EGL-Israel...Lesson Learned! Off 3 Colors!

[solange]

If the vendor did not know that the EGL report was so far off and that the stone had been recut from another shape, how can you trust him to steer you in the right direction with an much more expensive stone.
It seems to me that since you have an appraiser's word that he misrepresented the stone, you might have some recourse through the Better Business Bureau or some other agency. I think it would be very unwise to tie up even more money with someone who either has very little knowledge of diamonds or deliberately misled you.
If you can possibly get your money back, I would not give him the satisfaction of further business. Your fiance obviously knows that you fully intend to buy her a ring. Why rush into something from someone who misled you in the past when there are so many other, more reliable options. I do not think you could have had this kind of problem with one of the reliable Pricescope vendors on here who value their reputations. I doubt that any one of them would have sent out such an inaccurately described stone.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/20/2006 9:39:56 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 1/20/2006 12:20:03 PM
Author: DiaGem
Why complain about EGL-Israel only? Since the Color and Clarity grades on certified Diamonds are based on opinion only...

Then the rumors around tells that GIA color and clarity grades might also be TWO off!

So these days i wouldnt know which Labratory to trust...

I guess eventually things go back..., and maybe we would have no choice than to purchase diamonds as in the old days..., trusting our sences!!!

DiaGem, there is no comparison between a GIA report and an EGL-Israel report.

I would take even a bribed GIA report over an EGL-Israel report anyday.

Truth is the GIA scandal involved only a small amount of very large, expensive stones. To cast dispersions on the entire lot of GIA stones is uncalled for, and unfair.

To ask a consumer to ''trust their senses'' is asking too much. They are looking for fair evaluations, and this can only be determined by independent grading. GIA on its worst day is better than EGL-Israel on its best.

There is a very close tolerance among labs ethically grading. Pricescope''s survey illustrates this. Don''t throw out the baby with the bath water.

Richard, can i comment?

Firstly, we dont know who apprased the Diamond in subject, let us not forget that all diamond color and clarity grades are based on "opinion" only, the fact that the GIA is stricter doesnt make them right, it does though make most GIA graded Diamonds more expensive than others.

Secondly, I think that a price was quoted on this specific Diamond ($3,595), and i thought it was not realistic for this kind of Color and Clarity
(a one carat E-VS2), meaning the vendor whomever it was, was 100% fair..., i hope you will agree with me on that one.

Now let us both be fair and cautious regarding the GIA scandal..., If you think that there were "a few" bribed GIA certificates out there, than please do agree with me that in a business that is BASED on "TRUST" this behaviour is UN-Acceptable!!!!

Now please correct me if i am wrong, one of the press releases from the GIA on this matter said "Handfull of Diamonds". That means that other than the GIA no one knows exactly what kind and how many Diamonds were involved in the scandal.

And if i recall correct, one of the first GIA press releases regarding this unpleasant scandal said, "we would defend ourselves vigorously". In my opinion an organization like the GIA could not affort to reach setlement regarding their "reputation". But that is my personal opinion only.
But one thing is for sure, the reason quoted for this setlement is simply outragious, this was in the GIA statement for setlement:

“After reviewing the GIA grading reports, the parties agreed that the grades at issue involved areas of subjectivity and fell within industry standards.”

Richard, I am certain that you know what two grades were involved in this press release, and you know its bigtime "BS"

Unfortunatly I really believe that the GIA "shot themselves in the leg" with this episode, only time will tell, but I do know for a fact, A huge amount of industry members are extremely pissed at the GIA these days.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/21/2006 12:34:20 PM
Author: DiaGem


Secondly, I think that a price was quoted on this specific Diamond ($3,595), and i thought it was not realistic for this kind of Color and Clarity (a one carat E-VS2), meaning the vendor whomever it was, was 100% fair...

Leaving the story of whose grades are good, bad or ugly... is this practice nearly as fair as it seems popular?

Even your post says that the description as E/VS was not realistic. And that was what set the buyer''s expectations and perception of the price as a favorable one. More practically, this unrealistic description had the very real effect: the offer got compared against other E-VS rather than H-VS options. As long as the description of the goods distorts buyer''s decision in an unrealistic way, it doesn''t sound quite fair to me.

Ok, this may be common practice but it could never work when it is known, and this tells me that the seller did not imply the buyer knows what the description truly means.

Sure enough, I never had to sell jewelry and otherwise never met a client who would truly want to be mislead into believing his own wishful thinking.

Anyway, diamonds are just cute baubles... E, H, G... whatever, as far as I am concerned. It better be that my doctor doesn''t do the same about his service: that would definitely get me mad on him (or dead).

 

[diagem]

True, and well said, then why drive consumer crazy with information that takes decades to absorb...

And Val., I didnt say what was not realistic, the grade''s or the price...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 1/21/2006 12:34:20 PM
Author: DiaGem

Firstly, we dont know who apprased the Diamond in subject,

Aren't we talking about a diamond certed by EGL-Israel and then appraised by Nancy Stacey?

