Does H&A mean Ideal cut?

[kvitanis]

This probably sounds like a no so smart question, but does a diamond with "Hearts and Arrows" mean that the diamond is an ideal cut?
Also, I was on Blue Nile.com, and in doing the interactive search, I set the cut for round diamonds to Ideal, but when the search results came up, polish/ symmetry wasn''t all excellent/excellent. Does this mean that it is not an ideal cut diamond? And is there a noticeable difference if the cut says Ideal, and the polish/symmetry is very good/very good? Thanks
katina

 

[Rank Amateur]

Nope. It doesn't even mean it is a diamond.

Cutting for crisp hearts and arrows does show the skill and care of the cutter and his emphasis on symmetry. Often these cafeful, skilled guys are cutting to ideal proportions as they cut an H&A. Conversely, nearly all very very well cut goods will have at least a decent H&A image. "Happy coincidence" some call it.

 

[WinkHPD]

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On 9/16/2004 3:01:54 PM kvitanis wrote:

I set the cut for round diamonds to Ideal, but when the search results came up, polish/ symmetry wasn't all excellent/excellent. Does this mean that it is not an ideal cut diamond? And is there a noticeable difference if the cut says Ideal, and the polish/symmetry is very good/very good? Thanks
katina----------------

As previously stated the H&A does not mean ideal.

As for your second question. Most people can not even with a microscope tell the deiiference between very good and excellent on the polish and symmetry. Heck, even a very high prcentage of jewelers, who perhaps might be expected to be able to tell the difference, especially with a microscope, can not. I would guess that the percentage of people at the retail end of the business who could will be at LESS than 25%.

Of course, I could easily be wrong...

Wink

 

[dimonbob]

It probably depends on whose H&A you are looking at.
If it is a particular brand H&A it will have an AGS Ideal certificate.

But to be fair...There are many diamonds being represented as H&A that are not Ideal.

"Technically" to be a true Ideal cut it must have an AGS Ideal Diamond Grading Report. A GIA certified diamond with EX EX and a Sarin that says AGS 0 does not make it an Ideal.

The GIA graders are not trained the same as the AGS graders when it comes to cut.

I am not putting down the GIA EX EX. It is a great diamond and expertly cut but it is not an Ideal.

 

[Jennifer5973]

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On 9/16/2004 6:30:10 PM dimonbob wrote:

It probably depends on whose H&A you are looking at.
If it is an ACA H&A it will have an AGS Ideal certificate.

But to be fair...There are many diamonds being represented as H&A that are not Ideal.

'Technically' to be a true Ideal cut it must have an AGS Ideal Diamond Grading Report. A GIA certified diamond with EX EX and a Sarin that says AGS 0 does not make it an Ideal.

The GIA graders are not trained the same as the AGS graders when it comes to cut.

I am not putting down the GIA EX EX. It is a great diamond and expertly cut but it is not an Ideal.
----------------

To the human eye, what does that mean? If the diamond scores an AGS0 on the Sarin and has Ex/Ex is it any less pleasing that one that went through the AGS and got the labeling of "Ideal"?

 

[dimonbob]

"To the human eye, what does that mean? If the diamond scores an AGS0 on the Sarin and has Ex/Ex is it any less pleasing that one that went through the AGS and got the labeling of "Ideal"?"

Truthfully NO.

The AGS Ideal is just proof that the diamonds has been more expertly cut. The next level up is the Super Ideal Cut which has an AGS Ideal report and true H&A.

 

[hoorray]

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On 9/16/2004 6:35:47 PM Jennifer5973 wrote:

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On 9/16/2004 6:30:10 PM dimonbob wrote:

It probably depends on whose H&A you are looking at.
If it is an ACA H&A it will have an AGS Ideal certificate.

But to be fair...There are many diamonds being represented as H&A that are not Ideal.

'Technically' to be a true Ideal cut it must have an AGS Ideal Diamond Grading Report. A GIA certified diamond with EX EX and a Sarin that says AGS 0 does not make it an Ideal.

The GIA graders are not trained the same as the AGS graders when it comes to cut.

I am not putting down the GIA EX EX. It is a great diamond and expertly cut but it is not an Ideal.
----------------

To the human eye, what does that mean? If the diamond scores an AGS0 on the Sarin and has Ex/Ex is it any less pleasing that one that went through the AGS and got the labeling of 'Ideal'?

----------------

If it requires an AGS Ideal cert to be Ideal, "Ideal" is a label, almost a brand. Brands and labels don't change the way something looks. If the proportions, symmetry and polish all meet the AGS criteria of Ideal then the stone will look the same as one with the label.

I have always assumed that GIA Ex EX is the equivalent of AGS Ideal Ideal for symmetry and polish. Is this not true?

 

[WinkHPD]

I must respectfully dissagree with Diamond Bob. You may not get all of the information that you need to confirm that a stone is an ideal from a GIA cert, but that in no way means that a stone with a GIA cert is not idea.

I think for you to state that so catagorically creates confusion in the minds of the consumer that is not in the best interest of either the consumer or the trade.

While it is true that a stone of 56% table and 61% Depth may not be ideal if the crown or pavilion angles are off, it is much more likely that the stone will indeed be ideal, and this can easily be confirmed with a Sarin or OGI report.

