Does the colour grading scheme differ depending on where you shop?

[gwendolyn]

I''ve been reading a bunch of threads here (I''ve been lurking a while) that say, for example, an E/VVS1 is an E/VVS1 regardless of where you get the stone, how old it is, etc., which is what I had assumed was true until I was told otherwise when shopping recently.

A few months ago I went out comparison shopping for diamonds, to try some on (I''m still deciding between round and princess), and after looking at a number of stones, I found a lovely princess that was a G and appeared to have almost no hint of colour. Shortly after, I went to Tiffany to see the rings in person, looked at a G there and it seemed to be (comparatively) saturated with colour; it looked quite dingy. I asked the man behind the counter about the difference in a G at Tiffany and a G at this other store, if they were rated on the same colour scale, and he told me that the colour grades were arbitrary, and that they could vary wildly depending on the person writing up the report.

This seemed highly strange to me, but since he worked at the store and I didn''t, I figured he must know something I don''t. But is this true? Does the amount of colour in a stone vary depending on the individual who certifies it? Or did he possibly mean that different certification associations have different scales? The way he said it, it definitely sounded like each person could have a different definition of what "E" or "G" was. Clarification, please? And apologies if this is a dumb question.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 8/4/2007 5:26:09 PM
Author:gwendolyn
I've been reading a bunch of threads here (I've been lurking a while) that say, for example, an E/VVS1 is an E/VVS1 regardless of where you get the stone, how old it is, etc., which is what I had assumed was true until I was told otherwise when shopping recently.


A few months ago I went out comparison shopping for diamonds, to try some on (I'm still deciding between round and princess), and after looking at a number of stones, I found a lovely princess that was a G and appeared to have almost no hint of colour. Shortly after, I went to Tiffany to see the rings in person, looked at a G there and it seemed to be (comparatively) saturated with colour; it looked quite dingy. I asked the man behind the counter about the difference in a G at Tiffany and a G at this other store, if they were rated on the same colour scale, and he told me that the colour grades were arbitrary, and that they could vary wildly depending on the person writing up the report.


This seemed highly strange to me, but since he worked at the store and I didn't, I figured he must know something I don't. But is this true? Does the amount of colour in a stone vary depending on the individual who certifies it? Or did he possibly mean that different certification associations have different scales? The way he said it, it definitely sounded like each person could have a different definition of what 'E' or 'G' was. Clarification, please? And apologies if this is a dumb question.

The thing is, that everything is graded by a human's eye. Some are looser in their definitions of what a "G" may be for example, and not all certification agencies are the same either. A GIA "G" may very likely look different than an EGL "G". So he is technically right on both accounts that it CAN vary from person to person and from grading agency to grading agency.

But within an agency there should be a much smaller amount of variation theoretically because everyone doing the grading has been trained together and is using the same/similar set of master stones. But some agencies (like EGL or IGI) are much wider in their "G" range than say Tiffany or GIA. That's the reason for the premium for GIA or AGS graded stones, because theoretically they are much stricter.

If you go into the Ma and Pa store, and Pa tells you that an uncertified stone is a G VS2 though, his def. COULD greatly vary from a GIA G VS2 because it's Pa determining the grade.
Hope that makes sense...

 

[musey]

ditto neatfreak

she put it much more concisely than I would have been able to.

 

[Ellen]

And Tiffany grades their own stones, not a lab. Perhaps they are looser also?

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 8/4/2007 5:41:34 PM
Author: neatfreak
The thing is, that everything is graded by a human''s eye. Some are looser in their definitions of what a ''G'' may be for example, and not all certification agencies are the same either. A GIA ''G'' may very likely look different than an EGL ''G''. So he is technically right on both accounts that it CAN vary from person to person and from grading agency to grading agency.


But within an agency there should be a much smaller amount of variation theoretically because everyone doing the grading has been trained together and is using the same/similar set of master stones. But some agencies (like EGL or IGI) are much wider in their ''G'' range than say Tiffany or GIA. That''s the reason for the premium for GIA or AGS graded stones, because theoretically they are much stricter.


If you go into the Ma and Pa store, and Pa tells you that an uncertified stone is a G VS2 though, his def. COULD greatly vary from a GIA G VS2 because it''s Pa determining the grade.

Hope that makes sense...

Aye, it makes sense, but that makes the idea of buying online seem more daunting than it did before.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/4/2007 5:48:19 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Aye, it makes sense, but that makes the idea of buying online seem more daunting than it did before.

