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does anyone NOT like hearts and arrows?

sushi

sushi

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
221
Hi All,

For it seems like eternity I've been trying to buy a pair of studs, and i try to use any knowledge i can get from here. I have rejected HUNDREDS of stones that i quite liked (or was uneducated to tell the difference), by using the HCA. All triple EX gia (i know now that doesn't mean anything), and some of them i think looked perfect, but i still turned them down looking for the "perfect" stones for me.

This brings me to my H&A question. I haven't really seen that many in person, just online and it seems to be that there is a big black star in the middle of stones with h&a. I have to be honest and say that is it is visible, then i wouldn't want that. So am i wasting my time with the HCA? If i don't particularly want H&A, and am happy with a triple ex gia stone that ticks all my other boxes? To get the really low HCA score, then it seems they all have H&A.

What is the appeal of H&A? I am presuming I have got something wrong, otherwise they wouldn't be praised so much here. Can you see the black arrows easily? or is it a screen issue?

if i don't like the h&a what should i be looking for then?

Thank you!

The search must end soon, by poor ears are really naked!

xoxo sushi
 
The black arrows are black because they are reflecting a camera positioned in front of them. I have an ACA from Whiteflash, and sometimes I see silvery arrows. Generally, I just see flash and sparkle. Unless you position something dark in front of the diamond, you don't see the dark arrows. But diamonds do reflect the environment around them, and when you get them close to your face, you are blocking some of the light from entering and introducing a big, solid obstruction. So you may see the phenomena from time to time.

The "arrows" photo is prized because it shows the strong symmetry and precision of cutting. It's not what the diamond looks like every day. If you can, visit a local jeweler, like a Shane Co, and ask to see AGS ideal (AGS0) stones. Not all ideal performers will have an H&A pattern, but an arrow-type pattern is typical in a well cut, ideal/excellent symmetry round brilliant with the standard number of facets (57-58). You can see a guaranteed performer that has been evaluated for light performance.

As to H&A - it's not something that I look for specifically. Keep in mind that there's no grading standard for H&A, and anyone can make that claim. It's a marketing gimmick. But a well-cut, symmetrical RB with the standard number of facets will display an arrows pattern. That is not a big black pattern that's visible in your diamond all the time.

ETA: Just wanted to add that, diamonds are reflectors of light. Colored objects in front of a diamond are reflecting colored light (that's how you see the color orange - it is actually reflecting back to your eyes the orange spectrum of light, you think things are "flat," but you perceive color because of light reflection). So, put a colored object in front of a well-cut diamond, and the diamond will reflect that color in some of its facets NO MATTER WHAT the faceting pattern. If it's an extra-faceted diamond, like a 100-faceted one, you may get a few very small, splintery facet reflections of the color. If the diamond has fewer, broader facets, then you'll see bigger chunks of color. But any diamond that is performing like it should be (reflecting back the light that is entering the top of the diamond) will show facets reflecting the color of an object in front of the diamond. A diamond with leakage, that relies on light entering from the bottom and sides, may not show the phenomenon as much, but this is a poorly-performing diamond. Put a big black object in front of ANY well-cut diamond, and you will see black facets reflected in the diamond.
 
To illustrate why you see the black arrows, I'm going to borrow some shots posted by Kenny of his Asscher stones (not H&A, obviously) and his photography setup. You can see how the diamond reflects the colors of an object placed in front of it.




ETA: One more observation - you'll get a dark reflection in a diamond from your head obstructing the light the same way every object casts a black shadow, comprende? You'll get a dark reflection in the diamond because your head is casting a shadow.

kennysasschers.jpg

kennyscamerasetup.jpg
 
how interesting! Thank you so much!

I just had a conversation with BGD online. i have a stone on hold in my local jeweler. It is 1.9 HCA, and has H&A. I gave the details to the live chat sales person and they said it was a bad stone that would leak light. I thought it was very pretty.

I actually hate looking for diamonds... its a nightmare (and i know how spoilt it sounds!)

xoxo sushi
 
actually one more thing, is it ok to ask a shop if they can provide you with idealscope/assett images? even though you are looking at it yourself instore?
 
sushi|1340984519|3225926 said:
actually one more thing, is it ok to ask a shop if they can provide you with idealscope/assett images? even though you are looking at it yourself instore?
Click to expand...

