Does size matter?

[Islandia]

Hi everyone,

I have been lurking in this forum for a few weeks ever since figuring out that 1. I knew absolutely nothing about diamonds, and 2. needed to remedy the situation quickly. The advice and diamond selection tips I have found here have been invaluable as I have gone to various local brick and mortar retailers to look at their offerings, along with the usual peak at all the internet options. At any rate I have pretty much decided that I have found the perfect diamond for an engagement ring, but I am having some doubts and was hoping that I could solicit some opinions from yall.

As far as background, my girlfriend and I are both in our mid 20s and for quite some time, our longstanding joke has been that she wants a 5 carat diamond, and my response has been that I will propose when I can afford to get one. Strangely enough, she wears no jewelry whatsoever and is not materialistic at all, but I think she is quite fascinated by big diamonds, and I certainly would like to indulge her in this. At any rate, we could blissfully live with this arrangement, but circumstances are changing very soon. We currently live 3 hours apart, and as part of our future plans to be together we have decided to move together to Berkeley in the fall(where she will be attending graduate school and I will be running my small software business). As part of this move, I wanted to be able to pledge my eternal love, commitment, and all those other silly things that we humans generally associate with monogamy, before moving in together. The fact that I want her to have a big rock made of the hardest natural substance on earth to fend off those vultures that will be hovering around her on the Berkeley campus is just an incidental fringe benefit.

Because neither of us inherited vast amounts of wealth and are just starting our lives together, the prospects of getting a 5 carat diamond that is not horridly deformed, puke yellow, with little purple spots that were laser drilled in, are pretty low. That said, I am not totally without resources either, and have decided that I can reasonably spend $10k on a litttle pretty rock to indulge my darling, without compromising my business or our future retirement account, and still have enough left over for our moving expenses and getting established in California. After a month of searching and reading and agonizing, I decided that I wanted to get the following diamond which would fall into my budget and in my opinion would be a high quality rock that she would really like and enjoy.

Shape: Round
Cut: Ideal
Carat: 1.80
Color: F
Clarity: SI2

Measurements: 7.83-7.78-4.87
Depth Percentage: 62.4 %
Table Percentage: 55 %
Girdle: TN F
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None (Inert)
(I am getting the cert and sarin report on Monday at which time I can provide pavilion and crown percents)

That said, I keep thinking back to our longstanding joke and thinking that she wants the biggest possible diamond. I am torn between wanting to get that or another one not as well cut and lower color quality, but much bigger that would also fall within my budget such as:

Shape: Round
Cut: Premium
Carat: 2.46
Color: J
Clarity: SI2

Measurements: 8.68-8.6-5.33
Depth Percentage: 61.7 %
Table Percentage: 59 %
Girdle: -M-F-
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None (Inert)

Of course I had to keep all this secret from her so I can''t really ask her directly about it (and as a matter of fact, because she doesn''t wear any jewelry, I can''t even figure out her exact ring size). But I know that she would like the first one more, and I have half a mind to try to educate her on the merits of a well cut colorless and smaller pretty rock over a bigger less well cut (though still very nicely cut), more yellowish rock. Ultimately I want to surprise her as we are taking a trip to Yosemite valley the first week of June and I would love to pop the question in the shadow of the Half Dome there (We are both avid rock climbers and our lifelong goal is to make that ascent). As a result, I will have to ask some of you knowledgable experts on the forum instead and hope for the best.

Thanks for reading that huge soliloquy without falling asleep and if you have any advice for me I would certainly appreciate it.

Steve

 

[michela002]

Oh my! Haha. I truly think the five-carat thing was a joke, and she will be blown away to receive anything about one carat!! Go with your gut - go for the smaller but great cut, colour, etc. She will love it and I don''t think there will be ANY consideration of it being too small!!!!!!!!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Do you want a big diamond or a heavy diamond?
Size is not weight - there is not a strong link between the 2

and the info you have tells us little about the cut other than you could believe what is given to you - premium and such terms mean zippo

start with the tutorial

 

[Islandia]

Thanks for the quick feedback everyone. Just to clarify, I didn''t quite mean to imply I was going to buy blindly with just those statistics. I am looking at 3 different stones in the 1.7-1.8 F SI1- SI2 range at the moment (2 at a local B&M and 1 online) and plan on getting the crown and pavilion angles from the Sarin reports tomorrow (Monday). The two that I have actually seen look great as far as I can tell and seeing the inclusions is very difficult with the naked eye (though possible once I knew where to look).

