Eleven Year Old Arrested For Refusing To Say Pledge of Allegiance

[Slickk]

It seems everything is so strange and weird to you. Look up gaslighting. You probably never taught rough middle schoolers is what Sanders meant.

Growing up during the good old days amongst inner city kids doesn’t compare at all to what brave teachers today have to deal with. The article mentioned that the boy made threats and been disruptive, and was asked to leave the room over 20 times. There’s nothing wrong standing up for what you believe in but certain level of conformity should be expected of the citizens enjoying the security and benefits of this nation. You don’t want someone disrupting your theater experience because someone believes in dancing naked in front of a movie screen do you?

+1 Thank you @cocotate

I actually have students who don’t stand for the pledge, even today. I will never force the issue because I know what they heard, saw, lived through the night before at home. I’m just relieved and happy to see their face in school, even if it is surly. The sub was wrong, I agree. But IMHO the boy took out his anger at life in an unacceptable manner, especially with the School Resource Officer. Something I see all too often as well, no respect for authority.

I don’t have enough time to debate this @House Cat . I didn’t mean to imply you had no experience with inner city middle schoolers but I agree with @cocotate in that it is a whole different world from when I grew up. I don’t know what generation you are from. What I do know, from my many years in my job, is that times have changed and kids are much more aggressive and insolent than ever!

Like @ksinger said, one can’t be too careful or remiss just because my they are only tweens.

I am bowing out of this thread now...

 

[cocotate]

+1 Thank you @cocotate

I actually have students who don’t stand for the pledge, even today. I will never force the issue because I know what they heard, saw, lived through the night before at home. I’m just relieved and happy to see their face in school, even if it is surly. The sub was wrong, I agree. But IMHO the boy took out his anger at life in an unacceptable manner, especially with the School Resource Officer. Something I see all too often as well, no respect for authority.

I don’t have enough time to debate this @House Cat . I didn’t mean to imply you had no experience with inner city middle schoolers but I agree with @cocotate in that it is a whole different world from when I grew up. I don’t know what generation you are from. What I do know, from my many years in my job, is that times have changed and kids are much more aggressive and insolent than ever!

Like @ksinger said, one can’t be too careful or remiss just because my they are only tweens.

I am bowing out of this thread now...

Sandeek, I admire people like you. It is too clear your heart is golden and pure. Please ignore the petty irrational people who seem to enjoy snapping at others online. God bless you!

 

[AGBF]

I have not seen any petty or irrational people snapping in this thread, but perhaps I am not seeing things correctly. I have seen people reacting emotionally to a subject that is, apparently, emotionally charged for a lot of us. We have all been students. Many of are or have been parents of students. Many of us have been teachers. We all are interested observers of the social scene here in the United States. Therefore, I think, it feels personal to many of us. But (as I said) that's just my view.

Deb

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

My Godson is 11 and I love spending time with him. He sleeps over almost every week and I learn so much from him and I hope he learns from me. I would hate, hate, hate to be a part of any situation that contributed to an 11 year old getting arrested over his/her opinion or belief. My co-worker described the angst in her house over the weekend due to her 13 year old daughter being accused of making fun of her friend's lunch box. The drama, the struggle for a teen or tween is real.

With that said, I taught my children that adults like their peers can be unreasonable and have strong opinions. So if my kids felt targeted by a teacher their best line of defense was to become invisible. No talking back, no fuel to the fire. Not always fair but a good life lesson to teach our kids in picking and choosing their battles. An 11 year old who is not taught this valuable life lesson may become a grown adult teacher who would have been better served to have been taught this.

Disclaimer: Just my opinion which holds no more or less weight than anyone else's opinion.

 

[Maria D]

+1 Thank you @cocotate

I actually have students who don’t stand for the pledge, even today. I will never force the issue because I know what they heard, saw, lived through the night before at home. I’m just relieved and happy to see their face in school, even if it is surly. The sub was wrong, I agree. But IMHO the boy took out his anger at life in an unacceptable manner, especially with the School Resource Officer. Something I see all too often as well, no respect for authority.

