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I did start this thread. I may be bigoted, but I like to think I''m not.

I like to think I''m more like an attorney defending someone, not wanting to know more than I have to know to do my job.

a) there are lots of ways to volunteer your time.

b) I''ll express my preference, again, to limit this to military, and men as comrades, only.

c) I also respect people can say what they want. If it''s necessary to discuss scouting again, I won''t respond to this until evening. I''ll try to be as reflective, meanwhile, as I can be.

My intended topic is military, only.

Thanks,
 
Watch out.
Bigotry and hatred disguise themselves as morality.

Humans have a tendency to clump into groups.
My group good, your group bad.
The worse my group can make your group look, the better my group gets to be.
It is a primitive thing.
It's in our DNA and we must fight it.

Babies are born gay.
I was.
From earliest childhood I was different.
I have heard this a million times from gays and lesbians.

People don't turn gay or choose it.
They just choose to stop lying to themselves and others.
Considering the hatred we face it takes a brave and strong person hold their head up and be true.
This is just the kind of person we need fighting on the front lines.
 
Date: 11/4/2009 3:12:11 AM
Author: HopeDream
I just recently read this article about the Canadian experience in dealing with this same issue.

(We''ve had openly gay folks in the military for 17 years).

I''m proud of our troops, and of anyone willing to put their life on the line for their country.
Click to expand...
It''s a funny coincidence that you would post this article... Commander Cassivi is my brother''s CO!

As for the subject at hand... My father has worked his entire engineering carrier for a company contracted by the Navy. My brother is in the Navy. My sister is in bootcamp to join the Army. As far as I know, people who serve do it for the career, for the country, because it makes them proud. If anyone''s motive to join was sex, I''m pretty sure they would be weeded out pretty quickly (as in they would quit). The training is hard and the life is harder, so your motivation has to be something so much more than finding potential sex partners.

Anyone who has the desire to join should be able to freely and without discrimination, whether it is because of their skin colour or their sexual orientation.
 
Date: 11/3/2009 5:24:17 PM
Author: kenny
I support equality.
DADT is about inequality.

It''s as simple as that.

I''m always on the lookout for hatred that is disguised as morality.
Click to expand...
Another ditto.
 
Kenny, friends (I hope), all,

off topic & on topic

Bad intro, but what can I do...


new story...

I''m part of a religious community, where I serve as the co-chair for Religious Education.
Also, we are a new community, have been borrowing a torah, and now need to give it back
we need a new one.
My director of religious education and I have been sparring.
In fact, she has right out said she will not speak with me, one on one.
It is an embarrasement to be the co-chair of religious ed, while she has this attitude.
Should I quit?
I''ve threatened to
Should I invite her for Shabbat Dinner?
Importantly, for this new community, should I be willing to consider a significant donation to this community to invest in a new torah, when I cannot get along in a basic way with our Director of Education
It is not up to whoever g-d is to settle disputes between people, it is up to us.

I understand that, and appreciate, I hope, what you have said, Kenny.

It is not out of interest to avoid a difficult topic, that I have raised it.

I can be attacked. The hope is that for whatever merit the ideas may have...such that they derive concern...that they can be addressed on their own.
 
There have been actual experiments with fruit flys showing that you can genetically determine homosexuality. Which is pretty strong evidence for the "it''s not a choice" stance.

Even so, those who find it "morally sinful", will still argue that even though you''re born that way, you can "choose" not to act on it.
7.gif
That God has just given you a different burden and challenge to face, and you must overcome your "sinful nature" to prove yourself, etc. They will still think of it as a "disease" like kleptomania, that you should seek treatment for and try to correct. I can''t tell you how many times I''ve heard this from people, even teachers (I grew up in a very conservative area). In large part, I think it is what soured me to all organized religion from a very young age (I knew I was different from birth too).

I do have a lot of hope though, since usually when the media supports a view, it normalizes it for the generation that grows up with it. And with more and more public figures being openly gay, I think the message to each successive generation will just get louder and clearer.
 
Date: 11/5/2009 12:24:19 PM
Author: kenny
Watch out.
Bigotry and hatred disguise themselves as morality.

Humans have a tendency to clump into groups.
My group good, your group bad.
The worse my group can make your group look, the better my group gets to be.
It is a primitive thing.
It''s in our DNA and we must fight it.

