiful stone and the appraiser graded a very high SI1, as in he thinks it's between VS2 and SI1. It's incredibly clean. It's just that it appears I'm very color sensitive. Either that or the stone seems to "absorb" or "eat" whatever color it is around it so oftentime the indoor lightings are always a bit "yellow"? Under certain lighting it's absolutely white even from the profile. So I am not sure if I am just being overly paranoid and my mind is playing tricks on me or I'm just a little too color sensitive. I don't dare talk about these things with my fiance or my friends because I think they already think I'm crazy Only Psers understand...

I never started a post (I feel ashamed of my picture-taking skills; people here take such fantastic pictures) but here are a few pictures...
Again it's a BGD "Blue" 1.22 ct G SI1

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think a LOT of what you are seeing is color from the environment. The picture with the flower is a good example. Your stone is definitely not that tinted. I have AGS G studs and they are not warm at all. So I really think that you are mostly seeing colors from things around the stone. If you go outside and hold the ring in the daylight but out of the sun, I'll bet you can't see color in it.

Your ring is beautiful!!!

 

[MissGotRocks]

I agree with DS on this one - what you are describing is pretty typical of an ideal cut stone. They do pick up lots of color from the environment and in certain lighting conditions go dark. This is in contrast to a few other stones that I've had along the way that looked whiter most of the time. The trade off there is that you don't have that sparkle/scintillation that makes these stones look so 'alive'.

Your stone looks beautiful and not at all tinted to my eye. I think we read here and assume that everyone else's diamond is blindingly white all of the time when in truth, they are performing much like your stone does. I think sometimes our expectations lead us to disappointment. An ideal cut stone is not like the diamonds of yesterday and once you begin to appreciate the qualities of their precision cut, you start to shed your unreasonable expectations of what it *should* look like.

I hope all of this dialogue helps you feel better - I think your stone is marvelous!!

 

[OCgirl]

Thank you diamondseeker and missgotrocks.

I think you both are right. I never owned an ideal/super ideal cut stone before. Its performance is very different from my other stones, not to mention this one is much larger. My other solitaire rings were .3 ct and .5 ct and the cuts are probably very good at best. I do own a 3/4 ct diamond pendant from De Beers (they claim all their retail diamonds are ideal cut and I do see perfect arrows) but I don't really see that stone often since it's on my neck most of the time.

I initially was surprised of its ability to absorb all these lights/colors from the environment. I noticed it changes to whatever lighting/color environment it is in. Diamondseeker was right when she mentioned if I look at the stone under natrual sunlight but away from the sun, the stone looks virtually colorless. But under direct sunlight it performs... oddly. It gives out this crazy-weird-half-ready-to-explode-with-shine-explosion look but not exactly what you describe as "true bling". I'm not sure how to describe it. Combined that with the blue flour I'm just not sure what's going on!

I think it's unfortunate that I did look at a lot of stones when I went through this process but mostly under jewelry store lightings. I was able to bring a few stones near the door to look at them under the sunlight. But spending a lot of time with a stone is another story. I am still trying to learn its personality and sometimes it's just easy to freak out about it.

Thank you again for your valuable inputs.

 

[kenny]

I've read here on PS that the way GIA grades color a 0.2 and a 2 ct G will not look the same color.
The 2 ct G will show more color than the 0.2 ct G.
A 20 ct G will show more color than a 2 ct G.

That said, I think you'd need super duper-eyes to discern the difference between a 1 ct and a 1.3 ct G.

 

[OCgirl]

I've read here on PS that the way GIA grades color a 0.2 and a 2 ct G will not look the same color.
The 2 ct G will show more color than the 0.2 ct G.
A 20 ct G will show more color than a 2 ct G.

That said, I think you'd need super duper-eyes to discern the difference between a 1 ct and a 1.3 ct G.

Then why did I see a color difference? I am sure I am not imagining things!