I don’t have enough time to debate this @House Cat . I didn’t mean to imply you had no experience with inner city middle schoolers but I agree with @cocotate in that it is a whole different world from when I grew up. I don’t know what generation you are from. What I do know, from my many years in my job, is that times have changed and kids are much more aggressive and insolent than ever!

Like @ksinger said, one can’t be too careful or remiss just because my they are only tweens.

I am bowing out of this thread now...

The only thing I ask of my students during the daily pledge routine is to either participate by standing and reciting (I don't care if their hand is placed over their heart) or remain silent. If they want to sit, lie down or kneel that's fine with me as long as they don't disrupt anyone else's pledge time.

I had one student transferred into my homeroom because he refused to stand for the pledge. His prior homeroom teacher found this behavior intolerable and confronted him daily on it, leading to escalation that caused him to be suspended for a day after he swore at her. They moved him to my room, I let him be and we had no discipline issues between us. I think the other teacher should have been reprimanded for giving him a hard time in the first place. As @ksinger pointed out, the most disturbing thing about the article should have been that the school required a note from home to opt out of something that students are within their rights not to do in the first place.

Adults are far better than adolescents and children at pushing confrontation up to but not over the line. That's what my colleague and this substitute did. Get the kid all riled up until they finally act out. Yes, of course there needs to be a consequence for the acting out. Thankfully in this case the child will not actually be prosecuted.

I feel that there should also be consequences for people that involve law enforcement just because they are uncomfortable about something. If someone is agitated by a child selling lemonade or a person hanging out at Starbucks waiting for a friend or someone napping in the common area of their dorm or a child refusing to take part in the pledge they should NOT be calling the cops. Yes, all those are situations where a white person called the cops on a black person. That is why this is an issue that brings out strong emotions. I would hope that the substitute is never called back into that school district.

 

[Maria D]

The Polk County Public Schools released a statement on the incident.

"To be clear, the student was NOT arrested for refusing to participate in the pledge; students are not required to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance (see F.S. 1003.44, as well as page 5 of the Code of Student Conduct).

Unfortunately, a substitute teacher was not aware of this, and she engaged in an exchange of words with the student and called the school’s administration to come to her classroom. The school’s resource officer, who is permanently assigned to the campus, also responded to the substitute’s classroom but was not called by the administration regarding the incident.

The School Resource Officer (SRO) made the decision to arrest the student. No one from the school requested charges to be pressed or for an arrest to be made.

The substitute teacher, hired by Kelly Services, was asked to leave campus immediately after providing a written statement.

Disciplinary measures were taken in accordance with the district’s Code of Conduct, and were fully discussed with both the student and family.

We are looking into this matter, but this substitute will no longer be allowed to work at any of our schools. Our HR department has made contact with Kelly Services, which provides our substitutes, to further refine how our substitutes are trained.

We do not condone the substitute’s behavior. We respect our students’ right to freedom of expression and we are committed to protecting that critical right while ensuring peaceful classrooms so all students can learn."

So, the district is saying that the substitute didn't call for the SRO and neither did administration but the SRO showed up anyway. Hmmm...smells a bit fishy to me. Reads to me as though the district is preemptively defending themselves against any legal actions and deflecting blame to Kelly Services.

I'm glad this woman's substitute teaching career is likely over.

 

[ksinger]

The Polk County Public Schools released a statement on the incident.

"To be clear, the student was NOT arrested for refusing to participate in the pledge; students are not required to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance (see F.S. 1003.44, as well as page 5 of the Code of Student Conduct).

Unfortunately, a substitute teacher was not aware of this, and she engaged in an exchange of words with the student and called the school’s administration to come to her classroom. The school’s resource officer, who is permanently assigned to the campus, also responded to the substitute’s classroom but was not called by the administration regarding the incident.

The School Resource Officer (SRO) made the decision to arrest the student. No one from the school requested charges to be pressed or for an arrest to be made.

The substitute teacher, hired by Kelly Services, was asked to leave campus immediately after providing a written statement.

Disciplinary measures were taken in accordance with the district’s Code of Conduct, and were fully discussed with both the student and family.