You can buy your own ASET and take it with you to evaluate diamonds in-store. http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=23&ShowAdd=Y

IMO, though, I'd get a Whiteflash ACA, Expert Selection, or Premium Selection, or a BGD Signature, Blue, or Select stone, or a Blue Nile signature stone, or ANY stone that's been graded AGS 0 (ideal) for light performance. They've already been evaluated to be excellent performers. No more guesswork, no agonizing, no HCA. Just turn the key. If you're really stretching the budget, then you may find it worth sifting through the haystack to find an "undiscovered" great performer with the HCA, but if it's stressing you out, I'd just take the easy route.
 
milton,

You hit the nail on the head.. I am working to a small budget, and really trying to get something great for my budget. But maybe ill buy an ideascope anyway, its fun to own these things...

Im looking for a pair also to make my life harder. I thought i found something that i liked in the shop, but BGD put me off. I can't get my head around paying 20 - 25% more for stones that are branded a certain way. i can't help but think i can just find something great. Im a lost cause :(

Thanks for the help!!! i really appreciate it

xox sushi
 
Post your budget and what you're looking for, and we can probably help.
 
I hate to say it, but you are kind of doing this the hard way. If you buy a single stone from a local jeweler and then have to look for a match, you are going to have a headache for sure! I have bought studs twice for myself and also have helped a lot of people here, and there is no better way than to use a vendor who specializes in ideal cut stones and you can match up all the specs right here online! I used WhiteFlash because they usually have the best selection of matching stones. And you don't have to go with their top ACA stones because Expert Selection and Premium Select stones usually are going to look every bit as good. So I would strongly encourage you to do it this way because we could probably find you a pair in a few minutes. Plus they can be upgraded if you ever wanted to do so.
 
Hi Diamondseeker, (and milton again)

Oh I'm not doing it separately, I'm looking for them together... i just wasn't that clear before. I didn't explain everything. I actually have 2 stones on hold, both looked fab to me, but one appears as 1.9, one as 4.9. I was just discussing the 1.9 stone with BGD for reference.

If you can help, that would be amazing! I would have bought the stones in the shop, but once i got home and saw the HCA score, I've stopped again. ideally i want to match the price of these, and specs but with better HCA.

They are:
D/E

s12 (eye clean, one has a small carbon spot, but can hide under a claw. Also they looked so sparkly in the store (lighting i know), that i didn't see the carbon with my eye.

.82 and .83

both GIA excellent

price total $8500 (over 10)

Thank you again!!

xoxo sushi
 
Hi Diamondseeker,

Thank you so much for taking the time to look at this for me...

So here is a question for you. With the 2 stones i currently have on hold that are D and E basically the same size, am i correct in understanding that these g's will show whiter as they cut is better? I'm very color sensitive. I usually think my Ering is whiter than other D's (which i am sure it isn't), but i can usually see color...

would it help if i gave you the numbers of the local stones?

thank you again!

sushi xoxo
 
Any well cut modern round brilliant will display arrows, whether they achieve an H&A designation or not. H&A refers to the precision of the cut and the symmetry of each facet, not to the style of the cut per se. The arrows are simply a result of how a round brilliant is cut when cut *well* to optimize light play according to current standards. So in my opinion to not like H&A means you don't like a well cut modern RB! More power to you I suppose, but a well cut modern RB seems to be the whole point... I digress. At any rate, you cannot see arrows as black in real life, you have to actively work to photograph them. If you notice arrows at all the yare typically silvery.
 
hi dreamer,

thanks for the input. It seems as usual i am wrong hahah. I now officially "like" hearts and arrows!

xoxo sushi!
 
hi dreamer,

thanks for the input. It seems as usual i am wrong hahah. I now officially "like" hearts and arrows!

xoxo sushi!
 
sushi|1340988397|3225981 said:
hi dreamer,

thanks for the input. It seems as usual i am wrong hahah. I now officially "like" hearts and arrows!

xoxo sushi!
Click to expand...

