excellent/excellent = ideal cut?

[thetoolman]

Hey all.

On a cert, does excellent polish/excellent symmetry mean that the diamond is an ideal cut? There is an IGI certed stone I am looking at, and was told that its an ideal because of the polish/symmetry. Is this true?

Thanks,
-Matt

 

[kenny]

No.

Ideal cut is about proportions and angles that result in good light performance.

 

[stone-cold11]

No.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/21/2009 2:28:40 AM
Author:thetoolman
Hey all.

On a cert, does excellent polish/excellent symmetry mean that the diamond is an ideal cut? There is an IGI certed stone I am looking at, and was told that its an ideal because of the polish/symmetry. Is this true?

Thanks,
-Matt

Hi Matt

Polish and symmetry in themselves being excellent are no guarantee of a diamond being of certain cut quality, so what you have been told is untrue.

These links explain more on polish and symmetry and the roles they playhere and here.

 

[thetoolman]

What else could I look for on an IGI report to help me find out if it really is an ideal cut, or a ??? What info is needed to make that determination?


Thanks again for the help,
-Matt

 

[stone-cold11]

IGI has too little info on cut information.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

I slightly disagree, Stone-cold.

If it is an IGI-report (more often found outside of the U.S), and not an IGI-appraisal, it should have average proportions at least, and even a proportions- or cut-grade. In that case, I understand that even the colour- and clarity-grades are relatively strict and correct.

Live long,

 

[stone-cold11]

hmm, the copies I found on JA only has the table and depth and no other proportions, dated 2009, so I based my comments on that.

I think it is the Identification Report type report, the other type of report I see is the Certificate of Authenticity, which do not even have the table and depth %. How many different types of IGI reports are out there?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/21/2009 10:50:03 AM
Author: thetoolman


What else could I look for on an IGI report to help me find out if it really is an ideal cut, or a ??? What info is needed to make that determination?


Thanks again for the help,
-Matt

If you can get the depth and table percentages and the crown and pavilion angles or percents, that would help a lot. Also the diameter in MM and girdle thickness. Look on the report to see what info is included.

 

[thetoolman]

I posted a while ago about upgrading my stone that I blindly bought from Jareds. I told them I was looking for a 1 carat ideal cut (possibly a peerless) princess. The peerless came back at a stupidly expensive price but they looked in their system and found me a more reasonable priced diamond with a grading of excellent/excellent. I asked if it was an ideal, the saleswoman swears up and down that it is, and told me it is because of that grading... I think that the only info they would be able to give me is off of the cert card that comes with the diamond. Jareds seems to carry only IGI graded diamonds.

So if they are not able to provide the %''s that you told me to look for, there is no way to know the cut quality of the diamond with one of their IGI reports?


I wish I could just get my new diamond from a vendor here... but I think that I would be out alot of money.

I appreciate all of your help.
-Matt

 

[kenny]

Only one gem lab grades the cut of princess diamonds, AGS.

 

[kenny]

Date: 10/21/2009 1:12:27 PM
Author: thetoolman
I wish I could just get my new diamond from a vendor here... but I think that I would be out alot of money.
-Matt

I think nothing could be further from the truth.
The problem is what you are considering is NOT as good as what you can get from a PS vendor.
You are not comparing apples to apples.

When you look into this more you will discover a certain stone from a certain PS vendor has a report from a more reputable lab and has much better cut.
Cut is more important to the beauty of a diamond than color or clarity - yet cut is the LEAST understood.
Most diamonds are poorly cut and most people have never seen a well cut one.
Once you do there is no going back.

I think after you learn more you will discover you get MORE for your money at PS vendors.

Look for a princess cut with an AGS report with their top cut grade.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/21/2009 1:12:27 PM
Author: thetoolman
I posted a while ago about upgrading my stone that I blindly bought from Jareds. I told them I was looking for a 1 carat ideal cut (possibly a peerless) princess. The peerless came back at a stupidly expensive price but they looked in their system and found me a more reasonable priced diamond with a grading of excellent/excellent. I asked if it was an ideal, the saleswoman swears up and down that it is, and told me it is because of that grading... I think that the only info they would be able to give me is off of the cert card that comes with the diamond. Jareds seems to carry only IGI graded diamonds.

