Emerald to radiant ... need some advice.

[mwk_diamond]

Hello.

New to this and just starting to get educated. Went shopping for a diamond in Dallas and arrived a large shop on Preston Road.

The salesman provided very able assistance and, after some discussion and looking at inventory, presented a radiant cut diamond of about 2.7 ct. See the attached pics below. This stone was recut from a 3.0 ct. emerald-shape which was EGL graded as "H" color, "SI1" clarity. The recut stone is 'graded' by their in-house staff (GIA trained) as "J" color and "SI1" clarity. It was explained that the emerald shape had an inclusion in one corner which reflected to the other 3 ... the diamond was recut to make it better.

So, the conundrum ... I am being offered this diamond at a fairly reasonable price ($5300 per ct) and it looks very nice ... but I am naturally inclined to be cautious and double-check everything ... I inquired is the stone could be sent out for grading and was advised that this would be costly ($500 was mentioned). It was further explained that if the stone was graded, the price would most likely increase.

So what options do I have ...

... press to have the stone graded prior to purchase and absorb the cost

... take possession and I send the stone somewhere for grading (thus more questions ... where to send, etc)

... proceed with the transaction and simply have an appraisal done after the ring and diamond are together

Maybe some knowledgeable souls on this site can provide some advice and guidance.

Thank you kindly for all your help.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi,
Welcome to PS!
I would not advise buying that stone without first having it sent to GIA.
If they will offer to guarantee the price, and first right of refusal, it would be in your benefit.
Or they can say that they may want to re-price the diamond once GIA comes back.

Buying as is represents too great a risk for you- and we have not even delved into the stone's particulars.
Can't tell all that much from the pics but it looks to be more yellow than J- and I'm not picking up great life in the pic- but that could be for a lot of reasons.

One big clue is the price.
If it was actually a well cut J, it would go for a lot more.

 

[Gypsy]

500 in the long run is a good investment. GIA graded stones are worth more. You insurance will have the lab report if something happens to it.

This PROTECTS you. And I highly doubt that stone is going to come back with the grades they have told you it will get.

Have you ever heard the saying "penny wise, pound foolish"? That's exactly what worrying over the 500 instead of seeing the long term financial implications of NOT getting it lab graded means.

And do not settle for ANY lab other than GIA.

 

[distracts]

So... I imagine you're probably talking about Diamond Doctor? Quite frankly, I have never been impressed by them. IMO they sell a lot of large but lifeless rocks. Also on Preston is Bachendorfs, and in Bachendorfs is Bachs, which imo has better diamonds, though I've never looked at radiants there. I've never looked at diamonds at Skibell in Preston Center but I've been very impressed by their service overall. Probably don't go if you're deathly allergic to dogs though since there's usually a Golden Retriever there. For radiants, I've always loved the selection at De Beers at Northpark. I might also try Curtis Miller at the WTC. (I bought my engagement ring from Mariloff at the WTC, but they have both GIA and EGL diamonds and you have to press hard to make sure they show you only GIA-graded ones, and be really specific about performance. And some of the sales guys are better than others. I want to say Jeff is the name of the guy I like there? The owner is also good, but he's not always there.)

You can look up the fee for GIA grading online. For a 2-2.99ct diamond it is $169. I can't imagine they are spending $330 on shipping and handling.

If they are saying that if the stone was graded and came back the colors they say it is, and the cost would INCREASE... what faith do you have that the color is as they say? I mean, really. The only reason they would raise the price by more than the cost of the grading report + S&H is if it is actually worth more than what they have judged it to be worth and priced it as, which would imply that it is currently priced wrongly. If they think they could make more money by grading it... why wouldn't they?

If you are truly interested in the stone, I would tell them that you want it graded by GIA and IF it comes back the grades they say or better, you will buy it at their price. If it DOES NOT, they will pay for the grading.

 

[garybloom]

Hi mwk_diamond » 05 Nov 2014 13:51

I understood from what you wrote that the diamond already has been graded by EGL (was it EGL USA?) and by an in-house GIA certified gemologist. First, get the EGL certificate. Second, it is up to you to get the stone also examined by the GIA Labs. The "results" will be more detailed than you gave, but the color difference already indicated is typical ; and is one of the main differences in the 2 labs.
GIA is considered to be the industry standard. I am not an expert on whether this will help with insurance.
What you honestly need to keep in mind: Do you love the way the stone shines? Does it's brilliance blow you away?
A ring is not the certificate. Obviously, you should /need to have a certified stone; but you're not wearing the certificate.

The price should not be "different" due to two lab reports. The prices are determined by a system called the RapList; the mark-down given to diamond buyers, and their mark-up to the retail(er) + markup to the retail buyer (you). From the start the stone was priced against the RapList; lets say it was under the EGL grading. The dealer arrived at price; the buyer agreed / added the mark-up and Viola! you have thte "price"... If GIA report comes with different results, it doesn't change the STONE itself; it just gets a different grade. Like going to a movie. They rate it PG, but you say it's PG-13. It's the same movie. The ticket price is the same. Cost of popcorn is the same in the theater whether it is a PG or PG-13 film. What changes? The person/system who "rates" the film.

It is a close analogy. Bottomline: Buy what you can afford and get the most stone for your budget.

 

[MollyMalone]

 * * * You can look up the fee for GIA grading online. For a 2-2.99ct diamond it is $169. I can't imagine they are spending $330 on shipping and handling. * * *

I'm thinking Diamond Doctor would want to get the stone back from GIA ASAP so it's not out of their inventory for weeks, especially since the upcoming holiday season is a popular time for proposals and other special gift-giving. For rush reports, GIA charges 2x the standard fee. So although $500 definitely seems too high, the total expenses associated with expedited analysis could be roughly $400.