:lol:

There have been many posters before who do not like the modern RB look and don't like H&A. Too "organized" and "sterile". valid esthetic judgements. For me, I would prefer to buy an OEC or another cut type rather than buy a disorganized looking RB, but its a personal choice. There is not TRUE right or wrong!

If you don't like arrows then look for stones with very very long lower girdles -- like over 80%. It will make the arrows so thin as to be invisible and create a very bright white stone.
 
Dreamer_D|1340988900|3225989 said:
If you don't like arrows then look for stones with very very long lower girdles -- like over 80%. It will make the arrows so thin as to be invisible and create a very bright white stone.
Click to expand...

wow ok. I really think I'm opening a can of whoop ass worms now. I don't even know how to look for that! And i would need to see examples side by side to really understand, but I'm very sure my jeweler here can't do that...

What part of the numbers am i looking for, to find a low girdle? does that mean a deep stone? will they then perform badly on HCA?

sorry for all the questions?

thank you !

sushi xoxo
 
sushi, ideal cut stones are going to be the brightest on your ears. You aren't going to see arrows in stones that small unless you really look closely. I A G will face up very white especially on the ears. Someone like Phoenix here who has a large F solitaire wears J color for her studs because they face up white and you certainly can't see them from the sides. I'd just personally rather have G SI1's over SI2's in any color, but that is just my preference to not go too low in any of the specs. They just didn't have matched pairs in D-F in SI stones and they would have been higher than your budget.
 
diamond seeker - thanks, noted! ill have a chat to husband tomorrow

xoxo sushi
 
I like them in studs and stones smaller than .3ct each but I prefer modified cuts like the Star129 to a standard H&A ideal.
 
here are 3 BGD H&A stones...

here is 2 pics of the same pendant. the first pic was to capture the arrows on purpose. the second pic does not (rarely) show the dark arrows when wearing the pendant.

3stonepend3.jpg

3stonependant_044.jpg
 
Ame - Ive never heard of star 129 diamonds, doing the research now. Fascinating.! Thanks

Dancing Fire - great shots and a great necklace. I see what you mean, i can't see the arrows, thank you!!

sushi xoxo
 
by the way I've just been sent the wholesale list by a local dealer. There are HUNDREDS of diamonds on there, i just can't navigate it. its to overwhelming!
 
sushi|1340992478|3226044 said:
by the way I've just been sent the wholesale list by a local dealer. There are HUNDREDS of diamonds on there, i just can't navigate it. its to overwhelming!
Click to expand...

That's terrible, they should help you find a few good matches to choose from with your desired specs. FWIW, I've heard folks have good results with ID Jewelry (www.idjewelryonline.com) and Yekutiel hand-picking stones (sometimes uncerted) that are great matches and good buys.
 
rubybeth|1340993101|3226052 said:
That's terrible, they should help you find a few good matches to choose from with your desired specs. FWIW, I've heard folks have good results with ID Jewelry (www.idjewelryonline.com) and Yekutiel hand-picking stones (sometimes uncerted) that are great matches and good buys.
Click to expand...

thanks ruth, ill pop them an email to see what they can do. to be fair to them though, they are a trade, so i suppose i should be an expert that knows what i am looking for. Plus their prices reflect that... but i don't know what I'm looking for haha

xoxo sushi
 
milton333|1340983803|3225920 said:
To illustrate why you see the black arrows, I'm going to borrow some shots posted by Kenny of his Asscher stones (not H&A, obviously) and his photography setup. You can see how the diamond reflects the colors of an object placed in front of it.




ETA: One more observation - you'll get a dark reflection in a diamond from your head obstructing the light the same way every object casts a black shadow, comprende? You'll get a dark reflection in the diamond because your head is casting a shadow.
Click to expand...

Milton, thanks for using my pics. I'm honored. :wavey:
It's a revealing demonstration of how diamonds are just little boxes of mirrors and windows, since none of those pretty colors were the result of diffraction, just reflection.
 
sushi|1340992393|3226041 said:
Ame - Ive never heard of star 129 diamonds, doing the research now. Fascinating.! Thanks
Click to expand...
GOG sells them, not sure their current stock. But they have access to tons!
 
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