So if they are not able to provide the %'s that you told me to look for, there is no way to know the cut quality of the diamond with one of their IGI reports?


I wish I could just get my new diamond from a vendor here... but I think that I would be out alot of money.

I appreciate all of your help.
-Matt

If it is a Princess then any of the info on the report concerning the proportions won't be of much help regrettably. Also you might well be surprised at the prices if you purchased from an online vendor, whats your plan Matt concerning the upgrade? Maybe we can help?

Jareds do carry AGS0 Peerless brand Princess which will narrow the field for well cut Princess considerably.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/21/2009 10:50:03 AM
Author: thetoolman



What else could I look for on an IGI report to help me find out if it really is an ideal cut, or a ??? What info is needed to make that determination?



Thanks again for the help,

-Matt

If by ‘ideal’ you mean that it meets the AGS definition of an ideal cut princess, the information isn’t present on ANY IGI report (they have at least a half a dozen different formats available and many others that have been discontinued). The straightforward way to figure it out is to submit it to AGSL for grading although a capable and well equipped appraiser can estimate it fairly well.

In realistic terms, expect it not to be. If it was AGS-ideal, the cutter would have submitted it to AGSL themselves in the hopes of selling it for a premium based on this pedigree. Ideal cutting is not a coincidence. The cutter goes through a fair amount of trouble to get there and it doesn't just happen by luck. One of the primary reasons to submit stones to IGI is because they provide a report that can be used as a selling tool without containing too much information that they don’t want you to have.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[thetoolman]

I know for a fact that I can get a better stone for less money from a better vendor... however I have 2300 tied up into this stone, and with the 100% trade in at jareds, I think that I would be losing alot of money if I just cut my losses and do what I should have done the first time.

I am planning on trading off this diamond for an ideal (or very well cut graded by a non ags company). I have looked around and know that I could get what I want for about 4K, but Id be stuck with my 2300 dollar diamond, making it 6300. The stone they found me is 4900- my 2300 making it 2600 that I have to put down. They have a peerless of the same size/color/clarity for over 7k, making it about 5k that I would need to pay. For that I could just buy a new one here and have my other as a spare or something. But I really dont want to do that.

I just wanted to see if there was a way to tell if something that I got from them is actually a nice cut.

Thanks. Any more oppinions are appreciated.
-Matt

 

[kenny]

Date: 10/21/2009 4:01:00 PM
Author: thetoolman
I am planning on trading off this diamond for an ideal (or very well cut graded by a non ags company).

There is no such thing as "cut graded by a non ags company" for a princess cut.

Only AGS grades the cut of princess-cut diamonds.

A princess graded by any other lab is not comparing apples to apples.

 

[stone-cold11]

Buy your own ASET scope, learn how to use it and go hunting in Jared. There maybe some good ones out there that are not graded by AGS.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_order.asp

 

[John P]

Date: 10/21/2009 11:15:25 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
hmm, the copies I found on JA only has the table and depth and no other proportions, dated 2009, so I based my comments on that.

I think it is the Identification Report type report, the other type of report I see is the Certificate of Authenticity, which do not even have the table and depth %. How many different types of IGI reports are out there?

Many. But the formats with additional measurements aren''t common in the US. Here you''ll most frequently encounter those "finished jewelry appraisal-reports," readily found in malls and other commercial outlets. The different locations have a number of loose diamond report formats. Many include CH and PD, from which CA and PA can usually be determined. There is a "Hearts & Arrows" report which includes the actual H&A photos or an illustration of H&A, and when the actual photo is included someone with experience can determine lower half length. There are also "Ideal" and "Excellent" cut reports which show primary measurements and assign a grade to proportions - though I''m not familiar with the metric used to arrive at that grade.