Thanks for the explanation.

Not really, if you stick to AGS (esp. for Princess, as they grade on light performance) and GIA.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 8/4/2007 5:51:37 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 8/4/2007 5:48:19 PM

Not really, if you stick to AGS (esp. for Princess, as they grade on light performance) and GIA.

Well, those are both US associations, and in less than a month and a half, I'm moving to England for grad school, and as my boyfriend is English, we'll most likely be settling there. I was hoping for an universal grading scheme so that the research I do here could transfer over there (like, I dunno, wanting an F/VS1 or something), but since it's more subjective than that, that doesn't seem like it'd be too useful for me to do in advance...

....unless I can get American certified stones worldwide? I dunno. That'd be sweet.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 8/4/2007 5:51:37 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 8/4/2007 5:48:19 PM

Author: gwendolyn


Aye, it makes sense, but that makes the idea of buying online seem more daunting than it did before.



Thanks for the explanation.

Not really, if you stick to AGS (esp. for Princess, as they grade on light performance) and GIA.

DITTO DITTO. AGS and GIA are not only the strictest labs, but they also are pretty consistent in the scheme of things. If you stick to one of them you will be FINE buying online. We''ve all done it!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 8/4/2007 6:00:00 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 8/4/2007 5:51:37 PM

Author: Ellen

Date: 8/4/2007 5:48:19 PM

Not really, if you stick to AGS (esp. for Princess, as they grade on light performance) and GIA.

Well, those are both US associations, and in less than a month and a half, I''m moving to England for grad school, and as my boyfriend is English, we''ll most likely be settling there. I was hoping for an universal grading scheme so that the research I do here could transfer over there (like, I dunno, wanting an F/VS1 or something), but since it''s more subjective than that, that doesn''t seem like it''d be too useful for me to do in advance...


....unless I can get American certified stones worldwide? I dunno. That''d be sweet.

Actually, most people in the UK that post on here end up ordering their stone from the US from Whiteflash or something! They are much much cheaper (even when you consider import tax) AND much higher quality than what you find in England.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/4/2007 6:03:39 PM
Author: neatfreak


Actually, most people in the UK that post on here end up ordering their stone from the US from Whiteflash or something! They are much much cheaper (even when you consider import tax) AND much higher quality than what you find in England.

Yup!

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 8/4/2007 6:03:39 PM
Author: neatfreak
Actually, most people in the UK that post on here end up ordering their stone from the US from Whiteflash or something! They are much much cheaper (even when you consider import tax) AND much higher quality than what you find in England.

Woohoo, now THAT is good news! So all this shopping around here hasn''t been for naught! And I''ve actually only recently discovered Whiteflash thanks to the folks here, and I really am quite taken with what I''ve seen so far (especially the W-prong setting for the princess cut stones), so that''s great. Thanks!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 8/4/2007 6:10:42 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 8/4/2007 6:03:39 PM

Author: neatfreak

Actually, most people in the UK that post on here end up ordering their stone from the US from Whiteflash or something! They are much much cheaper (even when you consider import tax) AND much higher quality than what you find in England.

Woohoo, now THAT is good news! So all this shopping around here hasn''t been for naught! And I''ve actually only recently discovered Whiteflash thanks to the folks here, and I really am quite taken with what I''ve seen so far (especially the W-prong setting for the princess cut stones), so that''s great. Thanks!

You can''t go wrong with them. And if Maisie sees this I am sure she will chime in. She''s in the UK and has recently dealt with WF twice!

 

[Hest88]

Date: 8/4/2007 6:00:00 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Well, those are both US associations, and in less than a month and a half, I''m moving to England for grad school, and as my boyfriend is English, we''ll most likely be settling there.

Another option is popping over to Belgium and seeing Paul Slegers, of Infinity Diamonds. He''s a lovely man dedicated to gorgeous diamonds. The most recent customer thread is here:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/another-excellent-experience-in-antwerp-with-paul-slegers-infinity-diamond.65972/

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 8/4/2007 6:26:04 PM
Author: Hest88
Another option is popping over to Belgium and seeing Paul Slegers, of Infinity Diamonds. He''s a lovely man dedicated to gorgeous diamonds. The most recent customer thread is here:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/another-excellent-experience-in-antwerp-with-paul-slegers-infinity-diamond.65972/

That looks good, and more than half of the dealers listed are American, so I''d be able to get a stone with ASG or GIA certification from there, I take it?