Garry - how about a big and heavy diamond?

No one around here seems to have one of your idealscopes sadly. If I weren''t on a time crunch I would definitely consider ordering one, though I probably still will even after I purchase this e-ring. I am quite fascinated with all the things I have been learning about diamonds and want to find out more.

 

[michela002]

Date: 5/16/2005 1:58:13 AM
Author: Islandia
Garry - how about a big and heavy diamond?

I think Garry just means don''t just look at carat weight - you also need to look at the dimensions of the stones you are looking at in millimetres. Sometimes a stone can be of greater carat weight but not appear any bigger, so it''s "dead weight."

Date: 5/16/2005 1:58:13 AM
Author: Islandia
I am quite fascinated with all the things I have been learning about diamonds and want to find out more.

I''m sure your GF (future fiance) would be happy to let you "experiment" with your new diamond knowledge on her for many years to come!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Islandia

size means nothing,if the stone is not well made.i would take a beautiful cut 1.75ct over a poorly cut 2+ ct any day.

 

[Regular Guy]

Islandia,

I very much enjoyed your tale. Also, I can appreciate your interest, and potential ability to buy locally. I might question, though, what kind of juice your local option offers, since -- despite tight margins by the vendors on this board -- what you''ve found already, if near $10K, would otherwise be hard to match.

For example, as Ana mentions, H/I might be more what I''d see around here, if even going above 1.5 carats. If you''d consider an EGL F, which could be a G or H again (if it had a cert from GIA, for example), you could shoot for over 2 carats, that Jim at DCD would have to source for you, I suppose, and where he''d still have a couple of H SIs in his private stock, with a couple just above $10K SI 1s and this H SI 2 just below $9K.

Anyway, though a couple of us seem to be motivated to throw suggestions at you, looks like you''ve got a program in place. Good wishes going forward, of course!

 

[madrock]

You should take a look at a couple of threads regarding J diamonds -- some of them are BEAUTIFUL. While I don''t think you could get five carats, you certainly could go a little larger without sacrificing beauty.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

well you can in your time scale still get an Ideal Scope, either from Garrys site in Oz or from Oldminer in Philly (Gem Appraisers) That'll help give you some insight into the cut quality of what your looking at.

remember to factor in the cost of a ring too... which could add $1-2K depending on metal and style

oo just thought i would drop this into the equation. here its a 1.65 - but only 1/10th mm smaller than the 1.8 you are considering. and its a good cut.

 

[kdavis]

go to a store with her and look at some diamonds.. you might be surprised how big a 1ct+ is

my fiancee has a .75ct stone and it is almost too big for her, in my opinion.. and it blew her away as well. she is also a shorty, though

 

[MissAva]

I agree, I had teasmy SO about wanting a3.5 ct diamond since we were in HS, until one day we saw one. It looked fake on my hand and I looked pretty goofy. If you dont want her to go with you and look at rings then maybe now would be a time to enlist femal friend of hers.Get one of her chick frends to say they want to go and look at engagment rings. She may want a different shape diamond then the RBs you have been looing at. Also she may love one type of setting and loathe another. Lastly this would be a way for you to get her ring size. Good Luck! and post again soon with an update.

 

[Islandia]

Date: 5/16/2005 4:33:41 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Islandia,

I very much enjoyed your tale. Also, I can appreciate your interest, and potential ability to buy locally. I might question, though, what kind of juice your local option offers, since -- despite tight margins by the vendors on this board -- what you''ve found already, if near $10K, would otherwise be hard to match.