We are looking into this matter, but this substitute will no longer be allowed to work at any of our schools. Our HR department has made contact with Kelly Services, which provides our substitutes, to further refine how our substitutes are trained.

We do not condone the substitute’s behavior. We respect our students’ right to freedom of expression and we are committed to protecting that critical right while ensuring peaceful classrooms so all students can learn."

So, the district is saying that the substitute didn't call for the SRO and neither did administration but the SRO showed up anyway. Hmmm...smells a bit fishy to me. Reads to me as though the district is preemptively defending themselves against any legal actions and deflecting blame to Kelly Services.

I'm glad this woman's substitute teaching career is likely over.

Well, he found out somehow. Someone "called" him. My guess is that the SRO was probably hanging out in the office when the call came, so strictly speaking, that's probably a true statement: he wasn't called, more like admin said, "Hey you wanna come with me? We have a little problem in X room."

Pure speculation of course. The whole situation was a CF. And contracting out to Kelly Services to find subs?? I haven't checked Florida to see if their teachers are on the run like they are here, but I suspect they're having similar problems - they're happening everywhere. But then de-professionalizing education is the goal, so no one should be surprised. Sigh. But man, public education is in dire DIRE straits in the US now. Anyway, clearly that district is not getting its money's worth using Kelly. They should find the local day-labor place and get them from there. They're already terrible (it seems) and at least they could get terrible subs a whole lot cheaper that way.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Just a thought-- Why is it that the boy or his fellow classmates did not inform the sub that students are allowed to not participate in standing or saying the pledge. I would think if saying the pledge is a symbol representing some idea of the student that he could have explained to the sub that he had been allowed to do this all yr and why.. I have been a sub myself and would have appreciated this bit of information. In fact, while my sub days are over, I did not know this was in the bill of rights for middleschool students. If the student is exercising his rights, he ought to be able to explain them.

I'm with Lisa here. If the teacher says do it- I say student do it. I am not appalled by the teacher, as many of you sound. After all our football league felt strongly on both sides about kneeling. I support the kneeling for adults, but civic lessons for young students are vital, and if the student can't explain why he does this, he can't have been taught well.--Yes, I know its his "right".

Annette

 

[telephone89]

If the student is exercising his rights, he ought to be able to explain them.
I support the kneeling for adults, but civic lessons for young students are vital, and if the student can't explain why he does this, he can't have been taught well.--Yes, I know its his "right".

What makes you think he can't/didn't explain it? There is very little info about what was actually said, this sounds like conjecture.

 

[JPie]

civic lessons for young students are vital, and if the student can't explain why he does this, he can't have been taught well.--Yes, I know its his "right".

From the article that AGBF posted: "The boy told the teacher that he did not stand because he believes the pledge represents racism."

 

[telephone89]

I wanted to look for an update on this. The kid has apparently changed schools.

He was not the only child not standing for the pledge, but was singled out.
The sub allegedly told him to "go back to where you came from" "you mean africa?" "yes" "you are our teacher and should not be talking to students that way" at this point sub calls security (or whoever was called).
(per the resource officer statement) "he continued to yell that the teacher had told him to "go back to africa" Resource officer asked him to leave 20+ times. He said "I'm not leaving. Do your job and take her. Shes the racist who told me to go back to africa"
Student asked to call his mother and was refused.
Student continued yelling in the hall "youre all racist" "I'm going to get you all fired" "I'm going to beat that teacher"

Up until that last part, damn, I don't even see how he was in the wrong.

https://www.ocala.com/news/20190219...after-not-standing-for-pledge-plans-complaint

 

[cocotate]

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news...-arrested-refused-pledge-of-allegiance-school

 

[JPie]

I wanted to look for an update on this. The kid has apparently changed schools.