 

[stone-cold11]

That definitely makes me more wary of IGI reports without those proportions listed.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/21/2009 4:01:00 PM
Author: thetoolman
I know for a fact that I can get a better stone for less money from a better vendor... however I have 2300 tied up into this stone, and with the 100% trade in at jareds, I think that I would be losing alot of money if I just cut my losses and do what I should have done the first time.


I am planning on trading off this diamond for an ideal (or very well cut graded by a non ags company). I have looked around and know that I could get what I want for about 4K, but Id be stuck with my 2300 dollar diamond, making it 6300. The stone they found me is 4900- my 2300 making it 2600 that I have to put down. They have a peerless of the same size/color/clarity for over 7k, making it about 5k that I would need to pay. For that I could just buy a new one here and have my other as a spare or something. But I really dont want to do that.


I just wanted to see if there was a way to tell if something that I got from them is actually a nice cut.


Thanks. Any more oppinions are appreciated.

-Matt

So the ‘premium’ to get an AGS-0 is $2100 on a $4900 purchase or 42% over a more generic IGI graded stone (there are possibly differences in color and clarity too that are included in this). That’s pretty par for the course and the question you need to ask is if you’re willing to pay it. An alternative is to go with the AGS-0 but take a smaller size or lower clarity/color in order to keep the price down. One thing you WILL NOT get is an AGS-0 stone that was accidentally sent somewhere else and is therefore available at at a steep discount for lack of the pedigree.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[John P]

Date: 10/21/2009 2:58:40 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 10/21/2009 10:50:03 AM
Author: thetoolman

What else could I look for on an IGI report to help me find out if it really is an ideal cut, or a ??? What info is needed to make that determination?

Thanks again for the help,

-Matt

If by ‘ideal’ you mean that it meets the AGS definition of an ideal cut princess, the information isn’t present on ANY IGI report (they have at least a half a dozen different formats available and many others that have been discontinued). The straightforward way to figure it out is to submit it to AGSL for grading although a capable and well equipped appraiser can estimate it fairly well.

In realistic terms, expect it not to be. If it was AGS-ideal, the cutter would have submitted it to AGSL themselves in the hopes of selling it for a premium based on this pedigree. Ideal cutting is not a coincidence. The cutter goes through a fair amount of trouble to get there and it doesn't just happen by luck. One of the primary reasons to submit stones to IGI is because they provide a report that can be used as a selling tool without containing too much information that they don’t want you to have.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Neil,

In the information-driven US market, and specifically where AGS has a presence and support, I think the text in red is applicable. But in the interest of Pricescope's global audience I'd add that there are other world locations where the IGI lab is considered as strict and in some cases more consistent than other options, including the world's foremost lab.

Edited to add: While I thought this info was germane to mention I apologize if my comments are somewhat off-topic.

 

[thetoolman]

Thanks for the replys everyone. Sounds like I have some thinking to do. Sad to say that I may be better off buying a new stone outright and eating my old one.

I appreciate your replys.

-Matt

 

[Lula]

Date: 10/21/2009 7:48:57 PM
Author: thetoolman
Thanks for the replys everyone. Sounds like I have some thinking to do. Sad to say that I may be better off buying a new stone outright and eating my old one.


I appreciate your replys.


-Matt

Are you beyond your return period? Sounds like they misrepresented the stone to you, and they should be willing to take it back. I''d be inclined to make a fuss, write to the district manager, etc.

But no matter what, I wouldn''t want to give more money to Jared if I were you, and I''d eat the stone (sell it on Craigslist or Diamond Bistro -- search google for their site). You''ll get a better cut, a good price, and better service (with more knowledgeable salespeople) if you buy online from one of the PS vendors.

 

[thetoolman]

Sara, yes its out of the return by about 60 days. They didnt mis represent anything to me. I was just so excited and dumb when I bought it. Went with pretty much the biggest eye clean stone I could get. It is a *nice* stone, just not what I really want, especially now that I know how much better it gets.

I guess before I decide to buy another, Ill do a little more research and see how I can maximize my money and limit my losses.