Anyway, though a couple of us seem to be motivated to throw suggestions at you, looks like you''ve got a program in place. Good wishes going forward, of course!

Regular Guy,

I am not sure if this phenomenan is specific to me or perhaps has afflicted other would be engagement ring buyers. The rings that I am looking at locally actually price in the $12-14k range, are 1.71 and 1.73 carats (F SI2) respectively and other than that they look sparkly and seem to fall into the generally accepted depth % and table % of ideal cut, I can''t speak for their actual quality, and most importantly would really be stretching my budget. This is of course why I asked for sarin measurements which they weren''t able to provide so I''m returning today. However, when I went into the store (and I will avoid naming names to spare the innocent or guilty as the case may be), and started looking, I started thinking well, 20-40% above my budget wouldn''t absolutely kill me and it IS for a lifetime, and my GF is the most precious thing to me in the whole world... you get the point.

If this is boring please stop me, but I have a pretty funny anecdote about my visit to this B&M vendor that I will again avoid naming. I look really young (possibly because I am really young) and like to dress casually when out shopping because I end up in suit and tie so much when meeting clients and working onsite for my computer business. So when I walked into the store the guy at the counter took one look at me and didn''t really say anything. I told him that I was looking for an engagement ring so he called in the back for another one of his sales associates to help me (surprisingly enough I was the only customer near lunchtime on a weekday). When she came out I told her I had done some research and was looking for a 1.5-1.75 carat ideal cut round brilliant diamond Color F-G Clarity VS1-S1. She seemed a bit taken aback and told me those were very specific requirements and did I have a budget in mind for "something like that." I should probably not have said anything at this point, but not wanting to waste time I told her I was willing to spend 10-15k. She brought out a few diamonds for me with price tags in the 15-18k range that had been hand written (with some higher prices below those typed that had been crossed out).

I started looking at the diamonds with my eyes first before using the loupe to see if I could find the inclusions, and as I was looking at them, the manager of the store walks out and even before I have said anything, tells me that they are willing to try to match internet prices quoting some Blue Nile prices for gems of this type. I showed her the two gems that I was interested in and again before I even start trying to negotiate ( and at this stage I was still not at the point where I had my heart set on either of the stones so it would have been half hearted negotiating at best), she pulls out a price sheet she had printed out of a gem listed on Blue Nile, and also the Rapapport price list. She then tells me that she isn''t suppose to be showing me this but these were the prices I would expect to pay for something like this, but she was willing to match internet prices and so she quoted me a price of 12-14k for those two stones respectively. At that point I told her that I had to think about such a large purchase and would return later.

At any rate, long story short, I would be spending quite a bit more than my original budget if I buy locally. Though who knows with the way that sales manager was slashing at her list price I could actually get a decent deal.

Steve

 

[Islandia]

Date: 5/16/2005 5:19:02 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
well you can in your time scale still get an Ideal Scope, either from Garrys site in Oz or from Oldminer in Philly (Gem Appraisers) That''ll help give you some insight into the cut quality of what your looking at.

Yes the handwriting was on the wall. I have to admit I am a bit addicted to diamond information now (perhaps due to my degree in electrical engineering). So I just called Gem Appraisers to order my Ideal Scope, loupe and tweezers.

Steve

 

[Islandia]

Date: 5/16/2005 8:17:24 AM
Author: kdavis
go to a store with her and look at some diamonds.. you might be surprised how big a 1ct+ is

my fiancee has a .75ct stone and it is almost too big for her, in my opinion.. and it blew her away as well. she is also a shorty, though

Again, let me preface this by saying that before my recent excursion into this absolutely fascinating world of diamond buying, I had no clue about diamonds. I knew they were shiny, people liked them, and other people who liked them more would pay ridiculous amounts of green paper to acquire them from the people who merely liked them.

Going into a store and looking at diamonds with her is not an option for me, because I want this proposal to be a total surprise. As I mentioned, I will be doing the deed when we visit Yosemite in June which means that I can not take her to the store, nor even give her hints that I have anything on my mind other than project deadlines and our much deserved vacation that I am looking forward to.