 

[ChargerGrrl]

gwendolyn: you''ve gotten some pretty good advice from the good folks here. i just wanted to chime in and say that my e-ring came from whiteflash. it''s a princess in their w-prong setting. i LOVE it!

since hubby purchased my ring 2 years ago, wf has introduced a line of ACA princess stones. these are top of the line, picked for their stellar performance. they''ve basically taken all the guesswork out of picking a princess! i had the opportunity to see a couple in person at wf this past week. they''re stunning!

you mentioned that you haven''t quite decided on a shape (princess vs. RB). you may want to check out wf''s x-factor, which is a princess with clipped corners. although it''s still technially a princess stone, it has a different look: http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds_about/xfactor.aspx

GOOD LUCK!

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 8/4/2007 9:47:30 PM
Author: ChargerGrrl
gwendolyn: you''ve gotten some pretty good advice from the good folks here. i just wanted to chime in and say that my e-ring came from whiteflash. it''s a princess in their w-prong setting. i LOVE it!

I''m so glad you love it! I don''t want anything real flashy, but I don''t want plain either, and I love the lines of the w-prong setting. It''s very elegant; it very well might be my ring too.

Author: ChargerGrrl
since hubby purchased my ring 2 years ago, wf has introduced a line of ACA princess stones. these are top of the line, picked for their stellar performance. they''ve basically taken all the guesswork out of picking a princess! i had the opportunity to see a couple in person at wf this past week. they''re stunning!

Excellent, that will make things even easier! I''ve been researching diamonds for years but I''m still a little nervous that I''ll make some silly mistake, so it''s good to hear about something that can make this near-foolproof for me.

Author: ChargerGrrl
you mentioned that you haven''t quite decided on a shape (princess vs. RB). you may want to check out wf''s x-factor, which is a princess with clipped corners. although it''s still technially a princess stone, it has a different look: http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds_about/xfactor.aspx


GOOD LUCK!

I actually was thinking about making a thread about the modified princess cuts vs. the standard princess cuts, but I was afraid of creating too many threads in one day (I only just joined up today!). Anyway, a couple friends of mine have the standard princess cut, and one of them said she wished her (now) husband had gotten one of the modified ones, since she''s afraid the corners of her stone will chip off. So I looked into the modified cuts, but some articles I read about them say that clipping the corners totally messes up the facets and that it doesn''t have the same sparkle as a normal princess. And the main thing I want in my stone is an excellent cut so I get a gorgeous level of brilliance.

So....I don''t know. Have you seen any of the modified princesses in person? Do you agree that they don''t have as much brilliance as a regular princess?

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Hey, I dont know about england but I have been shopping alot in Japan recently. I have not seen an AGS certificate yet but I have seen a number of counters that have GIA listed at the top of the counter and have certs laid out. Within the stores those are usually connected with or beside the Hearts and Cupid diamonds and the two of thsoe always carry the highest premiums within any particular store. so yes, GIA is def. world reknown, and in America AGS is now, from the jewelers and gemologist I have talked to, considered the more desirable lab. I imagine that AGS is also known of here in japan for a couple of reasons.

One is that you see in many of the stores where they emulate the GIA grade. They have GIA graded 3EX listed on a number of diamonds commanding huge premiums, and then in another shelf they have non-GIA cert stones that say 3EX that carry huge premiums as well, only not quite as much. They are bassically just copying Tif and GIA cert terminology. However, I have also been to a number of stores that sell what they call *ideal cut diamonds. those ideal cut diamonds carry by far the greatest premiums of anything I have seen so far, even mroe than the hearts and cupids. While the people at those stores didnt speak english and I couldnt find out who the certification agency was the fact that the largest premiums I have seen adopted the AGS terminology makes me think that they are in fact well aware of AGS here in Japan, just as they are of GIA. They are, I believe, world-wide well reknown laboratories.


But the real reason I wanted to respond is that you said that the diamond in Tiffanys looked more yellow. I have done alot of shopping the past couple of weeks, at Debeers, Cartiers, Tiffany and many many other very famous jewelery stores. I also have an E color diamond. I have compared my E color diamond to G-H-I colored diamonds in other stores and could see an immediate difference, but in Tif. I can not see any difference at all between my E and there I color. I asked to see one of there d color diamonds as well, and guess what, it was yellow! Why is this? very simply, the lighting and the paint in the stores. I have been to a coupel of tiffanys here in Japan and one in America and the lighting and paint causes for all of the diamonds to carry a slightly yellowish hue that is not truly present in the stone. I have also seen tif. diamonds in natural lighting and researched their grading standards. In fact, recent discussion by professionals here on PS commented that Tiffany is in fact somewhat more strict than GIA.

