Do you want to see how sausage is made?

[Rfisher]

I guess that might have a negative connotation.
How about ‘do you think vendors methods of operation and idiosyncrasies should be discussed on PS?’

Or do you think it should be kept only in private discussions offline and in private FB groups - not for public viewing?

Recently, I was asking about available options and the vendor said to me ‘you choose- I don’t want to get blasted on PS’.
I’ve never discussed PS with this vendor.

I believe discussing experiences here or asking opinions isn’t blasting.
Should it be only praise here? No recount of resolved hurdles and concessions?
Tidbits of info on vendors - to know what to expect - only available to those already in connection with the private groups and personal contacts?

Or - is what I consider constructive actually ‘blasting’ a vendor?

Maybe we go back to the old PS standard replay to any non prolific poster who isn’t already linked up outside of PS - asking any vendor/project questions, or having any issue and asking for guidance, ‘custom isn’t for everyone’ and leave it at that?

 

[missy]

It’s a tough situation all around. It has big benefits of course but with those are potential negatives. A double edged sword so to speak.

I think one has to take the good with the bad. And I think to be truly a consumer based forum people should share both the good and the bad.

I’d prefer not knowing personal details of their lives because sometimes one finds out things that might negatively impact one’s perception of said vendor. And I can’t do business with someone who has views I might find abhorrent. JMO.

 

[Polabowla]

I think it's unfair to consumers to only post the good; or to discuss any issues in private groups. How would someone without an "in" learn important information to avoid a possible costly mistake or hours of frustration or even just a mismatch ?

So much harm happened in the community I grew up in because people would never say anything negative so as not to be guilty of "harmful gossip" .
But what about the poor people who kept getting hurt because no one told them?

 

[Rfisher]

Thank you for your thoughts @missy
and @Polabowla

It’s pretty sucky to find out a vendor was told something inaccurately (or being generous here) incompletely that you’ve said here.
The vendor may laugh it off - but obviously that’s not true feelings.

I have no problem in discussing with them anything I’ve actually written.

Perception is a variable, text doesn’t show tone -
But I doubt this applies here.

 

[dk168]

My 2p....

I would be very wary of a vendor if I could only read about its good products/services/communications/whatever without any bad points, as I do not believe a vendor can be 100% good with 0% being bad.

I am also wary that bad reviews could be very one-sided and only from the point of view of the consumer who has been "wronged".

What makes a good vendor to me personally is what they would do to rectify an issue if something does not go according to plan.

DK

 

[Rfisher]

My 2p....

I would be very wary of a vendor if I could only read about its good products/services/communications/whatever without any bad points, as I do not believe a vendor can be 100% good with 0% being bad.

I am also wary that bad reviews could be very one-sided and only from the point of view of the consumer who has been "wronged".

What makes a good vendor to me personally is what they would do to rectify an issue if something does not go according to plan.

DK

Yes!
But I’m not really talking about ‘bad’ reviews from a poster who felt they were ‘wronged’.

 

[dk168]

Yes!
But I’m not really talking about ‘bad’ reviews from a poster who felt they were ‘wronged’.

Sorry, I'll leave it as that, as I might have mis-understood the topic of discussion.

DK

 

[Polabowla]

Yes!
But I’m not really talking about ‘bad’ reviews from a poster who felt they were ‘wronged’.

Can you clarify then, because that's what i thought as well?

 

[Rfisher]

@Polabowla @dk168

my topic isn’t intended as the hypothetical poster feeling “wronged” by the vendor and coming here to vent out of spite. Or to not like the vendors decision and coming here with the result of the vendor changing direction due to bad publicity here.

Is talking about a vendors SOP bad mouthing the vendor and that gets people upset?
Talking here about the vendors methods of operation in the thought of “ if I knew then what I know know I could/would have approached or handled it differently to a better outcome”

is talking about errors/mistakes/mishaps that do happen to everyone occasionally - and how they were resolved one way or the other, considered trashing the vendor that gets people upset?

or should one keep their vendor/project issues to themselves /private groups? And just SMTB with pretty pictures?

ive said here repeatedly hearing others talk constructively about vendors and projects greatly helps me navigate with those vendors. Or not contact at all.
Maybe my viewpoint isn’t common and that’s what I’m questioning.

 

[Rockdiamond]

If you're interested in "the other side".....
It is an "interesting" situation when someone calls, and they are using PS terminology, and or analysis methodology- which the vendor may or may not agree with....
ASET is an easy one to point to......the majority of people posting are advised to get an ASET......
It does put the vendor in an unusual position if they don't subscribe to the use of the tool.
Another might be about clarity- or cut, or other aspects which aren't really carved in stone- but may seem that way to certain readers.

