EGL certified is still better than not certified?

[Moko]

Hi all,

Today I went to one of local jewlery stores to look for diamond stud earrings.
The store is not my regular jeweler, but I have their gift certificate, so I want to spend it toward diamond stud earrings.

I requested to show me the earrings in 1ctw in white gold, SI2 and above in clarity, H or I in color, Eye Clean. The sales person was very nice and helpful. She recommended me the earrings come with the EGL cert, which is:

Total Carat: 1.17 Ctw
Clarity: SI2
Color: E
EGL certified.
Price: $2,200

I am so used to look at VS quality (GIA certified stone) by loupe, so I was bit surprised when I found so many little white fuzzy things in these stones when I looked through my loupe. Maybe those stones need to be cleaned. I could not tell if they are inclusions. I was not sure if these earrings are good for the price.

The sales person highly recommended them because of this reasonable price for E color stones, plus come with the certificate. I said to her, “ …but I heard EGL is little softer than GIA “ Then she said “yes, it used to be, but now they are more strict and also it’s still better than having no certificate. These stones were sent to the lab to certified.” She said.
Hmmm, I checked other earrings. Yes, they are more expensive in H and I color in SI quality- more than $3000 above, and they do not come with any certificate.

She strongly suggested that I should put some deposit to hold, because it will be gone soon. But I was not sure, so I didn’t. I was not well prepared today -I still have not bought Ideal scope yet, so my plan is buy the scope first, then check these out.

Anyway, do you think having EGL certificate is still nice to have?
Are those stones are better quality than no certified stones?
What do you think?

 

[Splinter]

Interesting question. I never really thought about it because I''d never buy a stone that wasn''t AGS or GIA certified. I would take an EGL over no certification if I was forced to, but an even better idea is to have the uncertified stones sent to a decent lab. Although this doesn''t seem like a possibility in your case.

My opinion on certifications from labs is this:

Some labs grade tougher than others. If you''ve got a truly good stone, you''ll send it to a tough lab, because a good stone will always rate well. However, if you''ve got a poor stone that you want to grade bump, or if you''re more worried about turning a profit than selling a decent product, you''ll send your stone to whoever gives the most favourable report... regardless of how inaccurate it is.

And from what I''ve read, EGL is still not a great lab. Maybe other PS''ers can say otherwise?

If I were you, I''d steer clear. Sounds like the stone and the sales person are both half-baked...

 

[WinkHPD]

EGL USA perhaps.

EGL Israel or Europe, I would rather have no cert and buy from a jeweler that I trust.

By the way, if they are selling off of EGL Europe or Israel certs, then they have lost my trust.

Wink

P.S. The above was spoken in my wink the consumer voice. Obviously I am a vendor, but if I were a consumer, that is what I would say. Please take with appropriate grains of salt.

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. You do not say anything about cut, but a .58ct E-SI2 raps at 1,508, so two legitimate well cut E-SI2''s should be in the $3,000 just for the stones before the mountings.

Poor cut, less money, super duper the way we like them around here (at least some of us) add some bucks, but not too many.

You decide. Are those REALLY E-SI2''s???

Wink

 

[Splinter]

Date: 4/8/2008 6:07:05 PM
Author: Wink

By the way, if they are selling off of EGL Europe or Israel certs, then they have lost my trust.

Yep, that''s exactly what I thought too. If they''re selling on those certs, I''d come to the conclusion they''re trying to sucker me and would probably find a new jeweller.

 

[Allison D.]

I disagree that 'any certificate is better than no certificate'. That's akin to saying any opinion (regardless of qualifications) is better than none.

If I were a consumer considering a purchase in this situation, I'd consider a refundable return policy as the most important piece of the transaction. If you have a refund return window, that will give you the opportunity to get a qualified, expert opinion from a reputable independent appraiser and to return the stones if they don't meet your expectations according to the appraiser's evaluation.

That would be more important to me than 'any' grading report.

 

[Moko]

Splinter, Wink, Allison,

Thank you so much for your professional advice. Wink, I don't know how many times you helped me in the past in this forum. Thank you so much for sharing your knowlege and expertise. I can not say thank you enough.

I decided to pass those earrings. I was also very suspicious about the quality for this price, too.

I am not sure which EGL, but the sales person said “EGL is European," so maybe she meant EGL Europe. she also said they are well-cut stones, but I did not see the paper and I was not able tell from just looking at stones.

The problem is that I have $1500 value gift certificate from this store which my husband gave it to me. This is well-known reputable store in the area, so he thought I would shop there for upgrading my engagement ring. However, I did not find any setting I like there, so I bought my new ring from a different store and which made him a little upset

. So I was going to use the gift certificate on earrings there. The gift cert is non-refundable, so I need to get something from them, but now I don’t trust them too much after this.