My girlfriend is 5''2" and has dainty hands (she plays the piano). I am pretty sure that a five carat diamond ring would practically rip her finger off. (And now I have an image of her holding up her hand like poor Frodo in Lord of the Rings).

Steve

 

[Islandia]

Date: 5/16/2005 8:51:59 AM
Author: Matatora
I agree, I had teasmy SO about wanting a3.5 ct diamond since we were in HS, until one day we saw one. It looked fake on my hand and I looked pretty goofy. If you dont want her to go with you and look at rings then maybe now would be a time to enlist femal friend of hers.Get one of her chick frends to say they want to go and look at engagment rings. She may want a different shape diamond then the RBs you have been looing at. Also she may love one type of setting and loathe another. Lastly this would be a way for you to get her ring size. Good Luck! and post again soon with an update.

Matatora,

Sadly all her friends that she hangs out with regularly are married so it would be a little obvious if they went to look at rings together. She is a very traditional girl in many ways so I think she would like a round diamond more than any of the other shapes, though I do admit that I was stunned when I saw cflutist''s pear shaped diamond. As far as setting goes, I am almost certain that she wants something simple so I was thinking something along these lines
http://www.uniondiamond.com/jewelry/jewelry_PHPQ_item_id_E_868_A_action_type_id_E_2&pic_name=&shape_id=

Thanks again to everyone for your feedback.

Steve

 

[headlight]

Well, I''m in the minority here, but I would want the larger stone. Quite honestly, size does seem to REALLY matter to her, and it does to me as well, and I would "sacrafice" a little on cut and color and clarity to get the largest rock on my hand without it looking like a piece of crap.
My 3.29 is premium, not ideal; it is SI2; it is H color (but probably really an I because of the lab that gave that grade). NO ONE knows the difference between it being something "better". No one is looking at its inclusions with a loupe. While it might not be "white-white", it doesn''t scream yellow or anything like that. And, it sparkles and displays colors and that is what people see when I''m wearing it! So, I''d rather have the larger one! It doesn''t have to be an "either-or" proposition between something of fine quality and something of crap -- there are things in the "middle" that no one would be the wiser about. It is really about whether or not it will bother her in her mind about its gradings, as she won''t "see" them when it is on her finger. Sometimes it bothers me, but I''ve had the smaller (1.01 carat and 1.51 carat) stones with the higher quality and wasn''t happy -- I was dead set on that 3 carat mark and once I finally got the rock (just turned out to be 3.29ct) I was finally pleased with the size. I know some guys on this forum say that their wife''s stone (whatever size) looks huge on them, but that is THEIR opinion -- I''d love to know what those ladies felt deep down inside about it! My DH thought my original 1.01 carat (GIA D color, btw) was plenty big, and that was his opinion and he was entitled to it. But, considering I was wearing the ring....
I am really happy with my current diamond size, and down the road I will upgrade the cut, clarity and color to make my "mental" side match my visual side.
I know that many on this thread have expressed that a one carat stone will be adored by your girl, but if she has blatantly expressed she wants a huge rock, I think you really need to give this serious consideration. My ring isn''t even as large as the 5 carat she wants (like who doesn''t?), but trust me -- the 9.59mm of my stone is a LOT larger than a one carat diamond. Truthfully, a 5 carat diamond on a 20-something would look ridiculous unless her name is Paris Hilton or the like. I got my 3.29 carat at age 38. My husband''s step-mom got a 5 carat diamond (GIA D color -- makes me hyperventilate!) at age 53, which seems to make more "sense". I think that a young woman, 20-something, in school, who receives a 2-and-a-half carat diamond ER is the equivalent of that 50-something getting her 5 carat.

 

[headlight]

To make my point, for a girl who wants a larger stone but the budget will require some "sacraficing", I honestly don''t think this looks like garbage, but maybe those who are more educated and experienced in diamond selection could enlighten me (I do have a full-value upgrade on my ring)!

 

[bluedawg]

I would want the 1.8 of lower color and finer quality.