Thanks for your input.
-Matt

 

[kenny]

Date: 10/21/2009 2:28:40 AM
Author:thetoolman
There is an IGI certed stone I am looking at, and was told that its an ideal because of the polish/symmetry. Is this true?

No.
This is misrepresentation.

(In your last post you wrote, "They didnt mis represent anything to me.")

I'd insist on a refund if they don't want to be reported for fraud.

 

[thetoolman]

Sorry Kenny, I should have worded that differently.

On the new stone that I am looking at, I was told because of its polish/symmetry that it was and ideal cut. My old stone, they didnt tell me a whole lot. I gave them my small budget and started to look for one of the larger stones within it.

On this new purchase.... It would be much more convenient to just wash my hands of my current stone, and buy another from them, but as discussed earlier I think I will get another mediocre stone or go way out of what I am comforatable spending. We''ll see what I can come up with.

Just for giggles here is a picture of my IGI certification.

-Matt

 

[thetoolman]

There is no such thing as "cut graded by a non ags company" for a princess cut.

Only AGS grades the cut of princess-cut diamonds.

A princess graded by any other lab is not comparing apples to apples.

Really sorry to be dragging this out everyone. But maybe you could beat something into my head before we are done. If AGS are the only ones who grade princess'' then how are you supposed to know the quality of the cut on anything non AGS graded? For example I went to JA, BN, and GOG and Im pretty sure they had GIA papers. Do none of these vendors carry high quality princess cuts? Who carries the AGS stones?

Maybe I am taking this the wrong way. Please correct me if thats the case. I really do want to understand this.

Thanks for your patience,
-Matt

 

[kenny]

If AGS are the only ones who grade princess' then how are you supposed to know the quality of the cut on anything non AGS graded?

You can't - unless you spend a lot of time learning tons and tons of complex stuff about the proportions and angles of the princess cut.
Personally, I think it is next to impossible that a typical shopper is going to do this.
The princess has a few pavilion angles so analyzing its cut is much more complex than with a round with its one pavilion angle.

That's why people keep saying if you get a princess, get one that AGS gave a high cut grade to, AGS 0.
Someone here has already said if a stone happened to be cut to those tight AGS specs they would be crazy to send it to any other lab since an AGS 0 will sell at a premium.


For example I went to JA, BN, and GOG and Im pretty sure they had GIA papers
Do none of these vendors carry high quality princess cuts?
Who carries the AGS stones?

Several PS vendors carry them.

BTW, if you get really anal you may want to look into the possibility that there is an even higher bar than AGS0.
AGS has been grading princess cut for a while now and some vendors feel their princess cuts (which earn AGS 0) are cut to an even higher standard.

If I was shopping for a princess I'd discuss this with Good Old Gold, High Performance Diamonds.
I think they feel their AGS 0 princess are extra super duper groovy.

John Pollard, does HPD cut their Infinity brand princess diamonds to a higher tighter standard than just AGS 0?
Same question for Jonathan at GOG.

 

[Lorelei]

edit

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 10/22/2009 2:28:08 AM
Author: thetoolman

There is no such thing as ''cut graded by a non ags company'' for a princess cut.

Only AGS grades the cut of princess-cut diamonds.

A princess graded by any other lab is not comparing apples to apples.

Really sorry to be dragging this out everyone. But maybe you could beat something into my head before we are done. If AGS are the only ones who grade princess'' then how are you supposed to know the quality of the cut on anything non AGS graded? For example I went to JA, BN, and GOG and Im pretty sure they had GIA papers. Do none of these vendors carry high quality princess cuts? Who carries the AGS stones?

Maybe I am taking this the wrong way. Please correct me if thats the case. I really do want to understand this.

Thanks for your patience,

-Matt

There are great princess stones that are AGS0 cut graded. We will need to see the ASET image to say if it is well cut for light return. GOG definitely carries both GIA and AGS0 cut graded stones but they supplement it with their own analysis. There are plenty of vendors that has AGS0 stones, HighPerformanceDiamond, NiceIce, WhiteFlash for example.