Effigy of Palin Hanging by Noose Is Distasteful, but Not a Hate Crime, Feds Say

[starsapphire]

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/29/sarah-palin-effigy-hanging-noose-hate-crime/

If this were an effigy of Obama, these people would have been arrested by now, and their house would have been stormed by angry mobs!!!!

 

[purrfectpear]

Not in WeHo.

Yes it''s ugly and wrong. No, it''s not a hate crime, it''s a Halloween parody in extremely poor taste.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:01:25 PM
Author:starsapphire
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/29/sarah-palin-effigy-hanging-noose-hate-crime/

If this were an effigy of Obama, these people would have been arrested by now, and their house would have been stormed by angry mobs!!!!

Um, Star? It''s been done.

And I didn''t hear of anyone getting arrested or having their house stormed by angry mobs.

 

[MaggieB]

I''m definitely not going to get embroiled in trying to explain what makes one a hate crime and the other not. Read some history.

I will however share that my grandfather, who was an Army Colonel during World War II, was also the president of an extremely tiny college during the Vietnam War. The students disagreed with his pro-war stance and hung him in effigy. It wasn''t a hate crime. It was a protest. (Not that our family was happy about it. But I still thank GOD that I live in a country where it could be done.)

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:25:36 PM
Author: MaggieB
I''m definitely not going to get embroiled in trying to explain what makes one a hate crime and the other not. Read some history.

I will however share that my grandfather, who was an Army Colonel during World War II, was also the president of an extremely tiny college during the Vietnam War. The students disagreed with his pro-war stance and hung him in effigy. It wasn''t a hate crime. It was a protest. (Not that our family was happy about it. But I still thank GOD that I live in a country where it could be done.)

I do read.

I know she is not black, and that if she were, it would be a hate crime. But really, isn''t something like this really a "crime" motivated by hate? I mean, it may not be illegal, but, if they did that and Palin were gay, then it would be a hate crime. I think it is terrible.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:31:04 PM
Author: starsapphire

I do read.

I know she is not black, and that if she were, it would be a hate crime. But really, isn''t something like this really a ''crime'' motivated by hate? I mean, it may not be illegal, but, if they did that and Palin were gay, then it would be a hate crime. I think it is terrible.

I agree 100% . . . it is terrible, and in extremely poor taste, even though it isn''t technically a "hate crime." I have no idea what these people were thinking.

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:12:49 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 10/29/2008 1:01:25 PM
Author:starsapphire
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/29/sarah-palin-effigy-hanging-noose-hate-crime/

If this were an effigy of Obama, these people would have been arrested by now, and their house would have been stormed by angry mobs!!!!

Um, Star? It''s been done.

And I didn''t hear of anyone getting arrested or having their house stormed by angry mobs.

Well, that was a campus. This thing in Hollywood is a person''s house. People can''t just go onto their property just because they disagree with the display and take it down.

 

[MaggieB]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:31:04 PM
Author: starsapphire

Date: 10/29/2008 1:25:36 PM
Author: MaggieB
I''m definitely not going to get embroiled in trying to explain what makes one a hate crime and the other not. Read some history.

I will however share that my grandfather, who was an Army Colonel during World War II, was also the president of an extremely tiny college during the Vietnam War. The students disagreed with his pro-war stance and hung him in effigy. It wasn''t a hate crime. It was a protest. (Not that our family was happy about it. But I still thank GOD that I live in a country where it could be done.)

I do read.

I know she is not black, and that if she were, it would be a hate crime. But really, isn''t something like this really a ''crime'' motivated by hate? I mean, it may not be illegal, but, if they did that and Palin were gay, then it would be a hate crime. I think it is terrible.

You know what, I apologize for the "Read some history" comment. I actually didn''t mean it to be flip, but I totally see reading it that is was, and that was wrong of me.

What I meant is that the answer is hundreds of years of history that is too long to convey in a post. Not that you wouldn''t understand it, or even already know it, but that I''m not planning to write it.

In a nutshell, the hanging of someone in effigy is a symbol. What it is a symbol of is what determines whether or not it is a hate crime. And here is where I defer back to my original post.

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:38:53 PM
Author: MaggieB

Date: 10/29/2008 1:31:04 PM
Author: starsapphire

Date: 10/29/2008 1:25:36 PM
Author: MaggieB
I''m definitely not going to get embroiled in trying to explain what makes one a hate crime and the other not. Read some history.

I will however share that my grandfather, who was an Army Colonel during World War II, was also the president of an extremely tiny college during the Vietnam War. The students disagreed with his pro-war stance and hung him in effigy. It wasn''t a hate crime. It was a protest. (Not that our family was happy about it. But I still thank GOD that I live in a country where it could be done.)

I do read.

I know she is not black, and that if she were, it would be a hate crime. But really, isn''t something like this really a ''crime'' motivated by hate? I mean, it may not be illegal, but, if they did that and Palin were gay, then it would be a hate crime. I think it is terrible.

You know what, I apologize for the ''Read some history'' comment. I actually didn''t mean it to be flip, but I totally see reading it that is was, and that was wrong of me.

What I meant is that the answer is hundreds of years of history that is too long to convey in a post. Not that you wouldn''t understand it, or even already know it, but that I''m not planning to write it.