He was not the only child not standing for the pledge, but was singled out.
The sub allegedly told him to "go back to where you came from" "you mean africa?" "yes" "you are our teacher and should not be talking to students that way" at this point sub calls security (or whoever was called).
(per the resource officer statement) "he continued to yell that the teacher had told him to "go back to africa" Resource officer asked him to leave 20+ times. He said "I'm not leaving. Do your job and take her. Shes the racist who told me to go back to africa"
Student asked to call his mother and was refused.
Student continued yelling in the hall "youre all racist" "I'm going to get you all fired" "I'm going to beat that teacher"

Up until that last part, damn, I don't even see how he was in the wrong.

https://www.ocala.com/news/20190219...after-not-standing-for-pledge-plans-complaint

This is exactly why I do not think it's reasonable to expect children to obey school and law enforcement authorities at all times.

 

[ksinger]

Hi,

Just a thought-- Why is it that the boy or his fellow classmates did not inform the sub that students are allowed to not participate in standing or saying the pledge. I would think if saying the pledge is a symbol representing some idea of the student that he could have explained to the sub that he had been allowed to do this all yr and why.. I have been a sub myself and would have appreciated this bit of information. In fact, while my sub days are over, I did not know this was in the bill of rights for middleschool students. If the student is exercising his rights, he ought to be able to explain them.

I'm with Lisa here. If the teacher says do it- I say student do it. I am not appalled by the teacher, as many of you sound. After all our football league felt strongly on both sides about kneeling. I support the kneeling for adults, but civic lessons for young students are vital, and if the student can't explain why he does this, he can't have been taught well.--Yes, I know its his "right".

Annette

It is not the responsibility of the students to inform the sub of school rules. She is the supposed adult, who is drawing a paycheck, not the children. And the antiquated school policy/rule about the pledge is just one that has not been challenged yet in that district, (rules like that usually do hang around until someone gets bold enough to object), because requiring a signed form from a parent releasing the child from compulsory recitation of a creed/pledge while compelled to stand on his head burping square nickels, or compelled to simply stand, is unconstitutional. Just like forcing children in public school to bow their heads and pray to (insert preferred deity here) is unconstitutional. And children are under no obligation to verbally defend their right to free(dom from forced political) speech in order to exercise it.

His belligerence aside, the kid knew exactly why he was not participating, and stated so. The sub and you may not agree with his reasons, but he most certainly knew why and owes no one an explanation.

That sub. Sheesh. The sub deserved to lose that job at the very least. I hope her reputation follows her around and she can't find a job anywhere in a Florida school. But I'm sure she will. If the schools are so desperate and understaffed that they're getting subs from a staffing agency, things are in bad shape. They're probably not far from only requiring being over 18 and having a pulse in order to "teach" kids.

 

[cocotate]

I wanted to look for an update on this. The kid has apparently changed schools.

He was not the only child not standing for the pledge, but was singled out.
The sub allegedly told him to "go back to where you came from" "you mean africa?" "yes" "you are our teacher and should not be talking to students that way" at this point sub calls security (or whoever was called).
(per the resource officer statement) "he continued to yell that the teacher had told him to "go back to africa" Resource officer asked him to leave 20+ times. He said "I'm not leaving. Do your job and take her. Shes the racist who told me to go back to africa"
Student asked to call his mother and was refused.
Student continued yelling in the hall "youre all racist" "I'm going to get you all fired" "I'm going to beat that teacher"

Up until that last part, damn, I don't even see how he was in the wrong.

https://www.ocala.com/news/20190219...after-not-standing-for-pledge-plans-complaint

Could you post the exact reference to where you found your quotes? Especially the part about “you mean Africa” and “you’re our teacher....”
I couldn’t find it anywhere. Thanks.

 

[cocotate]

Most articles I read mentions that the boy threatened to beat up the female sub teacher and ultimately got charged because of subsequent disruptions and resisting an officer. Should any teacher be open to potential violence?

 

[AGBF]

It is not the responsibility of the students to inform the sub of school rules. She is the supposed adult, who is drawing a paycheck, not the children.

I am so glad that you found a polite way to answer Annette, ksinger. I could not come up with one immediately after reading her posting and decided it would be better to exercise restraint of pen and tongue at that point. Thank you for your rational, but very clear, rebuttal of her argument.

