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Do you believe in science?

Do you believe in science and have you gotten vaccinated?

  • 1. Yes to both.

    Votes: 56 93.3%
  • 2. No to both.

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • 3. Undecided.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4. Yes I believe in science but will not get vaccinated and I will explain in my post below.

    Votes: 3 5.0%
  • 5. No I don't believe in science but I have gotten (plan to get) vaccinated and will explain below.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    60
  • This poll will close: .

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Speaking about vaccines for the moment.

"Our key finding is that, in countries where trust in science is high, people are also more confident about vaccination."




Snip..."COVID-19 vaccines, proven to be extremely safe, are effective at protecting the public in two ways: They shield most individuals from getting sick; and they reduce the chance that people will transmit the virus to others.

Vaccines, she said, contain “a small portion of the virus, or a protein from that virus, or the machinery to help make that protein in our own bodies.” Once introduced, vaccines activate the immune system to create a memory of these elements of the virus, so inoculated people who encounter the virus again respond quickly and are protected from getting sick, Fowell said.
"


So what say you?
Do you believe in the science behind vaccines?
Or do you not trust it?

Do you believe vaccines are one of the greatest inventions in history?
I do.
Why do I believe in the science behind vaccines? Why do I believe in vaccines?
Because-

Vaccines wipe out deadly diseases.
Vaccines save millions of lives across the globe every year.
Vaccines prevent certain chronic diseases including certain cancers.
Measles, smallpox, HPV, Hepatitis B etc.
Vaccines save billions of dollars per year.
Prevention of disease is better/easier/less expensive (not to mention life saving) than treating disease.


Please share your thoughts.
I especially would appreciate those who don't believe in vaccines to share their thoughts.
I truly want to understand why you don't trust or believe in the safety or efficacy of vaccines. Especially for Covid.

Thank you.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Yes I do. I always say there is truth in numbers and this is just another instance where this is born out.
After the many thousands of shots that had been administered and the numbers falling in both transmission and death, it seemed pretty plain to me that the vaccine was effective and working. I have yet to hear an argument against this vaccine that really resonates with me.
I remember getting the polio vaccine as a child in a sugar cube. We all had to go a couple of times to designated schools or whatever to drive by and get your vaccine. Everyone was overjoyed to receive it and while I might have been too young to notice, I have never heard that anyone in my family disagreed with the method, the testing, the government directing it, the whatever of the vaccine. I think we have a different country today and while I certainly understand about those who may have been advised not to receive the vaccine due to health concerns, the rest have very different reasons for rejecting it.
It isn't the science that doesn't make sense to them - they understand that perfectly well. The method of vaccine isn't new, the FDA has not approved it because it was for emergency use (thousands dying every day certainly helps to constitute an emergency) and most folks tolerated it very well. It is their other beliefs that make them resistant.
As the case counts go up once again and the deaths increase with the new variant, it literally makes me sick. I have two grandchildren under the age of 12 who aren't eligible for the vaccine yet. I am fearful as school begins again and their exposure is increased. I hope that everyone is assessing and reassessing their reasons for not vaccinating - it truly can be the difference between life and death - not only for them but for their loved ones as well.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Got the shot and so does my wifey but there is a lot of crap science out there both around covid and not.
Scary headline about kids getting covid, based on 20 cases in the entire UK from some "scientist" and crap like that.
Don't get me started on meta studies which are totally crap.
 

123ducklings

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Science isn’t a matter of personal belief or opinion; it’s a matter of understanding.

Do you understand science? Do you understand how your immune system functions? How vaccines function? How viruses function? In America, states with the lowest vaccine rates are also among those with the lowest high school graduation rates and lowest average levels of education.
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
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I believe in the scientific method and it's important to remember that it isn't infallible. Yes, I'm vaccinated and really disappointed that I didn't become magnetized.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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When I started this thread I really wanted to (and still do) understand why some refuse to get the Covid Vaccine. I don't think the people who refuse to get the vaccine (and are cleared medically to be able to get one if they want) are going to share their reasons. Or perhaps they don't have logical reasons and their reasons are solely fear based. Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Anyway I just read this editorial and thought it was interesting so am sharing it.


Vaccine Hesitancy Is Complex​

— Try to understand, rather than dismiss, the concerns of the unvaccinated

by Edwin Leap, MD July 28, 2021


"
Given the devastation wrought by the COVID-19 pandemic, many are asking why people would be hesitant to be vaccinated against it. That's the question that bounces around the skulls of countless physicians, public health experts, journalists, politicians, and others. But before trying to answer the question, it might be reasonable to ask why people do, or fail to do, other things that negatively affect their health.