In a nutshell, the hanging of someone in effigy is a symbol. What it is a symbol of is what determines whether or not it is a hate crime. And here is where I defer back to my original post.

Tis ok.

 

[VRBeauty]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:35:05 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
I agree 100% . . . it is terrible, and in extremely poor taste, even though it isn't technically a 'hate crime.' I have no idea what these people were thinking.

Ditto. Any hanging in effigy is a terrible thing... it's a very powerful image whether it's used as a taunt or to intimidate, or as a way to incite violence. I'm not trying in any way to excuse anyone, but I have to believe that only people who are young and unversed, who aren't aware of how this type of image has been used both in the U.S and in other countries, would use this image just tomake a political point.

 

[VRBeauty]

Sarah Palin effigy has been taken down.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-palineffigy30-2008oct30,0,3167657.story

 

[LaraOnline]

Call me naive, but unless the people who hung an effigy of a person were actually defining their act according to racist/ homophobic /sexist politics, surely it can't really be defined as a 'hate crime'.

Even if the effigy is of a black politician.

I mean, the guy in question is running for US President! And he seems to have a comfortable lead!
If his colour is constantly the first port of politics, how can there be in depth debate about politicies, going forward.
And can we bring up the power of Condoleeza Rice?
This is not a country that appears to have a major, overwhelming problem with powerful black people.
Hey I've never even been to the US. But from this distance, it kinda seems as though the old theories about racist whiteys (as a homogenous, somewhat ruthlessly dominating group) are slowly, gradually getting a bit out of date...?

I guess it'll take a looooong time for the historical references to fade away to meaningless ness.

I mean, if an effigy of Palin was hung in a tree as an action to essentially protest/intimidate 'uppity women upsetting God's natural order' ... wouldn't that be a hate crime?

Or is intimidating women okay? I guess a lot of our theories and interpretations of these kinds of things comes down to our cultural practices... I wouldn't mind betting that in some middle eastern countries, an effigy of a woman political leader could smack very much of 'hate crime'....

I guess that it all comes down to the motivations of the individual perpetrators...

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:25:36 PM
Author: MaggieB
I''m definitely not going to get embroiled in trying to explain what makes one a hate crime and the other not. Read some history.

I will however share that my grandfather, who was an Army Colonel during World War II, was also the president of an extremely tiny college during the Vietnam War. The students disagreed with his pro-war stance and hung him in effigy. It wasn''t a hate crime. It was a protest. (Not that our family was happy about it. But I still thank GOD that I live in a country where it could be done.)

Heh, you don''t even have to read history. READ LAW.

this is so ridiculous.

i can not wait until this ish is over.

 

[VRBeauty]

Date: 10/30/2008 5:51:12 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Call me naive, but unless the people who hung an effigy of a person were actually defining their act according to racist/ homophobic /sexist politics, surely it can''t really be defined as a ''hate crime''.

I guess that it all comes down to the motivations of the individual perpetrators...

That''s not naive... legally, I believe it''s correct. Not all crimes committed against people in a "protected class" are hate crimes, it''s only those in which they''re targeted because they are part of that protected class. So.... although hanging a likeness of Obama may be a hateful act, it is not necessariy a hate crime. Of course this is where the history of lynchings -- a crime that was most likely to be carried out against Black people because of their color -- comes in. Because of that background, there is more of a likelyhood that this particular image, when used against Obama, is likely to be about race rather than (for example) economic policy.

 

[MaggieB]

Date: 10/30/2008 3:26:17 PM
Author: VRBeauty

Date: 10/30/2008 5:51:12 AM
Author: LaraOnline
Call me naive, but unless the people who hung an effigy of a person were actually defining their act according to racist/ homophobic /sexist politics, surely it can''t really be defined as a ''hate crime''.

I guess that it all comes down to the motivations of the individual perpetrators...

That''s not naive... legally, I believe it''s correct. Not all crimes committed against people in a ''protected class'' are hate crimes, it''s only those in which they''re targeted because they are part of that protected class. So.... although hanging a likeness of Obama may be a hateful act, it is not necessariy a hate crime. Of course this is where the history of lynchings -- a crime that was most likely to be carried out against Black people because of their color -- comes in. Because of that background, there is more of a likelyhood that this particular image, when used against Obama, is likely to be about race rather than (for example) economic policy.

Great explanation! Much better than I would have done.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:05:25 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Not in WeHo.

Yes it''s ugly and wrong. No, it''s not a hate crime, it''s a Halloween parody in extremely poor taste.

Mmmmmmmm, no. It''s parading as a Halloween prank. It gets a pass because the idiots responsible are saying its a Halloween prank. But let''s be honest, shall we? No one would be laughing at this, or giving it the ''so what'' treatment if it was Obama strung up for the world to see.

 

[VRBeauty]

Date: 10/30/2008 6:28:13 PM
Author: HollyS

Mmmmmmmm, no. It''s parading as a Halloween prank. It gets a pass because the idiots responsible are saying its a Halloween prank. But let''s be honest, shall we? No one would be laughing at this, or giving it the ''so what'' treatment if it was Obama strung up for the world to see.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm, no. It did not get a pass. It did not get a "so what" treatment. It was taken down.