The thought of how it's going to play in public ( on PS) is ...or should be- on the mind of any vendor worth his salt, IMO.
I tell my kids- whatever you say- or write- it will be there to bite you in the butt if you're not careful with your words.....

I do think that the reactions of vendors are indicative and informative for readers- both tradespeople and consumers alike,

 

[Polabowla]

I think it is very important to have all the information that we can openly in public, so people can make their own best informed decisions. And so that people can't get away with doing wrong things because it's hidden.
How many times do we think oh i wish I knew xyz (shoddy work, poor communication, whatever) before I spent all that money?

Even personalities don't always mesh well.
One person doing custom work for a client might need more direction, another might want more freedom to do what they like.
If you go in expecting to give very exact instructions , but the vendor expects to be given creative license it can cause a lot of angst.
Instead, if you know beforehand you can choose a better fit.

 

[Polabowla]

As far as vendors getting "upset" I find that a bit childish.

I'm always super respectful, but it's not my job to keep you from getting upset (especially when there is no reason to be.)

 

[CSpan]

@Polabowla @dk168

my topic isn’t intended as the hypothetical poster feeling “wronged” by the vendor and coming here to vent out of spite. Or to not like the vendors decision and coming here with the result of the vendor changing direction due to bad publicity here.

Is talking about a vendors SOP bad mouthing the vendor and that gets people upset?
Talking here about the vendors methods of operation in the thought of “ if I knew then what I know know I could/would have approached or handled it differently to a better outcome”

is talking about errors/mistakes/mishaps that do happen to everyone occasionally - and how they were resolved one way or the other, considered trashing the vendor that gets people upset?

or should one keep their vendor/project issues to themselves /private groups? And just SMTB with pretty pictures?

ive said here repeatedly hearing others talk constructively about vendors and projects greatly helps me navigate with those vendors. Or not contact at all.
Maybe my viewpoint isn’t common and that’s what I’m questioning.

I have so many thoughts but I need to actually sit down to write them out.

But in the meantime I think I have a great example:

Certain vendors do not charge for CADs or are very tolerant of multiple CAD changes

If am I working with someone who sends their CADs out then perhaps they won't be able to be as accommodating. That is totally normal and understandable.

And if I know that going in then I will be judicious with my revisions or make sure I have a firm idea in mind or perhaps not use that vendor for that particular project.

Or maybe I work through my designs via the CADs and I need to be able to tweak, again not the best vendor for me.

Or

How should I communicate?
Is the vendor great over phone but slow to email (or vice versa)

Are certain vendors more tolerant of customer involvement or does their vision prevail? I get it some folks have an aesthetic and it will come through and that is fine but it sure would be helpful to know in advance

I think this is what Rfisher is talking about. I know those sorts of things are very helpful. And these are not criticisms in my mind but key information to make decisions, sometimes per project sometimes not. In my mind it isnt any different than knowing a price range-if someone is out of my range it doesn't make them bad or make me badmouthing them if I don't use them, they just don't meet my circumstances

 

[Rfisher]

As far as vendors getting "upset" I find that a bit childish.

I'm always super respectful, but it's not my job to keep you from getting upset (especially when there is no reason to be.)

I mean to relate in this instance that it’s more the readers here get upset and go tell the vendor that their methods of operation and snafus with resolutions are being discussed.

If a vendor is being talked about unfairly / are being ‘put on blast’ or outrageous claims of scam - they do have a right to be upset.

 

[voce]

Just as there are negative experiences consumers have with vendors, vendors have bad experiences with consumers, too. I feel that a consumer forum such as this never questions the actions and behavior of the consumer, only those of vendors. Therefore, I believe this forum is innately unfair for vendors, if there are two sides to the story, but we are not allowed to criticize the faults of the consumer.

 

[Rfisher]

@voce
Sharing vendors operating procedures and how snafus get resolved on PS is considered criticism against a vendor?


This is the crux of what I’m asking.
if it can’t be discussed here - constructively- it’s insider only info and the others are left to their own to learn as they go. Thinking issues never happen to anyone else?
Rinse and repeat?

 

[anne_h]

Yes, I want to know how the sausage is made. It helps me make decisons about who I want to work with.

No, I do not think that discussing sausage making constitutes 'blasting' a vendor.