 

[kenny]

I've read here on PS that the way GIA grades color a 0.2 and a 2 ct G will not look the same color.
The 2 ct G will show more color than the 0.2 ct G.
A 20 ct G will show more color than a 2 ct G.

That said, I think you'd need super duper-eyes to discern the difference between a 1 ct and a 1.3 ct G.

Then why did I see a color difference? I am sure I am not imagining things!

I have no idea.

I've read here, over and over, that GIA and AGS are really close on color grading.

Also, if you read the fine print on the back of the reports from both labs I think it says they have one grade of slop.

I think you should just enjoy your diamond.
It's not like you bought a diamond graded by EGL or IGI, where you'd have legitimate cause to complain about the flakey grading

 

[milton333]

Let me just state the obvious, here - we're taking the jeweler's word for it that he was showing you a GIA G. In fact, unless you see the girdle inscription, there's no way to know that a cert matches a stone, even if he pulled out a cert for the alleged GIA G.

As noted above, it seems curious for a jeweler to be talking about tint in your diamond if you're just in for a repair. Is it possible that he was comparing a higher color grade stone in an effort to make you dissatisfied with your current stone, so as to generate some business for him?

 

[OCgirl]

Let me just state the obvious, here - we're taking the jeweler's word for it that he was showing you a GIA G. In fact, unless you see the girdle inscription, there's no way to know that a cert matches a stone, even if he pulled out a cert for the alleged GIA G.

As noted above, it seems curious for a jeweler to be talking about tint in your diamond if you're just in for a repair. Is it possible that he was comparing a higher color grade stone in an effort to make you dissatisfied with your current stone, so as to generate some business for him?

I suspect this too. I think the 1 ct looked way smaller against my 1.22 ct. And it looks amazingly "white" for a G. It honestly had no discernible color from the profile view against the white paper whatsoever.
I didn't ask him to pull the certificate since I was kind of in a rush to head somewhere else. So I took his word for it. But then after I left it started to bother me. I looked at the comparison side by side profile view against the white paper for about 10 seconds.
I've known him for quite a while so I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. If it's a mix-up I don't want to treat it as intentional.
But it's definitely a possibility.

It's sad that jewelers are not always honest yet at the same time they are selling such valuable (monetarily and sentimentally) pieces...

 

[OCgirl]

I've read here on PS that the way GIA grades color a 0.2 and a 2 ct G will not look the same color.
The 2 ct G will show more color than the 0.2 ct G.
A 20 ct G will show more color than a 2 ct G.

That said, I think you'd need super duper-eyes to discern the difference between a 1 ct and a 1.3 ct G.

Then why did I see a color difference? I am sure I am not imagining things!

I have no idea.

I've read here, over and over, that GIA and AGS are really close on color grading.

Also, if you read the fine print on the back of the reports from both labs I think it says they have one grade of slop.

I think you should just enjoy your diamond.
It's not like you bought a diamond graded by EGL or IGI, where you'd have legitimate cause to complain about the flakey grading

Kenny I just want to say I enjoy you posts. You are hilarious, not to mention witty

 

[Dreamer_D]

Let me just state the obvious, here - we're taking the jeweler's word for it that he was showing you a GIA G. In fact, unless you see the girdle inscription, there's no way to know that a cert matches a stone, even if he pulled out a cert for the alleged GIA G.

As noted above, it seems curious for a jeweler to be talking about tint in your diamond if you're just in for a repair. Is it possible that he was comparing a higher color grade stone in an effort to make you dissatisfied with your current stone, so as to generate some business for him?

I had not thought of this but now that you mention it YES this is totally the amswer!

Any jeweler worth his salt would not be commenting on the color of your stone It sounds like smarmy sales tactic to me.

Your stone will pick up environmental colors like mad being so well cut, and that would even be evident from the side to a degree. I own GIA Gs and they are plenty white, the only time I nocice the slight "warmth" of a G is compared to a D or E color stone.