 

[distracts]

 * * * You can look up the fee for GIA grading online. For a 2-2.99ct diamond it is $169. I can't imagine they are spending $330 on shipping and handling. * * *

I'm thinking Diamond Doctor would want to get the stone back from GIA ASAP so it's not out of their inventory for weeks, especially since the upcoming holiday season is a popular time for proposals and other special gift-giving. For rush reports, GIA charges 2x the standard fee. So although $500 definitely seems too high, the total expenses associated with expedited analysis could be roughly $400.

Ah, right, I hadn't thought of expedited.

 

[mwk_diamond]

Wish to thank everyone for their time and advice.

Not sure if it is very readable ... but I have posted the EGL report for the original emerald shape.

 

[Rockdiamond]

You're welcome mwk.
I can't read the report to well- does it say "H" color?
I've had reports just like that say H color, then submit the diamond to GIA and have it come back N color.
Yup
N


BTW- GIA does not "certify" gemologists.
Someone using that single credential to show proof that they know what they're doing....it's simply not enough to trust a grade.

 

[MollyMalone]

That 2013 report did not come out of EGL-USA (which, being entirely distinct from & independent of EGL International, has a different logo/branding, employs a different report format & numbering system), so that's even more reason for obtaining a GIA Diamond Grading Report. Just curious -- what's on the sticker that's been slapped over the Comments section of the report?

BTW- GIA does not "certify" gemologists.
Someone using that single credential to show proof that they know what they're doing....it's simply not enough to trust a grade.

Very true, but the OP simply refers to "trained by GIA", so it doesn't seem Diamond Doctor has touted anyone on their staff as being a GIA-certified gemologist.

 

[mwk_diamond]

Many thanks.

A couple more questions ... any preference about where to send for the GIA grading ... NY or California.

Also, with regards to inscribing the report # on the diamond ... is this typically done? Any negatives?

Once again ... many thanks!

 

[Gypsy]

Inscription is a nice like to have. It's not a have to have.

GIA location make no difference. Wherever the shipping is cheapest.

 

[Rockdiamond]

mwk- Is there a particular reason that you want to buy from this seller?
Personally I believe that whoever is selling such a diamond knows GIA will downgrade the stone- and they should be telling you this.
Red flag, even forgetting about the diamond itself.
This deal has some very questionable aspects.

One piece of advice I've given many times: You're buying a diamond. Do as much research as you can, but you're not going to become a "diamond expert"
You are already an expert in people.
Use that intuition to make sure you pick a good seller who is not BS'ing you

 

[distracts]

David, how usual is it for a diamond to be recut and not issued a new grading report after the recut? Especially if it's a big one like a drop from >3cts to <3cts and change in shape? That seems weird to me.

 

[Rockdiamond]

David, how usual is it for a diamond to be recut and not issued a new grading report after the recut? Especially if it's a big one like a drop from >3cts to <3cts and change in shape? That seems weird to me.

Great question Distracts.
A few things have a lot f bearing on this.
1) Quality of the diamond. If a stone is a GIA graded F/VS1 and it's recut, there's no one in this business who would not send to back to GIA. Even if the diamond started out without a GIA, but it was a high color/clarity, someone with the knowledge to recut will most likely know that the stone would need a GIA report to obtain market price.
If the stone starts as an M/SI2 ( either with GIA or without), a large percentage of cutters/ dealers will just try and sell as is- or, send to an EGL lab that will call their M/SI2 an H/VS2
2) Quality of seller- We have a close relationship with the companies we get diamonds from- and honesty is a critical component. So I have a good understanding of how cutters deal with this issue. If they submit a stone and get a grade that they feel is not indicative of the stone, they "throw away" the GIA report.
So, there's a percentage of "non certed" stones that have a GIA report somewhere, gathering dust.
Most buyers won't gain the inside knowledge of where the stone has been- and although it's not nearly as bad as knowingly selling a diamond with an overblown report- not informing shoppers of the existance of a GIA report puts the buyer at a disadvantage, IMO

 

[Gypsy]

mwk- Is there a particular reason that you want to buy from this seller?
Personally I believe that whoever is selling such a diamond knows GIA will downgrade the stone- and they should be telling you this.
Red flag, even forgetting about the diamond itself.
This deal has some very questionable aspects.

One piece of advice I've given many times: You're buying a diamond. Do as much research as you can, but you're not going to become a "diamond expert"
You are already an expert in people.
Use that intuition to make sure you pick a good seller who is not BS'ing you

I agree with this 100%.

 

[MollyMalone]

mwk- Is there a particular reason that you want to buy from this seller?
Personally I believe that whoever is selling such a diamond knows GIA will downgrade the stone- and they should be telling you this. * * *

Diamond Doctor did advise mwk that their staff does not consider the stone to be any better than a J, not an H as graded by EGL-wherever.
We have no idea of mwk's priorities (close to 3 cts seems to matter) and budget. Plus, lots of people, even in this Internet age, still prefer to purchase their diamond/e-ring at a local brick-and-mortar shop. So I bet mwk really appreciates distract's suggestions of other local merchants!

P.S. I'm wondering if the emerald-cut was a trade-in that arrived at DD's doorstep with the EGL report & DD then had it re-cut locally into a radiant in order to make it more marketable

 

[Rockdiamond]

I complete agree - many people do want to buy from a walk in store.
My apologies as I was not aware a particular seller had been mentioned.

 

[MollyMalone]

To give credit where credit is due, the vast majority of the diamonds in DD's online, in-house inventory have GIA reports.

 

[mwk_diamond]

For what it's worth ... I have posted a better file of the EGL report on the original emerald cut ...

Thanks again, many thanks again for all the help and advice.