AGBF

 

[monarch64]

Most articles I read mentions that the boy threatened to beat up the female sub teacher and ultimately got charged because of subsequent disruptions and resisting an officer. Should any teacher be open to potential violence?

Please extend the courtesy of posting sources since you JUST asked someone else to cite references for quotes.

 

[smitcompton]

HI,

I see that he did explain why he didn't recite the pledge. It may not be the responsibility of the 11 yr old to inform the teacher, but I am glad he had the sense to do it. This is surely a situation that did not warrant the police. I see the teacher did not listen, nor did she know the rules.

I have never thought of the pledge as being racist. I see the recitation as being part of our shared experience. Its rote and there have been times in my life that I appreciated the words.

I thank you Deb for restraining yourself.

Annette

 

[cocotate]

Please extend the courtesy of posting sources since you JUST asked someone else to cite references for quotes.

It had already been posted earlier. Besides you can easily google search “Ana Alvarez” “I’m going to beat that teacher” with many results.

 

[ksinger]

HI,

I see that he did explain why he didn't recite the pledge. It may not be the responsibility of the 11 yr old to inform the teacher, but I am glad he had the sense to do it. This is surely a situation that did not warrant the police. I see the teacher did not listen, nor did she know the rules.

I have never thought of the pledge as being racist. I see the recitation as being part of our shared experience. Its rote and there have been times in my life that I appreciated the words.

I thank you Deb for restraining yourself.

Annette

No, it probably did not require an officer. And to be frank, we see this all the time now - administration flat out unwilling to do anything relating to disciplinary actions. So you either see the teachers being burdened with trying to discipline via a referral, with zero support from admin, who then lets a known disruption/potential danger BACK into the classroom thus undermining teacher authority and class control, OR admin (as it looks in this case) is too chickenshit to even try to handle things on their own, and bring the big guns (literally) with them from the start.

And the sub (let's not call her a teacher - she doesn't deserve the title) did not just not know school rules, she was ignorant of the our constitution and history. And is probably quite certain in her massive ignorance, that she's on the right side of everything.

Annette, I'm happy for you that you see the pledge as not racist, and that reciting it is not a burden or an unwelcome social pressure. But the issue is not about what you find comfortable, and clearly you don't find it comfortable, to know that some people don't at all like the rote pledge that you have loved and appreciated. It's about allowing people to express their experience and views without pressure to conform.

I did not know (before just looking this up) of cases addressing students and free speech, but was fairly certain given how hard-fought has been the acknowledgement of children as humans with rights, rather than the chattel they have been in times past, that there was one, probably more than one. So sure enough, it wasn't much of stretch to be right, that schools have attempted to restrict students' political speech, and have been challenged on it. So....there's a handy SC case for that!

Freedom of political speech as it applies to students in Tinker vs Des Moines:
https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-spee...e-court-milestone-students-free-speech-rights

"The court went on to affirm the freedom that young people have under the Constitution:

In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students… are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State. In our system, students may not be regarded as closed-circuit recipients of only that which the State chooses to communicate. They may not be confined to the expression of those sentiments that are officially approved. In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views."

So refusing to recite or stand, and being able to do so without being verbally molested by a school official, seems pretty thoroughly covered by this case alone, IMO.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Racism ???

 

[monarch64]

It had already been posted earlier. Besides you can easily google search “Ana Alvarez” “I’m going to beat that teacher” with many results.

Yeah, I can easily search lots of related keywords, thanks! You didn't bother to acknowledge that you pressed another poster to back up her sources, did you?
I'm really curious about your motives in this thread since you've specifically called out another member for gaslighting, etc. Why? You've posted on Pricescope less than 20 times. What's your vendetta? Most folks here know that HC has frequently talked about her mental health issues. Really curious as to why you'd either 1. be purposely ignorant or 2. willingly exacerbate/try to escalate them.
But please tell me I'm imagining all of this.

