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Exams Without Consent

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Ideal_Rock
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Imagine that you are undergoing a fairly routine surgery – say, removal of uterine fibroids or hysterectomy. During or right after the procedure, while you are still under anesthesia, a group of medical students parades into the operating room and they perform gynecological exams (unrelated to the surgery) without your knowledge.

Do you consider this okay, or an outrageous violation of your rights?

Regardless of your feelings, you should be aware that this is standard procedure in many Canadian teaching hospitals.

Medical students routinely practice doing internal pelvic examinations while surgery patients are unconscious, and without getting specific consent, at least in Canada.

Guidelines in the United States and Britain say specific consent is required but, by contrast, Canadian guidelines state that pelvic examination by trainees is “implicit.”

The practice – one of those dirty little secrets of medicine – has been exposed in a thoughtful, professional manner by a young doctor.

The story goes back to 2007 when Sara Wainberg was a medical student at McMaster University. Her younger brother Daniel, also studying to be a doctor, phoned for advice: As part of his rotation in obstetrics and gynecology, he had been asked to perform a pelvic exam on a woman who was under anesthetic. He refused, saying doing so without consent would be unethical.

“It got me thinking,” Sara Wainberg said. “I had done this numerous times in my training and it had never occurred to me that it might be unethical.”

She polled her fellow students and found 72 per cent had also done exams on unconscious patients, without consent, confirming that it is routine.

It is essential for medical students to learn basic techniques, including pelvic examination, in well supervised settings.

The long-standing argument in favour of allowing these exams to be done on surgery patients is that it provides a unique opportunity for students to practice the delicate, invasive examination without causing the woman pain or embarrassment.

There is also an assumption that women would never accept pelvic exams by students while conscious so sneaking them in, while not ideal, is acceptable.

When Dr. Wainberg took a position as a resident at Foothills Hospital in Calgary, she decided to study the issue further. She and fellow researchers polled 102 women who were patients at the Calgary Pelvic Floor Disorders Clinic.

The results – reported in The Medical Post and in the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology – are as fascinating as they are troubling.

Dr. Wainberg and her team found that fewer than one in five women were aware that a student might do a pelvic exam in the operating room. At the same time, 72 per cent expected to be asked for consent before such an exam was done.

The patients – unlike medical educators – seem to be quite clear on the concept of informed consent.

You don''''t probe, poke or otherwise invade the orifices of a patient without their permission, regardless of how educational it might be. Period.

The most intriguing part of the survey, though, is that it showed that women are quite willing to undergo these gynecological exams – if they''''re asked.

Sixty-two per cent of respondents said they would consent to medical students doing pelvic exams, and an additional 5 per cent said “yes” but only if a female student was doing the exam.

This lays to rest the notion that it would be impossible for medical students to get this training unless they were doing it in the current surreptitious, unethical manner.

But let''''s be clear: Even if all the women surveyed had rejected exams by medical students, the current approach would still be wrong.

There are other ways to do this training, using simulation models, paid volunteers and consenting patients in other settings such as clinics.

Patients have a right to say “No.” They are not merely a collection of body parts to be practised on. Patients are due respect and ethical treatment, whether they are awake or anesthetized, and no matter how potentially embarrassing the procedure may be.

The research done by Dr. Wainberg and her colleagues, in passing, exposed something else important: Patients have very little idea what goes on in the operating room. Most have no idea that, in addition to the surgeon and nurses, medical residents or medical students may be present and may even participate actively.

This is the result of a failure to communicate. It is also a striking example of a lingering bit of paternalism that is still all-too-present in medical culture – this notion that “we do the surgery and the details are none of your business.”

“It''''s definitely the patient''''s business who does what to them,” Dr. Wainberg said. “They have to be informed and they have to give consent.”

In fact, if she was starting over again as a medical student and was asked to perform a pelvic exam, Dr. Wainberg has no doubt she would refuse.

So too should every medical student and every teacher.

A good doctor does not merely possess good technical skills, she or he must behave ethically and treat patients with the utmost respect.


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What are your thoughts, female members of PS? Not just Canadian women, but women everywhere. If this happened to you, would you consider this okay, or a violation of your rights?
 
Oops. I realize now this probably belongs in FHH.

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I think that anything (not medically necessary) done without consent while a patient is under anesthesia is a violation. This is shocking to me, especially as a Canadian who''s been to a teaching hospital. The upsetting part to me is that if only the patient was asked, many would likely give their permission.
 
Interesting question Ebree. I know we have great teaching hospitals here, U of Penn, etc.. If I was to have a procedure and was under general, I would want to know if someone was going to probe me down there... If they do that without my consent?? That''s wrong!!!