Babies are born gay.
I was.
From earliest childhood I was different.
I have heard this a million times from gays and lesbians.

People don''t turn gay or choose it.
They just choose to stop lying to themselves and others.
Considering the hatred we face it takes a brave and strong person hold their head up and be true.
This is just the kind of person we need fighting on the front lines.
Click to expand...
Every post I write comes out with me talking in circles, so I''m just going to ditto Kenny.
 
I have no problem with equality. Everyone regardless of skin color, religion, sexual orientation, I.Q., or whatever should be held to the same standards and treated equally. Period. No excluding based on anything genetic or by choice.

Special treatment is where I get concerned. There should not be a different standard for different groups of people. We are all people. If the job or the schooling or the whatever requires certain skills, then EVERYONE should be held to the same standard. If the job requires lifting 100 pounds, then EVERY last person hired should be able to lift 100 pounds.

If the military rules of conduct say that you can''t have relations with another person on the ship, then I don''t care if it is man/woman/other. Rules are rules and should apply to everyone EQUALLY.

If the community standards are that people don''t sit in a restaurant and grope each other, I don''t care if it is men/women/homosexual/heterosexual -- people shouldn''t grope in public (if that is the community standard).


If two men or two women qualify for insurance coverage, getting info from a hospital if one gets sick/injured, whatever then the same thing should apply to a man & a woman who are just as committed to each other but for whatever reason are unable/uninterested/whatever in getting married.


No one should be discriminated against. No one should be given special treatment. We are all people.
 
If you just want to talk about the military you shouldn''t have thrown out the Boy Scouts reference. Pretty silly to do that and then say it''s off limits.
 
Date: 11/5/2009 12:37:42 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Kenny, friends (I hope), all,
off topic & on topic
Bad intro, but what can I do...

new story...
I'm part of a religious community, where I serve as the co-chair for Religious Education.

Also, we are a new community, have been borrowing a torah, and now need to give it back
we need a new one.
My director of religious education and I have been sparring.
In fact, she has right out said she will not speak with me, one on one.
It is an embarrasement to be the co-chair of religious ed, while she has this attitude.

Should I quit?
I've threatened to

Should I invite her for Shabbat Dinner?
Importantly, for this new community, should I be willing to consider a significant donation to this community to invest in a new torah, when I cannot get along in a basic way with our Director of Education
It is not up to whoever g-d is to settle disputes between people, it is up to us.

I understand that, and appreciate, I hope, what you have said, Kenny.
It is not out of interest to avoid a difficult topic, that I have raised it.
I can be attacked. The hope is that for whatever merit the ideas may have...such that they derive concern...that they can be addressed on their own.
Click to expand...

Ira, why won't she talk to you?
 
Date: 11/5/2009 1:40:58 PM
Author: kenny

Ira, why won't she talk to you?
Click to expand...
I can tell you how it started...several months ago.

Our ed committee met, and we planned for teen programming. It was suggested we charge $200 a head to participate in programming for the year, and that we hire a particular guy to teach some of it.

She doesn't like this particular guy, and the reasons people like him.

Our rabbi did like him.

I understood, having been at that meeting, and as co-chair, I had certain responsibilities in that capacity, as co-chair.

Our rabbi invited this guy to a meeting to discuss this further, and he didn't include her in some e-mails...a complication...but he was I think also a) trying to specifically include only people that had to know what they had to know, and b) he knew she didn't like him.

As it came closer, and she said we didn't have it in our budget to hire him, I said she didn't have that authority.

It started there...the problems.

In the recent several days, our "Board of Directors" either fixed the problem, or exacerbated it.

The set out rules of conduct, essentially saying the Director of education had all decision making authority, and the ed committee could only consult to her. It gave she, the clergy, and the board all power.

It takes tension off of our relationship, because now it's clearer we have no power.

Then again, I don't think that was a very enlightened approach to encouraging consultative communications.
 
Based on what you wrote I do not see why you should quit.
 
Regular Guy,
I am very familiar with petty Temple politics...in any religious community there are those who are more interested in serving their own agendas than simply serving.

What I fail to grasp is your connecting this woman''s role as a religious educator and homosexuals serving in the military.
 
Date: 11/5/2009 6:58:59 PM
Author: swimmer
Regular Guy,
I am very familiar with petty Temple politics...in any religious community there are those who are more interested in serving their own agendas than simply serving.