Anne

 

[Karl_K]

One of the most telling things with any vendor is how they react when things go wrong.
Things are going to go wrong.
If they develop a habit of the same thing going wrong that is a whole different ball game compared to making a mistake, fixing it and making sure it does not happen in the future as much as possible.
But again things are going to go wrong.
Over time it becomes clear which vendors really care and which are going through the motions.
Also vendors change over time, someone has left or there is a big policy change so it must be kept updated.
That is why the good, the bad, and the ugly reviews need to be posted.

 

[Big Fat Facets]

yes, i do feel it is important to know about "the good, the bad and the ugly"

and how a vendor behaves and or reacts when something goes wrongs says so much about him or her.

at the end of the day, it is about trust. can i trust him or her to do the right thing when or if something goes wrong

 

[MissGotRocks]

I think that over time lots of folks have posted about their various experiences - both good and bad. PS vendors are generally very quick to resolve issues and that does create trust. What might seem a slight to me might be considered a breach of trust by another so all things are relative.

Consumer experiences vary and while someone might think they know all the ins and outs of a business operation, most would probably be kidding themselves. They might see and experience some insight in various areas, but couldn't possibly know the process from procuring rough to pushing a finished piece out of the door. Jewelry is such a varied product that I think it would be difficult to generalize vendor prices and practices.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Just as there are negative experiences consumers have with vendors, vendors have bad experiences with consumers, too. I feel that a consumer forum such as this never questions the actions and behavior of the consumer, only those of vendors. Therefore, I believe this forum is innately unfair for vendors, if there are two sides to the story, but we are not allowed to criticize the faults of the consumer.

From a structural standpoint, what you wrote is true. As a vendor, I totally understand why you wrote it.
But if you think about it, it would be totally inappropriate for a vendor to "out" a problem client on a public forum.
I'm sure if a vendor did exhibit inappropriate behavior- management would step in.
For the forum to have value, it really shouldn't be a "level playing field"- vendors should be held to a higher standard imo.
As Karl and others have written- things will go wrong for every vendor at some point.
In my experience, when the regular vendors here have responded to consumer complaints, they followed ethical, professional behavior, for the most part. I think it's informative- I pay attention to it, from a professional standpoint. It's a learning experience for consumers and vendors alike.
The rare instances where vendors have screwed the pooch.... the onus is on them- Google never forgets.......
I'd also say that prolific non-trade members do perform the function of vetting the validity of complaints people post, most of the time. Sometimes it even goes too far in that direction where folks are afraid to complain about a vendor for fear of attack.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

It's a tribute to the overall culture of this community that there would be discussion of this nature. A real ethical reckoning as to how to bring complaints forward in a respectful way. Kudos y'all!

Not that I want to change that approach, but look around. We live in a different world today and pricescopers should not have to walk on egg shells! Every business is being measured and graded publicly through online reviews. Often the complaints are fair and accurate but sometimes they are not.

Vendors have a range of choices in how they respond to criticism from taking it as constructive and using it to improve, to ignoring the problem, to being defensive and blaming the client. The substance and tone of their response is instructive. That is why shoppers tend to steer to the negative reviews as there is often something of value to learn.

I don't think members of this community should feel the need to keep relevant information to themselves if they think it can be used constructively. As long as you are respectful, it's all good. And judging from the tone of this thread, this is a remarkably considerate community.

 

[Polabowla]

I actually found it quite upsetting when someone mentioned a negative experience with a vendor & ppl jumped all over them for their honesty.

(Tbh it also makes the vendor look bad)

 

[Cerulean]

Thanks for posing these questions @Rfisher. I am glad to see so many posters state that they would like the hear the good with the bad.

I suspect there might be a silent "constituency" of PSers who would happily suppress "bad", esp. where it contradicts their world view e.g. a vendor they like. I think many people have a hard time navigating alternate views, and (sometimes unconsciously) prefer that they just don't exist ***cough cough recent banned topics***

I think you already read my posts about multiple PSers "whistle blowing" on what I *thought* was a neutral post asking for help to a vendor, which led to a very uncomfortable exchange between us. So yeah, I'd recommend PSers be wary about posting anything borderline negative about this particular vendor, or PSers might cause issues for you (in all seriousness).

I do think this type of policing is the anti-thesis of what this consumer forum is about.

Many of these vendors don't have Yelp, Facebook, or other reviews. Anecdotes provide important data points that aren't easily available beyond the walled garden that is PS. Knowing them leads to successful outcomes, because we are informed and empowered to make the right choices for ourselves, or to make mistakes and learn from them. This can also lead to stronger vendor/client relationships bc of mutual understanding!

No one HAS to share - but interfering with, suppressing or even bullying members because of alternate experiences / views about a vendor is not good "PS citizenship".