I know they need to learn and all, but do it on someone that gives their full consent.
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"Probing" is the least of my worries. Here in American hospitals your primary surgeon routinely walks out of the operating room as soon as the surgery is done and asks his/her intern to "close". Personally I''m paying the surgeon and I expect them to be there operating as primary from first incision to last stitch.

I think consent should be requested for exams, etc. but then I''m also not one who would give a darn who does the probing and practicing. No one is going to die from a pelvic, unlike an intern that might screw up the close.
 
I find this practice shocking, and I would definitely feel violated if this happened to me without my consent.
 
If it were me, then I''d feel that it was a violation of my rights. I think the only time a pelvic exam should be done is if it is medically necessary and with the patient''s full consent.
 
Date: 1/28/2010 8:48:00 PM
Author: purrfectpear
''Probing'' is the least of my worries. Here in American hospitals your primary surgeon routinely walks out of the operating room as soon as the surgery is done and asks his/her intern to ''close''. Personally I''m paying the surgeon and I expect them to be there operating as primary from first incision to last stitch.

I think consent should be requested for exams, etc. but then I''m also not one who would give a darn who does the probing and practicing. No one is going to die from a pelvic, unlike an intern that might screw up the close.
May be fine by you. BUT for me?? I am my own best advocate, and know the laws regarding patients rights, etc... Oh they would be against a brick wall if they did that to me.
 
Date: 1/28/2010 8:26:07 PM
Author: upgrade
I think that anything (not medically necessary) done without consent while a patient is under anesthesia is a violation. This is shocking to me, especially as a Canadian who's been to a teaching hospital. The upsetting part to me is that if only the patient was asked, many would likely give their permission.

Apparently, this happens in the US too. This article was posted in another of my online communities, and a med student who lives in the US admitted to doing it in the comment section. She said something to the effect of "ask any med student...we've all done it."
 
That was not allowed at my medical school, and I never saw it happen.

Of course, that is just my experience, I know it could happen elsewhere, and has, but I don''t agree with it.
 
Date: 1/28/2010 9:24:20 PM
Author: EBree

Date: 1/28/2010 8:26:07 PM
Author: upgrade
I think that anything (not medically necessary) done without consent while a patient is under anesthesia is a violation. This is shocking to me, especially as a Canadian who''s been to a teaching hospital. The upsetting part to me is that if only the patient was asked, many would likely give their permission.

Apparently, this happens in the US too. This article was posted in another of my online communities, and a med student who lives in the US admitted to doing it in the comment section. She said something to the effect of ''ask any med student...we''ve all done it.''
Wow. I''ve never had surgery at a teaching hospital, and now I never will (I live in the US). I would sue if I found out this had happened, period.
 
in my med school, we learned the gyn exam on paid volunteers (needless to say, some of these people were VERY sketchy). it definitely seems to be a violation to do it without someone''s knowledge/consent.

as an aside purrfectpear, i would MUCH rather the intern do a closure in a surgery. you will NOT die from imperfectly placed stitches, and i will almost guarantee that the intern is going to spend a LOT more time making the incision look nice than the hurried attending who couldn''t give a darn! i''ve seen a ton of closures by both and i know which i would pick!!!!
 
I live in the US and I''ve been asked at least a dozen times if a student could attend, perform, or otherwise be involved in pelvic exams and fertility issues. I always said yes because I figure they need to learn. To know that there are many people like me around and to see that they still feel the need to invade privacy, practice illegally, etc is insane.

Recently we had a thread about a woman who had a tubal ligation without her consent. Obviously her situation has lasting repercussions, but really, HOW is it different? Performing any procedure without prior consent is unacceptable.


Even taking the "pelvic" portion out of the equation, I wouldn''t expect a student to be digging around in my colon without consent, or checking out my heart, or poking at my tonsils.


How would you feel if this happened to your little girl? Your 15 year old daughter has endometreosis and has to undergo surgery. While under anesthetic, a student (who needs practice on young patients) performs this exam without your daughter''s or your own consent. If they do it to adults, why wouldn''t they do it to children??
 
Not ok
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I would take legal action over that. That is horrible to violate someone while they are under anesthesia!!!
 
Wow. As someone who works in research going through the informed consent process with patients, I find this shocking. In the US, there are very few situations in which you can operate or do a procedure on someone without their consent, and this is certainly not one of them. Don''t know what the laws are in Canada, but hard to believe they don''t have laws about informed consent. Not that I''m a litigious person, but someone needs to bring a lawsuit to stop this practice.
 
As an aside where I get my annual ob gyn checkups is part of a teaching hospital. Many many times I''ve been asked if a student could perform or view part of the procedures and I say yes.
 
This issue was discussed while my husband was in (a US) medical school, in the context of it being an unethical, past practice. They actually had volunteers from a women''s group come in and subject themselves to pelvic exams by novices for teaching purposes.

