EGL Certifaction has wrong Crown %

[spon]

Hello All. I've got an interesting situation. I was at a local B&M this weekend looking at several stones. The jeweler had a Sarin machine at his desk, so as I saw stones that I liked, he would run Sarin reports for me. The was one particular stone that looked nice to me but that I didn't pay as much attention to b/c it wasn't certified as Ideal Cut by EGL and I was looking primarily for Ideal Cuts. Eventually I had the jeweler run the Sarin report on the stone and it turns out that the Table % was incorrectly listed on the EGL Certification. THe certification listed something like 54% but the real number (based on the Sarin reading) was 57%. The Sarin machine rated the Cut 0 (Ideal).

Will this effect the resale value of the ring down the? Or possibly the insurance appraisal, ect? Would it be possible for me to insist that the jeweler send it back to EGL to get it recertified before I purchase it? I like the stone and I think I'm getting a pretty good deal on it b/c it was priced off of the original "Verg Good" Cut grade and not the Sarin "Ideal" grade.

Thoughts?

 

[valeria101]

These measurements are not all that precise - truth could well be somewhere in the middle, as much as I know. Does it affect value? If you were paying for the specific set of numbers, than it sure does.

 

[Regular Guy]

In answer to your question, basically, I agree with Ana.

To add some perspective, though, where you say:

Date: 10/4/2005 2:21:22 AM
Author:spon
I was at a local B&M this weekend looking at several stones. The jeweler had a Sarin machine at his desk...

It may be worth noting that I've called Sarin for the location of their machines in the metropolitan DC area, and turned up with like 3 stores total. Unless you happened to do the same, although the likelihood is high that, if you say they had a sarin machine by their desk, they probably did, I just wonder for wherever you are, what the likelihood that your local B&M would have, by chance, actually had a sarin machine to begin with. Is there any chance whatsoever, that your guy has some box next to their desk that says: "sarin machine," and each time it is run, it comes out with ideal numbers? For retaliation against the consequences of fraud, it would seem the chance of this are small.

Note again, even though EGL is not the most respected certifying agency (AGS and GIA fit closer to this), more than a corner jeweler, if they post data concerning the measurements of a diamonds, they are generally counted to be relied upon as accurate, and would have been expected to use a high quality sarin machine or better to come up with their data. Calibration irregularities could be counted on to account for variation for what is correct for any sarin machine, and frankly, this is more likely to be the case for the corner B&M than a certifying agency.

For what it's worth, whenever I run a search of available options on this board, I exclude EGL from options being considered, which is not to say they aren't presented with some winning stones. Many threads here do talk about EGL, and you may find it helpful to read these.

Regards,

 

[denverappraiser]

Reselling diamonds as a consumer can be difficult. Although the affects on the resale market are possibly worth considering, I would not suggest making it a major part of your decision process.

A few notes about resale:

In the consumer to consumer resale market, EGL paper is seen as even more of a handicap than it is in the new market and prospective customers will demand a discount because of it.

Most dealers who buy from the public currently don’t pay much of a premium for better cut stones. There are exceptions, of course, but the ones that do will usually want to make their own determination about what they consider ideal and will not rely on the documentation that you provide. This determination may or may not be the same as the process you are going through now.

In the future, the definitions of what is the ‘best’ cut may also change. The rules for AGS-0, for example, have recently changed and the calculations automatically made by Sarin software no longer apply to the AGS system. In the course of a 2 paragraph question, you’ve used definitions of Ideal from 3 different sources, Sarin, EGL, and AGS. (which is who uses the zero) These are all different from one another.

In most cases, the best resale opportunity is a trade up program with the original dealer. For these, none of this will matter. If they offer you some sort of a trade-up or buy-back program, it will be about the details of the deal and whether you otherwise comply with the rules, not about the gemological properties of the stone.


About Sarin,
I have a hard time imagining a jeweler making a counterfeit Sarin machine. I have seen counterfeit and mismatched Sarin reports but I've never heard of such a thing coming from a dealer. The equipment does require occasional callibration and differences of 0.02 aren't all that unusual. To the best of my knowledge, both EGL and EGL-USA use Sarin equipment to measure their stones.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

While anything is possible i supose with the entry level sarin in the 5k range and the penialties for fraud high I cant see someone setting up a fake one.
That doesnt mean its properly calibrated however.

but a 54 vs 57 table should be a visible difference look at it under 10x with a gia diamond with a 57 table thats about the same size and compare.

 

[JohnQuixote]

I think making a fake one would not fool many people for very long. Someone would come in who had seen one in the past and say 'yo, that's just a shoebox with a sparkler on it.'

Just to confirm what your eyes saw, it would have looked like one of these. The accuracy/consistency of the DiaMension is best. The others, as Strm indicated, are entry level models.

ETA: Also wanted to confirm that the discrepancy is in table% not crown%

 

[spon]

Thanks for all the responses guys! To be a little more specific and answer a couple of questions:

The version that he had was the Brilliant Eye.