The diamonds do not actually have the yellow hue that they appear to have in the store. I imagine it is probably intentional to help them move their lower quality merch? but eitherway it has a drastic effect on being able to discern between the different colors. My E, that is totally colorless when walking around and checking it out outdoors, but becomes tainted and looks nasty in the Tif lighting. But, I will tell you what, it sparkles about 2@times more in the Tif store than it does just about anywhere else, except maybe Debeers.

(in the Tif. I have been too they always have kind of a creamy color roof and wall. and of course, the diamodn is reflecting that color, and the lighting is kind of dull and low but with alot of pinpoint light sources all over the building. this causes for the yellow saturation you were commenting on.)

(Debeers, by the way, is the best store I have been too. I didnt like their wedding bands, but wow, it was nice, they had two necklaces set up over 1million USD. and they gave me wine while I was shopping, incredible experience!)

Also, along the same lines, diamodns dont really face up white in Tif. say for instances you are walking down an unlit corridor from one well lit room to another well lit room. There my diamond is so white it takes my breath away. Walk in the tif store and there are just so many lights hitting it from all angles it flashes and sparkles but it doesnt really light up white liek a flashlight, as it does in other lighting environments. puts on a hell of a show, but white light.

 

[gwendolyn]

That''s an interesting point about the surroundings in Tiffany. The store I visited was the one in Chevy Chase, MD and I only remember the dark grey of the velvets in the display case and the dark wood around the inside of the store, but you''re right, the lights might have been yellowish and could''ve affected how the stones looked. I did look at a few different stones, although not as many as I would''ve liked (the salesman was quite rude, told my friend and I we should come back with "the men with the money" after I looked at a couple different rings *snorts*).

The weird thing is that I could see some difference in the stone colour; there seemed to be a pretty big step between the G and F, which was what prompted me to ask my question about G''s at different stores. Maybe it was in my head, or in the lights, I dunno. Probably a moot point since I don''t think we''ll have the dinero for a Tiffany ring anyway, but if it''s a possibility, I''ll give them another chance, especially since it seems like you''re quite happy with your Tif.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

oh no no, I dont have a Tif. I have just spent a few hours lookinhg at Tif.

I pretend I am going to buy from them, browse for a good 30-45 minutes and then leave. Its great here in Japan because I dont speak there language, and they are very willing to bring out rings with no questions asked. I have been to some stores and they ahve taken over 30 rings for me (nobody puts any of the rings I look at up until I leave, it seems to be the rule here) out at once and every store lets me try on as many as I want at once (though the most I have tried on is 4 at a time) some of them an Ascer cut that was 230,000 USD lol. Its really fun. When it comes to purchasing I would not pay the premiums associated with rings like that. Maybe a wedding band would be an option as the premiums arent too high, but my diamond was purchased from James Allen and is an AGS certified ideal cut HandA. It is very white and I am very demanding of my color. I sent back an H color AGS cert that I felt was too tainted for me. but when shopping around I noticed that my diamond was significantly more yellow and saturated in appearance when at tiffanys than anywhere else--except in my cream colored bathroom.

There are alot of reasons why you might have noticed the difference in that situation. One might be that the F was a very high end F and the G toward the lower end of the scale, that combined with some sortof of environmental influence--like say you held one in your right hand and it was pointed slightly over yoru shoulder and reflecting the cream colored cieling while the other one was pointed toward your shoulder/chest and reflecting a white/blue whatever color shirt, or from the side view you might have seen a reflection of the sales person or something else whiter through it and didnt realize it, or a final thought is that maybe the G color wasnt cut quite as well--not all tiffany cuts are equal, that is for sure (there again, i saw MUCh less deviation in cut quality at Debeers than Tif., the wedding bands at Debeers had much more consistent symmetry anyway)@and so if you looked at the from the face up the lesser cut woudl naturally face up more tainted then the ideal cut F, given different cuts and different colors it could certainly account for the difference.

At any rate, do a search on PS, there has been some discussion on it, and like I said, many of the professionals, some of them old GIA graders, have said that Tif is often even more stringent on color and clarity than big names like GIA.