What makes this forum so beautiful are two things:

1. The power of the knowledge shared
2. And the beautiful people who delight in a shared passion

Oh yeah...and all of the sparklies

 

[Cerulean]

It's a tribute to the overall culture of this community that there would be discussion of this nature. A real ethical reckoning as to how to bring complaints forward in a respectful way. Kudos y'all!

Not that I want to change that approach, but look around. We live in a different world today and pricescopers should not have to walk on egg shells! Every business is being measured and graded publicly through online reviews. Often the complaints are fair and accurate but sometimes they are not.

Vendors have a range of choices in how they respond to criticism from taking it as constructive and using it to improve, to ignoring the problem, to being defensive and blaming the client. The substance and tone of their response is instructive. That is why shoppers tend to steer to the negative reviews as there is often something of value to learn.

I don't think members of this community should feel the need to keep relevant information to themselves if they think it can be used constructively. As long as you are respectful, it's all good. And judging from the tone of this thread, this is a remarkably considerate community.

Very well said and commendable response.

 

[Polabowla]

Thanks for posing these questions @Rfisher. I am glad to see so many posters state that they would like the hear the good with the bad.

I suspect there might be a silent "constituency" of PSers who would happily suppress "bad", esp. where it contradicts their world view e.g. a vendor they like. I think many people have a hard time navigating alternate views, and (sometimes unconsciously) prefer that they just don't exist ***cough cough recent banned topics***

I think you already read my posts about multiple PSers "whistle blowing" on what I *thought* was a neutral post asking for help to a vendor, which led to a very uncomfortable exchange between us. So yeah, I'd recommend PSers be wary about posting anything borderline negative about this particular vendor, or PSers might cause issues for you (in all seriousness).

I do think this type of policing is the anti-thesis of what this consumer forum is about.

Many of these vendors don't have Yelp, Facebook, or other reviews. Anecdotes provide important data points that aren't easily available beyond the walled garden that is PS. Knowing them leads to successful outcomes, because we are informed and empowered to make the right choices for ourselves, or to make mistakes and learn from them. This can also lead to stronger vendor/client relationships bc of mutual understanding!

No one HAS to share - but interfering with, suppressing or even bullying members because of alternate experiences / views about a vendor is not good "PS citizenship".

What makes this forum so beautiful are two things:

1. The power of the knowledge shared
2. And the beautiful people who delight in a shared passion

Oh yeah...and all of the sparklies

I don't know what your post was, but I find this behavior extremely concerning.
People should be allowed & encouraged to post their experiences, even negative ones for all the reasons mentioned above.
No one should police anyone's reviews or experiences

 

[Big Fat Facets]

@Cerulean @Polabowla

sometimes its outright bullying other times, it's passive aggressive, covert bullying. i recently experienced a member actually speak/write as if she owned the business ... it is still bullying ... in a weak attempt to snuff out an experience someone had.

i suppose as self appointed "ambasador" to the vendor, she felt compelled to subdue and talk over what i was contributing to the op of that thread ...

i actually could have and considered posting proof to back up my experience but decided against it. just wasnt worth it, carrying on wasting precious time with a bully

 

[Cerulean]

I don't know what your post was, but I find this behavior extremely concerning.
People should be allowed & encouraged to post their experiences, even negative ones for all the reasons mentioned above.
No one should police anyone's reviews or experiences

I do appreciate it. It totally shocked and disturbed me at the time, honestly.

The thread in question didn't even name the vendor - multiple people must have trolled through my posts, or happened to have read them, where they saw that I mentioned the vendor's name in a separate thread.

I reported my own post to take it down because it creeped me out so much. I had to plead and apologize to the vendor to even continue the project during a time crunch. (Honestly they must have said something pretty crummy given the reaction?). I am not trying to be dramatic...it is just what happened.

Def over it now, but permanently tarnished my feelings towards the vendor, unfortunately. The ring was a knockout, but it wouldn't have mattered how perfect the end result was.

Anyways, sorry to threadjack. I guess I feel it is important to know that there are PSers who do weird things like this...it is a public forum after all!

 

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean @Polabowla

sometimes its outright bullying other times, it's passive aggressive, overt bullying. i recently experienced a member actually speak/write as if she owned the business ... it is still bullying ... in a weak attempt to snub out an experience someone had

Completely agree. It isn't always overt. I have seen some weird responses to seemingly fair accountings of a project. Either way, bullying in any form is not acceptable to me.

Being a fan of a vendor, while simultaneously alienating their clientele don't seem to go hand in hand to me, either....

 

[Polabowla]

That's horrible , I'm sorry you had to deal with it both here & the repercussions in real life.