I''m in Los Angeles and one of the reasons that I went to this dealer was because they had a Sarin machine on premise and so I''m pretty sure that it was a real machine. This dealer also has had a couple of positive reviews in these forums so I feel pretty good about them in general (Liberty Diamonds).

Prior to running the Sarin report on that stone, he had run it on 4 or 5 other stones for me which were all AGS certified O grade Ideal cuts. As far as I could tell, all of the numbers showing on the Sarin report matched the numbers on the AGS certificate. The only stone that there was a discrepancy on was this EGL stone.

Also, I did enter all of the angles from the Sarin report into the PS Cut Advisor and it came up with a score of 1.5. However when I used the percentage listed on the EGL certificate it came up as a 2.something (can''t recall and I''m at work).

To confirm, yes, the discrepancy was in the Table %.

A couple of questions for the experts. Which of the Ideal porportions is generally considered to be most accurate? AGS, Sarin or EGL? In this situation, which report should I believe- the Sarin or the EGL?

The real issue and basis for these questions is that I simply want to make sure that I''m getting a good deal on the stone. I''m certainly no diamond expert and everything I''ve learned has come from this website and forum. I know that the important thing is that the stone is pleasing to my eye, and it is. But so where most of the other stones that I saw. There comes a point there visually there isn''t much difference and so I tend to want to rely upon the "numbers" to help me make my final decision.

Thanks!!!!

 

[belle]

Date: 10/4/2005 11:04:46 AM
Author: spon
Which of the Ideal porportions is generally considered to be most accurate? AGS, Sarin or EGL?

ags. actually, i would order them the way you have them listed.

In this situation, which report should I believe- the Sarin or the EGL?

in your case, if the machine is calibrated properly, i would believe the sarin over the egl grade.

 

[Regular Guy]

Spon,

I've called your jeweler, asked him about the dimensions of his sarin machine, and contrary to what you think, I actually believe it is a toaster with a firecracker and alarm clock.

Actually, after I responded to this post, I saw your previous ones, and figured you'd sought them out in part for their sarin. Also, I'm a sucker for objective observation, and based on your reporting above of some simple tests with even only a handful of options, and based on your liking that one, I'd be with you, motivated to think the measurement in hand may be more accurate, and consider it worth a double check with an appraiser who could double check. I do think I'd want to do that before giving away my rights to return it.

Re Belle's comments, I've not seen it reported here the standards that either sarin (through one of their devices?...besides measuring angles, I know that it's poorer cousin OGI at leased use to categorize based only on AGS's scale, and since that now has changed, I don't know what it does) or EGL (any of them) use to calculate "ideal." But, AGS is talked a lot about here, and particularly it's newest standard is well regarded.

Regardless of what EGL does or doesn't do, and although there are reasonable concerns of what is in the mind of the diamond holder who submits the diamond to EGL vs. either AGS or GIA, the diamond is not made the worse for having EGL certification. Consistent with the lab survey included here that references these three agencies (note they specify EGL USA vs EGL, and based on what I read here, without knowing it to be otherwise, I might guess that non USA EGL would be graded better by 2 grades what either AGS or GIA would do for color and clarity), it is possible indeed to get a good price and value on an EGL certed diamond, and you may have one of those that are just that.

Regards,

 

[belle]

i'm sorry if there was any confusion regarding my previous post, i will clarify... i was talking about the accuracy of measurements, not 'ideal' grades assigned by lab or machinery. only the accuracy of measurements.

 

[spon]

Ira, I was wondering why the front of the Sarin machine kept blinking "12:00" over and over. hahahaha. seriously, thanks for all the feedback guys. I think I''m going to go with this particular stone. Once I buy it I have 10 days to return it, so I''ll definitly have it appraised. I spoke to the dealer about having EGL take another look at it to issue a new certification. He said he''d be more than happy to do that and in fact if I decide not to take that stone, after he saw the numbers on the Sarin report, he''s going to send it to AGS to have them certify for it. He said after he does that he''ll probably be able to mark up 20% or so. I''m sure this is partially a sales tactic, but he does seem to be a pretty straight forward guy.

I''m going to post the specs on the stone in the forum to get some feedback before I take the final plunge if any of you want to give feedback on it.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/feedback-on-this-stone-about-to-take-the-plunge.34311/

Thanks again!!!

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 10/4/2005 2:49:15 PM
Author: spon
I'm going to post the specs on the stone in the forum to get some feedback before I take the final plunge if any of you want to give feedback on it.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/feedback-on-this-stone-about-to-take-the-plunge.34311/

Thanks again!!!

Since you've asked for feedback, I'd just encourage you to assess your available resources, and, if you like, compare apples to apples.

For example, re resources, if confirming the measurements is important to you, I'm not sure who you'd like assistance for that. Based on having reviewed appraiser resources as posted on this site for southern CA, Patrick Davis is one resource mentioned who says he provides measurements but doesn't indicate how; I've actually just written him cause I'm a busy body, and am waiting to hear.

Re apples, for example, this I SI1 is available for $1200 less, should be cut well, and may rate as good or better for color and clarity. Then again, their store front is not next door. (And, let's not forget...if it really is a G VS2, compared to this one, you will have saved $2000!).

Regards,