 

[gk172]

I wonder if this will help you, we are from the uk and looked about for some 1ct princess cut diamond rings for my anniversary and what the uk stores were offering me was £3750 for an uncertified stone which they guessed was I SI1 or for a certified F VS2 £6500 which converted to dollars is about $12675 ish and on going to a well know wholesale available to public vendor admission only by card i was offered a g/h VS1 1 ct stone - £5000/£5200 so that maybe gives you an idea what the uk market is selling.

We opted for buying from abazias as they are based 2 hours from florida when we were on holiday and we made the purchase online from the uk and picked the ring up in gainesville whilst on holiday paying $6267/£3200 for a 1.07 carat D VS1

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 8/5/2007 12:20:16 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
oh no no, I dont have a Tif. I have just spent a few hours lookinhg at Tif.

I pretend I am going to buy from them, browse for a good 30-45 minutes and then leave. Its great here in Japan because I dont speak there language, and they are very willing to bring out rings with no questions asked. I have been to some stores and they ahve taken over 30 rings for me (nobody puts any of the rings I look at up until I leave, it seems to be the rule here) out at once and every store lets me try on as many as I want at once (though the most I have tried on is 4 at a time) some of them an Ascer cut that was 230,000 USD lol. Its really fun. When it comes to purchasing I would not pay the premiums associated with rings like that. Maybe a wedding band would be an option as the premiums arent too high, but my diamond was purchased from James Allen and is an AGS certified ideal cut HandA. It is very white and I am very demanding of my color. I sent back an H color AGS cert that I felt was too tainted for me. but when shopping around I noticed that my diamond was significantly more yellow and saturated in appearance when at tiffanys than anywhere else--except in my cream colored bathroom.

$230,000?!?! Exxxxxcellent... *sighs wistfully* I can only imagine!

The salesman basically said that Tiffany rings are all so pricey (in addition to being a name) is because all the cuts are good--even the lowest-grade cuts they offer are still very good. But since I think my eye is at least decent, I don''t need to rely on them to make sure I get a well cut stone, like I had thought when I first began my love affair with diamonds when I was about 16.

Author:WorkingHardforSmallRewards
There are alot of reasons why you might have noticed the difference in that situation. One might be that the F was a very high end F and the G toward the lower end of the scale, that combined with some sortof of environmental influence--like say you held one in your right hand and it was pointed slightly over yoru shoulder and reflecting the cream colored cieling while the other one was pointed toward your shoulder/chest and reflecting a white/blue whatever color shirt, or from the side view you might have seen a reflection of the sales person or something else whiter through it and didnt realize it, or a final thought is that maybe the G color wasnt cut quite as well--not all tiffany cuts are equal, that is for sure (there again, i saw MUCh less deviation in cut quality at Debeers than Tif., the wedding bands at Debeers had much more consistent symmetry anyway)?@and so if you looked at the from the face up the lesser cut woudl naturally face up more tainted then the ideal cut F, given different cuts and different colors it could certainly account for the difference.

*nods* You''re absolutely right, I wasn''t very meticulous when looking at them and definitely could''ve exposed them to those sorts of factors without realizing it. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that in detail.

Author:WorkingHardforSmallRewards
At any rate, do a search on PS, there has been some discussion on it, and like I said, many of the professionals, some of them old GIA graders, have said that Tif is often even more stringent on color and clarity than big names like GIA.

Excellent, I will do that. Thank you again for all your help!

Author:gk172
I wonder if this will help you, we are from the uk and looked about for some 1ct princess cut diamond rings for my anniversary and what the uk stores were offering me was £3750 for an uncertified stone which they guessed was I SI1 or for a certified F VS2 £6500 which converted to dollars is about $12675 ish and on going to a well know wholesale available to public vendor admission only by card i was offered a g/h VS1 1 ct stone - £5000/£5200 so that maybe gives you an idea what the uk market is selling.

*nods* Yeah, the prices over there are a bit scary. I found a princess setting that I really like at Boodles, but for a 0.78 stone and setting they want almost £5000, which is about twice as much as rings I''ve found here....

Author:gk172
We opted for buying from abazias as they are based 2 hours from florida when we were on holiday and we made the purchase online from the uk and picked the ring up in gainesville whilst on holiday paying $6267/£3200 for a 1.07 carat D VS1

*grins* That sounds like my kind of plan! Did you still have to pay import tax on it when you went through customs? I''m guessing you would, but I doubt it''d be nowhere near as bad as paying the regular price on diamonds in the UK.

 

[gk172]

They didnt ask me to