Wink

 

[niceice]

The terms "Hearts & Arrows" and "Ideal" are frequently mis-used and mis-represented by the industry because they have become the common buzz words relied on by some jewelers in an attempt to pull yet another one over on their customers... By definition, an ideal cut diamond is one that has a combination of proportions that falls within a precise set of parameters:

Table Diameter: 52.4 - 57.5%
Crown Angle: 33.7 - 35.8° degrees
Pavilion Angle: 40.15 - 41.20 degrees
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Medium, Slightly Thick
Culet Size: None, Pointed, Very Small, Small, or Medium

And which has been graded as having either AGS Ideal polish and symmetry or GIA Excellent polish and symmetry. Now this is the strict definition adhered to by those of us who are responsible about how we represent things, most dealers here on PS included.

Then there is a looser definition which appears to include anything that is diamond and round in shape... For instance, we had a customer contact us not too long ago to inquire as to why our "ideal cut diamonds" were "so much more expensive" than the other "ideal cut diamonds" that he had found on another web site with the same color and clarity... So we looked at the diamonds listed on the other site and every diamond was listed like this:

1.10 carats, G color, VS-2 clarity, "Ideal Cut" 62.3% total depth / 61% table / good polish / very good symmetry and the price...

And for the next thirty minutes we had to explain the difference between an actual "ideal cut diamond" and a diamond which would only be "ideal" for somebody to sell so that it could be removed from their inventory listing

You'll note from the combination of parameters that we provided for the zero ideal cut rating above that a total depth measurement is not specified, this is because the AGS Laboratory which created the definition did not feel that the total depth measurement was as important as the combination of crown and pavilion angles... Hey, we disagree, but to each his own... We'd be trying to keep the total depth between 59 - 61.8% but that's just us. We also wouldn't be going for such a spread on the crown and pavilion angles, but you've got to appease the masses by making the range of parameters broad enough for the cutters to drive a truck through our they wouldn't use the lab - they would send everything through the GIA where the crown and pavilion angles aren't published so the public can't determine whether a diamond is ideal cut or not without an OGI or Sarin computerized proportions analysis... You can hide a lot in a lab report by ommission if your customer doesn't know what to ask for.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

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On 9/16/2004 9:00:43 PM niceice wrote:

By definition, an ideal cut diamond is one that has a combination of proportions that falls within a precise set of parameters:

Table Diameter: 52.4 - 57.5%
Crown Angle: 33.7 - 35.8° degrees
Pavilion Angle: 40.15 - 41.20 degrees
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Medium, Slightly Thick
Culet Size: None, Pointed, Very Small, Small, or Medium

.----------------

Remeber the term that you are referring to applies to those who believe that the AGS has the final say.
In Japan for e.g. the opinions are different. I have my version too. EGL has theirs etc etc.

Now we know that the new AGS standard will change next year; it will include 47% table sizes and 30 or 31 degree crown angles. it will encompas 37% more range in proportions.

So pick your version of ideal cut.

 

[WinkHPD]

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On 9/16/2004 9:00:43 PM niceice wrote:

By definition, an ideal cut diamond is one that has a combination of proportions that falls within a precise set of parameters:

Table Diameter: 52.4 - 57.5%
Crown Angle: 33.7 - 35.8° degrees
Pavilion Angle: 40.15 - 41.20 degrees
Girdle Thickness: Thin, Medium, Slightly Thick
Culet Size: None, Pointed, Very Small, Small, or Medium

And which has been graded as having either AGS Ideal polish and symmetry or GIA Excellent polish and symmetry. Now this is the strict definition adhered to by those of us who are responsible about how we represent things, most dealers here on PS included.----------------

I must respectfully take minor dissagreement here also. In all of my education at GIA I do not remember ever being told or taught that Excellent/Excellent had any thing to do with the determination of whether or not the stone was cut to ideal proportions. That includes the many refresher and continuing education classes that I have taken.

True, to get the AGS tripple 0 cut rating you must have those things, but a stone can be an ideal cut diamond by the GIA definition without them. When Tolkowski made his thesis, it was about the angles and not the symmetry or polish.

Mind you this is a minor dissagreement, as I have TONS of respect for Robbin and Todd.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

My definition of super ideal cut on anything over melee size is:

Diameter variation of no more than .05mm
facet variation of no more than .3 degrees for all like facets.
crown: between 34.3-34.7 degrees.
Pav. between 40.5-40.8 degrees
table 56-57
depth 60-61.5
Ideal/ex polish and symmetry.
Close to niceice grade B h&a pattern.
eyeclean at 6 inces or better
Full sarin/ogi required
I color or better
poping ideal-scope image.
OPtional info but nice to have:
triple vh B-scope
9.8 isee2


Ideal.
Diameter variation of no more than .09mm
facet variation of no more than .6 degrees for all like facets.
table 55-58
crown: between 34.3-34.9 degrees.
Pav. between 40.5-40.9 degrees
depth between 60-61.5
vg polish and symmetry or better
nice h&a pattern
eyeclean at 6 inces or better
Full sarin/ogi required
J color or better
poping ideal-scope image.