I prefer H color stones, it is my favourite color for diamonds.

 

[kenny]

Kenny I just want to say I enjoy you posts. You are hilarious, not to mention witty

Rather large checks can be mailed to Kenny, c/o Pricescope.
US Dollars please.

 

[Laila619]

Well I had a nice-sized AGS graded H color diamond, and honestly, it looked tinted to me. I believe it would have been an I color from GIA. So yes, I do believe that it's possible AGS might grade color less strictly.

 

[sapphirering]

I wonder then if an AGS D is in fact a GIA D or more like a GIA E? My e-ring is AGS D and I put it next to my GIA E studs and I can't tell the color difference at all head on. Sometimes I think the GIA E has a little bit of tint toward the culet, but I'm wondering if it's psychological. But then, if the stone is graded against a master set, I would assume that AGS D should be the same as GIA D since the D is on the endpoint of the graded spectrum? Either way, it's colorless enough for me.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I wonder then if an AGS D is in fact a GIA D or more like a GIA E? My e-ring is AGS D and I put it next to my GIA E studs and I can't tell the color difference at all head on. Sometimes I think the GIA E has a little bit of tint toward the culet, but I'm wondering if it's psychological. But then, if the stone is graded against a master set, I would assume that AGS D should be the same as GIA D since the D is on the endpoint of the graded spectrum? Either way, it's colorless enough for me.

One would like to assume the color grading is the same, but a number of us have the experience of knowing that they are not. At one time I had an AGS and GIA H stone, and I could see the tint in the AGS H. And I had a GIA H stone regraded by AGS and it was graded G. I remember when Harriet bought her 3 ct. AGS I color stone and the first appraiser said it was J or even K! It was then sent to David Atlas, I believe, who graded it a J. So while it certainly may not happen all the time, I think when a stone is borderline, GIA is stricter and AGS is more lenient. There is an advantage to the diamond seller to have the AGS color grade since the stone is going to sell for considerably more when the color bumps up a notch rather than down when the color is borderline.

 

[diagem]

I wonder then if an AGS D is in fact a GIA D or more like a GIA E? My e-ring is AGS D and I put it next to my GIA E studs and I can't tell the color difference at all head on. Sometimes I think the GIA E has a little bit of tint toward the culet, but I'm wondering if it's psychological. But then, if the stone is graded against a master set, I would assume that AGS D should be the same as GIA D since the D is on the endpoint of the graded spectrum? Either way, it's colorless enough for me.

Based on my experience it's way harder for a Diamond to earn the "D" color grade from AGS then from GIA.
One thing I did pick up after submitting plenty of lowered colored (J-K-L-M-N....to Y-Z & LFY) Diamonds for grading, I find AGS much more consistent in their grading of those.

In the G-H-I range I find inconsistencies with both Labs (but that's based on my opinion only) although I hear plenty of complaints on these issues from other diamantaires as well.

 

[Jim Summa]

Hello Everybody,
I’d say that DiaGem’s post reflects my experience too.

To the OP, you could possibly find an AGS member store near you.... not just a store which sells AGS-reports, but a MEMBER store that has a Gemlab.... and compare the diamond against their certified AGS color (DIAMOND) masters. You’d have to understand that the view you are looking for is comparing color seen through the pavilion. So to that end prior posters here are correct…face-up is NOT the way it was graded....it’s just not possible to know exactly what the grader saw unless it’s unmounted, upside down, seen in neutral lighting with the observer wearing a white coat.
If this is possiable call up the store with a lab and tell them your concerns. The lab is required to be accessible to the public for this very reason. It enables you to see for yourself.

Jewelers can be a little slippery at times. I know of stores who have a strategy of setting one diamond nearer a coffee mug or tablet or some-such when showing it to make another look whiter. Same with store lighting. Same with what the person might be wearing. Same with the method of displaying the diamond via fingers vs cloth. I’m not saying anything shady happened but it sounds like this person wants to convince you that your diamond is “less” than what you thought and his is “better” than yours.
I have my microscope attached to a video moniter and it is amazing to see when you blow everything up how much the surrounding enviroment shows up in a stone.