I am probably much like your girl, in that I am very much a jeans and t-shirt type, little to no makeup, etc BUT I love a big diamond! Can't explain it, quite frankly...

But a 1.8 is a large-ish diamond. I just got one myself, 1.81 D/VS2 for a 10-year anniv upgrade...I have small fingers (size 3.5) and I had someone ask me today (kinda rude but she honestly didn't seem to feel the ? was rude LOL) if my diamond was a 2.5ct! I wish... and someday, I hope to have a 2.5-3 ct size. At my current age (37) I think a 3ct ring would be silly. This is obviously my own personal feeling. Hubby has joked that I might need a bigger diamond in my 40s, and I told him I would take him up on that!

I didn't like the warmer colors... and even though the same (actually less) money could have gotten me a 2.4ct J... I didn't like it when I tried it on!

It seems to me that your GF will be the type to go for an upgrade for future anniversaries and why not have something fun to look forward to?

GL!

 

[Hest88]

If you get a good cut you can probably go down to a J and still have a really nice stone that faces up fairly white. I also agree with some of the others that you should sacrifice size for cut. The reason I say that is because unless she''s into jewelry, or comes from a background where she was surrounded by larger stones, she probably has no clue what a 2, 3, or 5 carat stone really looks like. I''m assuming 5 carats was just an outrageous joke the two of you concocted off the top of your heads, so I suspect--especially if she''s small--a 1.75 to 2 will look huge enough to her.

 

[Islandia]

I think I am leaning towards just going with the smaller stone. While I appreciate your advice headlight, I think that the most significant thing is that I want to be really proud of the stone that I get for my future fiancee, and I wouldn''t be able to avoid the feeling of somehow cheating if I got a lower quality and larger stone. Plus you are absolutely right that I think a young lady in her mid 20s wearing a huge stone would seem at the least out of place, and probably present more problems for her in various unsavory forms! Of course I will always keep in mind that her dream stone is that 5ct so I am sure I could be persuaded to do an upgrade one of these later anniversaries.

Today I went to the local B&M store to pick up some more information about the first diamond, and they told me that only high end laboratories had Sarin machines and things of that nature and it would probably cost a few hundred dollars just to get that information. As a result, I must have suffered some form of temporary insanity, because I decided right then and there that wiring thousands of dollars to an internet vendor I had never met for a diamond I had never seen would not be any more risky than getting a straight answer out of my local jeweler. I called up Tony at Union diamond and he emailed me the cert for this stone here:

Certificate: EGL-USA
Shape: Round
Cut: Ideal
Carat: 1.73
Color: F
Clarity: SI2

Measurements: 7.72-7.67-4.78
Depth Percentage: 62.1 %
Table Percentage: 56 %
Crown Height: 15.6%
Crown Angle: 35.6
Pavilion Depth: 43%
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: TN-M
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None (Inert)


Plugging in those numbers into the HCA calculator seems to give me different values depending on whether I put in the percentage versus the actual angles. Any thoughts on this stone?

Steve

 

[headlight]

Date: 5/16/2005 8:33:48 PM
Author: Islandia


I think I am leaning towards just going with the smaller stone. While I appreciate your advice headlight, I think that the most significant thing is that I want to be really proud of the stone that I get for my future fiancee, and I wouldn''t be able to avoid the feeling of somehow cheating if I got a lower quality and larger stone. Plus you are absolutely right that I think a young lady in her mid 20s wearing a huge stone would seem at the least out of place, and probably present more problems for her in various unsavory forms! Of course I will always keep in mind that her dream stone is that 5ct so I am sure I could be persuaded to do an upgrade one of these later anniversaries.