But the fact remains that if you are in a teaching hospital, there are things that are done for education purposes. And medical people have to be trained, and there is a limit to what can be learned from a textbook, lecture, or model. Sometimes you need patients.

Before people swear off teaching hospitals forever, there are also non-altruistic reasons for having procedures done there. People associated with teaching hospitals tend to be more up-to-date on their stuff, and often will handle more complex cases than community hospitals, giving them more experience with those cases and better outcomes then when handled by someone who sees a particular problem once in a blue moon. Obviously this is generalizing a fair bit, but there can be advantages to a teaching hospital over a non-teaching hospital, especially for certain kinds of problems.
 
Our Dr. has med students come often to follow her around and the nurses have to ask every single patient if it''s ok if the student is in there-even for something simple like removing a wart-I can''t imagine being under anesthesia and someone coming in to do a pelvic on me without my consent. I realize they need to learn somehow, but that doesn''t mean anyone should be forced to participate.
 
When I was in college I went to the Health Dept for my annual exams. I lived in a college town with a teaching hospital. I had medical students come in to complete the exam, then the dr come in and do it again. Oof! They absolutely informed me that they were students, etc. While I was not happy to go through that twice, I allowed it. (ETA: I only received one PAP and the Dr. was very brief.)

I think it''s completely unacceptable for medical professionals to do anything w/o your consent. I thought it was practice, at least in the US, to gain consent before a student even observed, esp with HIPPA violations, etc)
 
 
Considering I was just at the Foothills hospital in Calgary last week, this is disturbing to say the least.

And I think claiming that most women wouldn''t allow students to perform exams on them is ridiculous - during my last Pap smear a student was in the room and my dr. asked me if I would allow the student to do the exam and although it took longer and was a bit more uncomfortable, I had no problem with it at all. I was glad to help her learn.
 
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I would honestly feel like both my rights and myself had been violated if this happened to me.
 
I agree- this is very disturbing.
There are other ways to learn - I know for a Nurse Practitioner''s liscense a pelvic exam is part of the education, and they have volunteers - paid and unpaid - for that.
They can also learn through cadavers.

I think it''s a violation of rights to perform unrelated exams.

My MIL had a hemmorhoid operation done at a teaching hospital. They asked her if they could videotape it for educational purposes... she said, "Oh, HELL no!! You think I want everyone looking at MY a$$h#*&!! Think again!" It was funny (you should''ve seen the doc''s face), but entirely her right to refuse that.
 
It's disgusting.

My Mom once told me a story of how she was undergoing a routine pelvic exam and her attending physician asked her if she minded allowing some interns to attend the exam as part of their education. My Mom had already had 4 kids and was in her 40's. She said "okay". She told me that it was one of the most humiliating experiences of her life. Not because of the number of interns that took turns looking up her waahoo, but because the Dr. was educating them on the clinical differences of a women who had several children and was sexually active compared to the ...opposite. She remembers all the horrible words he was using to describe the "used and abused" linings and tightness of her uterus.

We laugh about it whenever it's brought up. We discovered this practice was occurring and that is one of the discussions that prompted us to talk about my Mom's experience. We all agree that although it isn't pleasant to be a guinea pig for medical vaginal virgins...it sure beats exam without consent. That's just creepy.
 
This is creeping me out.
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I am going to have nightmares.... I hope none of the preggos are reading this!!!!
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So disturbing. I wonder if there would be more objection if men, under anesthesia for something like knee surgery, were routinely subjected to practice rectal exams by med students without their consent?

Found a good scholarly article on the practice for anyone that wants to know more. R. Wilson, Autonomy Suspended: Using Female Patients to Teach Intimate Exams without their Knowledge or Consent (2005). http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=880120 According to this, California has made unauthorized exams a misdemeanor and subject to license revocation. I would support those kind of legal penalties for this behavior. There needs to be clear standards in place because apparently common sense is not prevailing. The article says 90% of med students admitted to doing this!
 
Yuck, I had no idea! I would totally agree if asked, but to do it without my consent is terrible. I wonder if they also do prostate exams on men without consent.
 
I would consider this to be assault (which it would be in Scots law) and I would press for criminal charges, not civil litigation.
 
I would really not be happy if I found that had happened without my consent. They should not be allowed to do that.
 
My initial thought is that the italics really really hurt my eyes and it''s hard to read.

I think this is HORRIFYING and bordering on molestation/assault. Believe me, if I found out someone (doctor or otherwise) gave me a pelvic while I was unconscious and unaware I would have their license pulled and would push for criminal charges. That''s just wrong. I don''t know how anyone could think that consenting to a surgical procedure that requires being unconscious is implying consent to an unnecessary exam by a strange doctor/student. That''s like saying, she was naked and making out with me before she passed out, so having sex with her wasn''t rape. It was implied consent.

Give me a break!
 
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