What I fail to grasp is your connecting this woman''s role as a religious educator and homosexuals serving in the military.
Click to expand...
It''s been a long day...and I appreciated the break. I did ask for problems with this thread. I am more curious than invested, and in retrospect, probably should not have started it.

I had to go back and read for the sense, to answer your question.

I think the point is that...if we are to feel invested in our communities...whatever community they may be...religious, military, we would maybe like to understand the more total sense of how it makes sense, has a logical basis, and can come together, as institutions that man have created.

Probably, a more over-riding query I personally have is...why would anyone join the military, altogether. But, since we have a military, I''m sure it is good if it is run well. And at least, since we have a military, I don''t begrudge those that choose to join, overall.

Re-reading...I''ll restate the above. Given the society we do have...it is probably appropriate to have a military. I am glad I don''t have to join, and that my children don''t have to...though this too causes problems, as even my wife says. Certainly, I wish it were other, such that it didn''t make sense to have a military. But, maybe that is foolhardy to think.

In raising this topic, and reading through the responses, the question of motivation for joining the military did arise for me, and in my second post in this thread, I stated it this way:

"I would not suggest there are not strategic and utilitarian reasons both to join the military, having nothing to do with ones sexuality. Nevertheless, it would not be reasonable to suggest that anyone conscious of their sexual identity wouldn''t contemplate the implications of becoming a part of a ghetto experience, with respect to members of one''s own sex. Should this be of no concern?"

I did have this thought, and do have this question. If the question is reasonalble, I ask others to help me answer it. If the question is not reasonable, you could tell me so, and tell me why.

Overall, though, as the day has progressed, I am more clear that there are many ways a society comes together. At least right now, I think I have no very good wisdom about how public policy should work on these things at all. I DO think it is responsible for leaders in society to ask big questions. But...I will not pretend to have the answers.

Regards,
 
Regular Guy,
You wrote this: "Probably, a more over-riding query I personally have is...why would anyone join the military, altogether. But, since we have a military, I''m sure it is good if it is run well. And at least, since we have a military, I don''t begrudge those that choose to join, overall.

Re-reading...I''ll restate the above. Given the society we do have...it is probably appropriate to have a military. I am glad I don''t have to join, and that my children don''t have to...though this too causes problems, as even my wife says."

My apologies, this is not my first language, but the above is just a jumble of words to me.

I am acutely aware that very for better or worse militaries are necessary. Even if simply to help the populace in times of natural disaster, a readily available group of trained professionals will always be necessary both to many who serve and those who are served. My husband and I live in the US in large part so that he no longer has to be a reservist in the IDF and more so because we do not want our children to have to serve in the manner we did. The idea that anyone would serve in order to gratify some sexual urge is just violently off base, well I really hope that I am misinterpreting your question. For academic purposes, let''s flip your question; what exactly motivates YOU to serve your congregation? Especially in the capacity of working with children. Since your thoughts turned so quickly to sexual impropriety it does seem a tad Freudian... Doesn''t that line of inquiry feel revolting? I believe that is what many of us are reading in your tangent. But then again, I am pretty much lost in the above quote from you and that pedophilia tangent.
 
Date: 11/5/2009 7:50:43 PM
Author: swimmer
For academic purposes, let''s flip your question; what exactly motivates YOU to serve your congregation? Especially in the capacity of working with children.
Click to expand...
Usually, when I tell people I identify more as a buddhist than a Jew, I worry that they just get the wrong idea. In this case, I am close to more or less thinking it would just be good if I could make this thread go away, and anyone being distracted from the topic of the thread might be better off.

To your question I repeated above...I really think that that the service created in the Jewish tradition can have a great deal of meaning, if practiced properly. Primarily, my embedded intention is to understand and experience the deeper intention of the service for myself, and have some place in communicating that first to my own children, in some kind of way, and also to the youth in our community. I do have my own boys, ages 10 and 14 in our community, and that is related to my primary association.

As to the rest...it may be just too hard to rescue this thread. I''m happy to monitor it, and if necessary, invite (or again, if necessary, beg) the moderators to delete it.

If there are constructive questions embedded, I''m glad. If not, well...maybe enough has been said. Certainly, two very good articles have come forward.

With regards,
 
I thought "public service" films like this were out of date.
Perhaps not.
 
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