Both these entities have well established reputations. EGL-Israel as extremely lax graders, and Nancy Stacey as a high integrity grader.

let us not forget that all diamond color and clarity grades are based on 'opinion' only, the fact that the GIA is stricter doesnt make them right,

I hear this argument a lot from dealers trying to muddy the waters in regards to diamond grading, usually in an effort to try and justify selling their over-graded goods. I'm not saying that is the case with you, I'm merely saying it is a tired argument which I have heard often.

The truth is that a properly trained and experienced gemologist of high integrity using proper equipment and diamond masters will usually grade the same or very close to the organization which originated the diamond grading system (the GIA, and their respective GTL labs).

This is illustrated very well in Pricescope's survey of three good labs, the GIA, the AGS and EGL-USA. These labs were never more than the industry accepted tolerance of one grade different from another.

The GIA is not "stricter". They are the standard. They have the original set of diamond master grading stones and developed the grading system in existence today.

it does though make most GIA graded Diamonds more expensive than others.

It's interesting how the market always adjusts to reality, isn't it? People are willing to pay more for a certed stone in whose grade they have confidence than in one they don't.

Secondly, I think that a price was quoted on this specific Diamond ($3,595), and i thought it was not realistic for this kind of Color and Clarity

Agreed.

(a one carat E-VS2), meaning the vendor whomever it was, was 100% fair..., i hope you will agree with me on that one.

I'm assuming you're meaning the vendor was fair in that he sold the diamond for the correct price for what it really was?

Yes, he didn't overcharge for what the diamond really was. But doesn't that strike you as funny?

I mean, here he represents the stone as an (unrealistic) E/VS2 yet charges a (realistic) price of an H/VS2.

Doesn't that say something in itself? To me it says that he knew full well the correct grading on the stone. What dealer on earth would give away an E/VS2 at an H/VS2 price?

I'm sorry, but I guess I'm just a little tired of this nonsense after seeing it played out over and over again these past 26 years. High integrity no-nonsense dealers lose sales continuously to low integrity (or naive) dealers who (knowingly or unknowingly) misrepresent their goods. Unknowledgeable trusting consumers purchase the diamonds in good faith trusting the dealer and his "paper", in this case an EGL-Israel cert.

Sometimes they find out quickly, like the originator of this topic, or sometimes they find out 5 years later when the diamond is re-appraised for insurance purposes. Either way, they always feel lied to, even if the price they paid was fair. This often gives them an understandable (although undeserved) low opinion of the entire industry.

Now let us both be fair and cautious regarding the GIA scandal..., If you think that there were 'a few' bribed GIA certificates out there, than please do agree with me that in a business that is BASED on 'TRUST' this behaviour is UN-Acceptable!!!!

I agree. But let's put this in perspective. You're talking about a huge lab with hundreds of graders. In this case a handful of graders took advantage of the system to line their own pockets. They slipped past GIA's quality control system, which will probably never happen again once GIA revamps their QC so this cannot happen again. They've already taken several dramatic steps to make sure it doesn't, as well as trying to correct any damage by offering regrading to clients, etc.

Compare this to a lab which so consistently overgrades that no dealer takes their reports seriously. There's no comparison, and saying that it is merely a "difference of opinion" is to undermine consumer confidence in a system which functions at a very close tolerance among properly trained & equipped ethical graders.

Now please correct me if i am wrong, one of the press releases from the GIA on this matter said 'Handfull of Diamonds'. That means that other than the GIA no one knows exactly what kind and how many Diamonds were involved in the scandal.

Have you run across any GIA certed stones which you regarded as "criminally graded"? I haven't, and I have examined GIA certed stones almost daily for twenty years.

I believe we're talking about a small amount of very large, expensive diamonds graded by a handful of (unethical) graders influenced by a very few (unethical) dealers.

And if i recall correct, one of the first GIA press releases regarding this unpleasant scandal said, 'we would defend ourselves vigorously'. In my opinion an organization like the GIA could not affort to reach setlement regarding their 'reputation'. But that is my personal opinion only.

Let's assume for a moment you ran a lab composed of hundreds of graders, and found out that a handful had an operation going on that you would never have allowed to happen had you known about it.

Wouldn't you defend your reputation "vigorously"? Would you be willing to accept allegations that your company was unethical, because of this handful of "bad apples"?

The GIA has had thousands of graders over decades in existence putting out reliable reports which the industry has come to rely on. To suddenly say that none of their work can be trusted is over-reacting.

But one thing is for sure, the reason quoted for this setlement is simply outragious, this was in the GIA statement for setlement:

“After reviewing the GIA grading reports, the parties agreed that the grades at issue involved areas of subjectivity and fell within industry standards.”

Richard, I am certain that you know what two grades were involved in this press release, and you know its bigtime 'BS'

Yes, it's an attempt to minimize and contain the situation with "damage control" tactics.

Maybe not the way you and I would do it, but understandable in the world of business politics.

Unfortunatly I really believe that the GIA 'shot themselves in the leg' with this episode, only time will tell, but I do know for a fact, A huge amount of industry members are extremely pissed at the GIA these days.