Now I am thinking about asking them if I could buy a GIA certified pair.
Or just buy “one “ GIA certified loose stone from them. Then I will have it appraised. If everything is going well, then I will ask my regular jeweler (whom I can trust), to find another stone to make them to a matched pair. In this way, it will give me a choice of which setting I want the stones to be set. I am not sure how hard to find a perfectly matched stone. Does anyone know?

I will check their return/refund policy for my safety.

Once again, thank you so much for your useful advice.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 4/8/2008 6:55:57 PM
Author: Allison D.
I disagree that 'any certificate is better than no certificate'. That's akin to saying any opinion (regardless of qualifications) is better than none.


If I were a consumer considering a purchase in this situation, I'd consider a refundable return policy as the most important piece of the transaction. If you have a refund return window, that will give you the opportunity to get a qualified, expert opinion from a reputable independent appraiser and to return the stones if they don't meet your expectations according to the appraiser's evaluation.


That would be more important to me than 'any' grading report.

I’m with Allison. An unreliable grading report is worse than none at all because it comes with an illusion of credibility. The same is also true with choosing appraisers by the way. They're not all the same and some opinions are worth less than zero.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Moko]

Neil, thank you for helping me again!!
My regular jeweler is AGS jeweler but they also sell stud earrings, which does not come with any certificate. Last year I was looking at some of those earrings just for fun, I remember that those diamond (1Ctw / SI /H color) looked beautiful when I checked by my loupe. The price was around $3600 then. I thought they are overpriced for diamonds that does not even have any cert. Probably those non-certified stones are much better quality than SI/E in EGL Europe certified stones.

As to choosing appraisers, should we still be aware even if he/she has GG title?
If so, what should we avoid? Is there any red flag we can see?

 

[denverappraiser]

When you buy a diamond, or any jewelry item for that matter, the first person you are relying on is the seller. The lab is a confirmation and support of the trust you are placing in your jeweler, not as a substitute for it. I certainly agree that a quality lab inspection adds value and there’s an interesting discussion to be had over exactly how much and, since lab services aren’t free, at what point is it worth doing. I’m sure everyone would agree that for a 4 carater going for $50,000 it’s essential, and for a 20 pointer going for $150 it’s nuts. Different people will draw this line differently and it depends on your level of confidence in the jeweler but the alternative of using a crappy lab because they are cheaper, because they will omit information that may not be complimentary or because they will provide a better sounding description strikes me as equally nuts. Your first line of trust is that the jeweler will tell you the truth. How is this helped by a backup 2nd opinion that you have reason to suspect is false? If the jeweler is who you are relying on to tell you the accurate grading, what’s gained by providing the cert?

The 2nd (or 3rd) line of defense is the appraiser. To quote Ronald Regan, trust but verify. For this to be useful, the verifier needs to be and independent party who is at least as credible trustworthy as the jeweler or you haven’t gained anything. Here as well there’s a line that needs to be drawn. If you’re spending $100,000 an independent appraisal it’s clearly a sensible part of doing your due diligence and if you’re spending $200 it probably is not. Where to draw this line depends on you and the jeweler. Most good jewelers will provide you sufficient paperwork to bind an insurance policy and the good ones even do a pretty good job of documenting things. If you have sufficient trust in the jeweler relative to the cost and they provide reasonable documentation, then you have no particular need for an independent appraiser unless they offer better photographs, different tests or some similar service that’s of interest to you. On the other extreme, if you really don’t trust the jeweler at all you probably shouldn’t be doing business with them in the first place so, once again, it’s necessary to draw a line somewhere that fits your own comfort level.

G.G. is not an appraisal credential, it’s a gemological credential, and it’s the bare minimum requirement for anyone who is presenting themselves commercially as a gemologist in the US. The training for appraisals tends to be represented by those other initials that we put after our names. There are a variety of choices but the primary trainers are the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers, the American Society of Appraisers, the American Gem Society, and the International Society of Appraisers. Each offer several levels of training and qualification. I''m a fan of the ICGA''s from AGS, the MGA''s from ASA and the CSM''s from NAJA.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[whatmeworry]

Going back to the title of the post: "Is EGL certified better than not certified?". I know color/clarity differences are widely discussed here but don''t the major (and some mid-major) labs also test for clarity enhancements, HPHT, synthetic? Aren''t some of these tests difficult to carry out without major equipment? So going back to the original question, does EGL certification add value?