 

[cocotate]

Yeah, I can easily search lots of related keywords, thanks! You didn't bother to acknowledge that you pressed another poster to back up her sources, did you?
I'm really curious about your motives in this thread since you've specifically called out another member for gaslighting, etc. Why? You've posted on Pricescope less than 20 times. What's your vendetta? Most folks here know that HC has frequently talked about her mental health issues. Really curious as to why you'd either 1. be purposely ignorant or 2. willingly exacerbate/try to escalate them.
But please tell me I'm imagining all of this.

What vendettas? Am I supposed to walk on eggshells and be aware of people’s mental conditions before responding on these forums? Deliberately posting inaccurate quotes and hearsay seem more like a political vendetta?

 

[cocotate]

Also please see post 41. I didn’t think a duplicate reference was necessary.
I do think it’s completely disrespectful and ungrateful to our veterans and all those who have sacrificed their lives for the freedom of this nation. It seems everything is racism nowadays. National anthem, the flag, pledge allegiance, and what next? Tax and religions? Come on people.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Well, it nice to say I learned something on this thread. Jpie, thanks for sending me in the right direction. Ksinger, as always, your instruction is very valuable. I knew none of this. I am not sure yet how I think and feel about these rights of students. Of course the constitution wins over what I think, but I will still have to think a bit on this. I really don't care if a student sits during the pledge or not. I do care what it ultimately teaches the child. I do appreciate learning this.

Annette

 

[AGBF]

It seems everything is racism nowadays. National anthem, the flag, pledge allegiance, and what next? Tax and religions? Come on people.

I am not sure what you mean by, "it seems everything is racism nowadays". It strikes me that you are complaining that racism is being called to the attention of the populace and that you would prefer that it be left to lie dormant and unaddressed.

I see racism as a great social problem and welcome its being brought to the attention of those who are oblivious of its many tentacles. For example, voter suppression since the death of the Voting Rights Act has been a scourge on the United States.

Police brutality against minorities is far greater than against whites.

There is racial injustice in this country.

 

[cocotate]

So you are upset that things can’t and will never be completely ideal and have a problem with “freedom and justice for all” in the pledge slanting hypocrisy?

So iis it ok for people like Jussie Smollett to create the spectacle of the social injustice by hiring thugs to exaggerate the “tentacles?”

Have you ever thought some people’s hatred of the law enforcement to be prejudice towards the honorable occupation not so different in mentality from injust racism?

Our kids should be raised to be grateful for at least 10 things each and every day to be more positive contributors and patriots. Don’t skew the facts to chance them to grow up to be angry entitled punks, disrupt society, and be defiant to any authority because that’ll never end well before they really learn to think for themselves.

I don’t know about you but I appreciate this great nation!
My turn to bow out. Have a great discussion.

 

[AGBF]

So you are upset that things can’t and will never be completely ideal and have a problem with “freedom and justice for all” in the pledge slanting hypocrisy?

I am not sure who the "you" is that you are addressing. If it is I, I never spoke about the pledge in the context of racism. I simply addressed your having said that "everything is racism nowadays", which I think is a fatuous comment.

Your going on and on about extraneous topics like Jussy (?) Smolett is just diversion and distraction from what is being discussed.

AGBF

 

[Maria D]

snip

That sub. Sheesh. The sub deserved to lose that job at the very least. I hope her reputation follows her around and she can't find a job anywhere in a Florida school. But I'm sure she will. If the schools are so desperate and understaffed that they're getting subs from a staffing agency, things are in bad shape. They're probably not far from only requiring being over 18 and having a pulse in order to "teach" kids.

I rolled my eyes upon seeing Kelly Services too. I didn't even realize that temp agency was still around - it was called Kelly Girl when I got jobs through them during school breaks. Back then I was hired out for things like inventory counting, data entry, typing & answering phones - never substitute teaching!

My own district has a hard time getting subs. They had to increase the daily pay rate this year because it was no longer meeting minimum wage. The requirement is at least two years of college credits. Why bother when you can make the same amount being a Walmart greeter? I subbed middle school years ago and received no training at all. Like your husband, I agree that middle school is the worst. Anyone who can teach that age group well has my respect & admiration. Congrats to your husband on retirement! I've got another 8 years, hope I can make it.