Just think of the chaos that would exist without the GIA. Their standards and reports serve a very real purpose in stabilizing the diamond industry. Industry members are only "shooting themselves in the leg" by using this episode to erode consumer confidence in proper diamond grading.

 

[diagem]

Nicely answered, but i still dont agree that the GIA is the "god" of all certs, I have witnessed some unlikely grades issued by the GIA to both sides.
Personally, i dont see a difference between any EGL certs, (except Belgium, and you know why)

Yes, we (The industry players) made it posible for the GIA to become the Brand leader...

Regarding appraisers, sorry I think most of them have limited knowledge for the service they offer, (and i am not aiming at anyone in particular)

"A handfull of graders" will still put a strain on rebuilding trust, and i would not run and guarantee that "this could not happen again".

Not yet, i havent seen any IF graded Diamonds with 10X VVS''s in them, but i saw some crazy inconsistency''s between grades, even quite a few double jumps.

I strongly agree with you on the "unethical dealers" situation, and i hope the law will take care of them the legal way, since the GIA was not capable of disclosing their ID''s. I do know for a fact that the industry is taking their actions severly and at least two of them are (for the time being) OUT OF BUSINESS>

"To suddenly say that none of their work can be trusted is over-reacting." Naturaly you are correct, but i do think that an organization as powerfull as the GIA cant affort to emergency settle this case just because the day before it poped to the General Media. If they fought for this many months, they should have ended it by proving they had a handfull of bad apples.

I dont agree with you that this industry would not survive without the GIA, yes the GIA is an important factor in our "Marketing Strategies" but this wonderfull world of GEMS have lasted in the past without the GIA, it will survive without the GIA, (IF it needed). The GEM is to Historical Rooted.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 1/21/2006 4:49:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Personally, i dont see a difference between any EGL certs, (except Belgium, and you know why)

You don't see a difference in the grading between EGL-USA and EGL-Israel?

Regarding appraisers, sorry I think most of them have limited knowledge for the service they offer, (and i am not aiming at anyone in particular)

Appraisers are like the individuals in any profession. 20% stink, 60% are mediocre to good, 20% excell.

'A handfull of graders' will still put a strain on rebuilding trust, and i would not run and guarantee that 'this could not happen again'.

I seriously doubt you'll see it happen with GIA again.

Not yet, i havent seen any IF graded Diamonds with 10X VVS's in them, but i saw some crazy inconsistency's between grades, even quite a few double jumps.

By "double jumps" you mean two grades off? Such as a "J" being called an "H", or a "SI1" being called a "VS1"?

I sure haven't run across such inconsistencies in GIA-GTL graded stones.

I dont agree with you that this industry would not survive without the GIA, yes the GIA is an important factor in our 'Marketing Strategies' but this wonderfull world of GEMS have lasted in the past without the GIA, it will survive without the GIA, (IF it needed). The GEM is to Historical Rooted.

And rip-offs are historically rooted. Without independent gem laboratories to accurately report gem qualities, the consumer is totally at the mercy of the vendor. Most vendors would live up to this trust, but I shudder remembering some of the misrepresentations I've seen over the decades, particularly before the widespread use of independent lab reports.

To return to a pre-GIA or pre-independent lab era would be like going back to the Dark Ages.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 1/22/2006 12:17:24 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 1/21/2006 4:49:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Personally, i dont see a difference between any EGL certs, (except Belgium, and you know why)

You don''t see a difference in the grading between EGL-USA and EGL-Israel?

Regarding appraisers, sorry I think most of them have limited knowledge for the service they offer, (and i am not aiming at anyone in particular)

Appraisers are like the individuals in any profession. 20% stink, 60% are mediocre to good, 20% excell.

''A handfull of graders'' will still put a strain on rebuilding trust, and i would not run and guarantee that ''this could not happen again''.

I seriously doubt you''ll see it happen with GIA again.

Not yet, i havent seen any IF graded Diamonds with 10X VVS''s in them, but i saw some crazy inconsistency''s between grades, even quite a few double jumps.

By ''double jumps'' you mean two grades off? Such as a ''J'' being called an ''H'', or a ''SI1'' being called a ''VS1''?

I sure haven''t run across such inconsistencies in GIA-GTL graded stones.

I dont agree with you that this industry would not survive without the GIA, yes the GIA is an important factor in our ''Marketing Strategies'' but this wonderfull world of GEMS have lasted in the past without the GIA, it will survive without the GIA, (IF it needed). The GEM is to Historical Rooted.

And rip-offs are historically rooted. Without independent gem laboratories to accurately report gem qualities, the consumer is totally at the mercy of the vendor. Most vendors would live up to this trust, but I shudder remembering some of the misrepresentations I''ve seen over the decades, particularly before the widespread use of independent lab reports.

To return to a pre-GIA or pre-independent lab era would be like going back to the Dark Ages.

I have alot of confidence in GIA-GTL. I''ve seen a great deal of consistency in their grading over the years. No lab is perfect. Consistency and correctness in grading is what we all are looking for in this business. The unfortunate thing that plagues the industry is when dealers send a stone to a certain lab knowing that they are softer on color or clarity. This is a lingering annoyance. It''s bad for the industry.

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