Today I went to the local B&M store to pick up some more information about the first diamond, and they told me that only high end laboratories had Sarin machines and things of that nature and it would probably cost a few hundred dollars just to get that information. As a result, I must have suffered some form of temporary insanity, because I decided right then and there that wiring thousands of dollars to an internet vendor I had never met for a diamond I had never seen would not be any more risky than getting a straight answer out of my local jeweler. I called up Tony at Union diamond and he emailed me the cert for this stone here:

Certificate: EGL-USA
Shape: Round
Cut: Ideal
Carat: 1.73
Color: F
Clarity: SI2

Measurements: 7.72-7.67-4.78
Depth Percentage: 62.1 %
Table Percentage: 56 %
Crown Height: 15.6%
Crown Angle: 35.6
Pavilion Depth: 43%
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: TN-M
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None (Inert)


Plugging in those numbers into the HCA calculator seems to give me different values depending on whether I put in the percentage versus the actual angles. Any thoughts on this stone?

Steve

You are still "cheating" as you put it, if you are going with EGL (I don''t care if it is USA -- it is either GIA/AGS or it isn''t IMO), and you are still going with SI2, while looking at a stone larger than a one carat -- I''m not sure what you are accomplishing here -- you are neither going for the finer quality nor for the significantly larger size

 

[Dancing Fire]

Steve
don''t compare EGL price with AGS/GIA price,EGL should be cheaper for the same grade.if you don''t mind me asking. what kind of budget do you have in mind?

 

[Islandia]

Date: 5/16/2005 9:09:11 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
Steve
don''t compare EGL price with AGS/GIA price,EGL should be cheaper for the same grade.if you don''t mind me asking. what kind of budget do you have in mind?

As I mentioned initially I would like to keep my budget to around $10k I can fudge that a little if something exceptional comes along.

 

[Islandia]

Date: 5/16/2005 8:44:15 PM
Author: headlight
You are still ''cheating'' as you put it, if you are going with EGL (I don''t care if it is USA -- it is either GIA/AGS or it isn''t IMO), and you are still going with SI2, while looking at a stone larger than a one carat -- I''m not sure what you are accomplishing here -- you are neither going for the finer quality nor for the significantly larger size

I am really confused now headlight!

My thought was that I would stay in the 1.5-1.75 C range and hopefully F/G in color. I honestly don''t really see inclusions in SI1/SI2 without squinting and staring at the diamond for a long time so I would be okay with something that was "eye clean" whatever that happens to mean. My biggest concern was getting a quality cut stone, which should be independent of any lab certification as far as I can tell as long as the dimensions check out and it looks good under an idealscope. My thought was that I am planning on getting whatever I buy independently checked anyway, so the certificate means nothing to me. If the stone doesn''t check out then I would return it, otherwise the rock is the rock whatever the piece of paper says about it no? Resale value has no part in my decision because I am naive enough to think that one engagement ring is all that my SO and I will ever need.

Steve

 

[codex57]

Be careful. My budget was $10K too. I thought I''d fudge a little if I found something spectacular. I ended up spending close to $18K. Yes, she''s deliriously happy, but it was serious overkill. A few grand would have been better spent somewhere else. No regrets, just warning you that you really need to set a hard budget. Say $10K as the goal, but absolutely no more than $14K. No matter what.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 5/16/2005 8:33:48 PM
Author: Islandia



I must have suffered some form of temporary insanity, because I decided right then and there that wiring thousands of dollars to an internet vendor I had never met for a diamond I had never seen would not be any more risky than getting a straight answer out of my local jeweler.

That a neat way to put it !


Is there any H-SI lurking around ? EGL's "F" is probably close to "G" anyway ... and that is not much of a price issue, between SI2 and I1 there's some significant gap - so it better be that this one does not cross it.

One 2.1 cts H/Si2 AGS0 that might be worth asking about. Union Diamond does not list it, but perhaps they could call this one or a matching choice in. I know that goes beyond 10k... for the mass. Staying under that 2 carat mark does it - and it doesn't get much closer than 1.94cts H/Si2 AGS. Since clarity remains unknows in both until further details are available, it may be worth checking clarity plots and stats to begin with. If a certain SI2 looked clean to you, this does not mean that all will.

About the different HCA scores (by % versus angles) - this is usually the case. One unit difference is not rare (had some stats once) and more entirely possible. That's why direct observation tools (Iscope or, well, your own experience) have their say even after measuring proportions.