Regarding the way AGSL, GIA and others treat grading, I’d ask Paul Slegers and John Pollard for answers. Their company submits hundreds of carats to both AGSL and GIA. They know what grades they expect in-house versus what the labs give them in the end. John is also a consultant for gemlabs around the world and knows a lot of inside info.

Paul and John will both be in my store in January for the annual “Meet The Cutter” party I host and I will ask them to speak about this topic. I’m trying to contact Andrey to place a banner for this event in case any of you Pricescopers are within striking distance of St. Louis.(Hellooo Andrey!).

Anyway it's a great subject since most “experts” and appraisers will agree that one-grade-of-variability is acceptable for a diamond report. And yet we use the diamond’s grading as the final word... with VERY little give or take in pricing once the “official” color/clarity are issued.

 

[ame]

Paul and John will both be in my store in January for the annual “Meet The Cutter” party I host and I will ask them to speak about this topic. I’m trying to contact Andrey to place a banner for this event in case any of you Pricescopers are within striking distance of St. Louis.(Hellooo Andrey!).

Yeeeehawww! CANNOT. WAIT.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Any lab can be off in its grading of a stone by one grade. I had a J stone than when resubmitted cam back as an I color. Laila maybe you "H" color stone just made that grade and if resubmitted would come back an "I" from the same lab! We cannot use our own anectodal experiences to decide that AGS, for example, is lax whereas GIA is strict!

 

[Dreamer_D]

My concerns is that if we all start making these types of statements then it will confuse consumers newer to diamonds when we say that EGL is loose in its grading. Now THAT is something we agree on and even experts agree on. But comparing GIA and AGS? I think it is splitting hairs.

 

[sapphirering]

Thank you DS, and especially DiaGem and Jim Summa for chiming in. For selfish reasons I'm glad to hear that my D should be a solid D. But I agree with Dreamer D too in that while anecdotal experiences are very important for a forum like this, it's easy to lead other readers into thinking that these experiences are in fact, well, fact.

eta: and sorry OP for the tangent.

 

[MissGotRocks]

My concerns is that if we all start making these types of statements then it will confuse consumers newer to diamonds when we say that EGL is loose in its grading. Now THAT is something we agree on and even experts agree on. But comparing GIA and AGS? I think it is splitting hairs.

I wholeheartedly agree. Anecdotal stories in no way compare to the real truth. I think it is terribly misleading and short sighted and I'm glad to hear from DiaGem and Mr. Summa on this subject. Their input is far more valuable to me than even my own experience with a couple of stones. I would love to hear John Pollard's point of view and some of the other well versed vendors on this subject. Most of us have been lucky to have looked at a dozen stones in our lifetimes and although we love learning about diamonds, it in no way makes us graduate gemologists or certified appraisers qualified to make blanket statements about the two leading diamond labs - particularly on a consumer advocate site.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I certainly agree that we cannot generalize, but I probably wouldn't buy another AGS ring diamond unless I had the color verified by an appraiser. I think it is interesting that Diagem thinks the inconsistency happens more in the near colorless range because those have pretty much been the ones that had the problems that we know of. It just makes me even more thankful for the honest vendor who told me that my GIA diamond was probably a grade higher in color than it's GIA grade, and he was precisely right since the stone was graded a grade higher by AGS when we later sent it there (and it was graded ideal in every area, also)! That was a real bonus for me because I paid for the lower grade! However, it works the other way, too. I wouldn't want to overpay for a stone that would be graded a grade lower by GIA, either. That is why I am cautious. But I virtually never mention it to random people looking at diamonds here. I do chime in when the topic comes up because we have seen it happen on occasion.