Why does a patient with diabetes come to the emergency department with a blood sugar over 500, having failed to take insulin for 2 weeks? Why does the patient with lung disease continue to smoke two packs per day despite struggling to breathe around the clock? What prompts the elderly patient with abdominal pain to sign out and go home to be with her dog? And for heaven's sake, why do young people take that first hit of heroin or methamphetamine?

The easy, heartless answer is to say that these people are just stupid. Stupid people don't take their insulin, and they keep smoking. Ignorant, uneducated people refuse medical care. Unwise, unscientific young people start using drugs.

And yet, having practiced medicine for 28 years, I can say that none of the above patients would be more likely to follow my suggestions if I told them their decisions were "stupid."



Human decisions are far more complex, nuanced, and personal than most of us realize. So, revisiting the above scenarios, it's possible that the patient with diabetes couldn't afford insulin. It could be that the smoker has few joys in life and nicotine is one of them. As so often the case, the owner of the dog has no family or friends, and her dog is her closest companion. Finally, the person using drugs may be anesthetizing a life of terrible abuse, or may come from a home where drugs were always in the background. Are their decisions concerning? They certainly are. But they are comprehensible. We needn't agree with a choice to understand it.

Still, in light of a deadly pandemic, why would people eschew a vaccination that might be life-saving for them or those around them? As before, the easy answer is: "because they are simply ignorant or don't care if they hurt other people." This argument is inadequate and unproductive. Let me suggest some alternative reasons why people might not want the vaccine.



Even as "follow the science" is a common mantra, science is often quite hard to understand. Few people understand the incredible complexities of virology, immunology, or epidemiology. Despite my own education, the intricacies of human biology and medical science still can seem a bit much to me too.

An understanding of science is not innate. Furthermore, reading and posting news clips about science with which one simply agrees is not the same as "following the science." Many people with 4-year college degrees have only a passing grasp of science at best. Likewise, high school science classes are often relatively basic. As such, our general population-wide comprehension of science makes it very difficult to explain the research that might alleviate anxieties among the unvaccinated. Any practicing physician knows how difficult this is when trying to explain a disease process, a procedure, or the results of imaging or labs to a patient.



Another commonly cited reason for vaccine hesitation is that the COVID-19 vaccine was developed and launched much more quickly than typical vaccines and most pharmaceuticals. While those who express this are often viewed with some scorn, the fact is that for years we have been told by academics in medicine that we should view pharmaceutical companies with suspicion, and that they are often dishonest in their research. It may be that some of the vaccine hesitant are only doing what they have been told to do ... until now.

Those in rural America, particularly those in the throes of the ongoing opioid crisis, might have more personal reasons to distrust Big Pharma. After all, OxyContin was sold to them as a less addictive way to manage chronic pain. And yet, the death and devastation left in the wake of the opioid crisis has been truly apocalyptic.



Many lower income individuals are distrustful of government in general, and not without cause. Poor citizens in the U.S. (and around the world) suffered terribly during the lockdowns advocated by public health professionals and government. Unable to work from home, they lost jobs, businesses, and homes as their children suffered from compromised educations, depression, and anxiety. Rates of overdose and interpersonal violence have risen significantly from the agony of the lockdowns and endless restrictions.

It was easy for those with money, or who could work from home, to tell others to stay home, order food, and watch Netflix. Those without money, both urban and rural, remain unimpressed by the sort of pseudo-scientific guidance, wrapped in politics, that nearly wrecked them. As such, their concerns about vaccine guidance might seem a little more reasonable, feeling distrustful as they certainly have reason to be.

Vaccine hesitation is certainly amplified by social media, which constantly churns out half-truths and untruths, readily shared with the click of a button. The classic example is that the vaccine implants some sort of chip in the body that allows humans to be tracked. False information abounds.



On the other hand, ideas initially treated as crazed rants turn out to have some value. For instance, there is now growing support for the idea that COVID-19 originated in a lab. The switch in this viewpoint, as formerly recalcitrant experts have hesitantly come to embrace a once reviled viewpoint, is also a source of confusion and distrust for the masses.

While problematic, no one should be surprised by the effect of social media on this debate, or on the way it has become increasingly toxic. In fact, social media is used by movements and advocates of every stripe, and not always in an honest way.

It can be very hard to know whom to trust; even more so as legacy media and Big Tech increasingly seem to apply censorship that is sharply partisan in their treatment of the pandemic. In addition, the algorithms of social media intentionally drive anxiety and division in an already divided populace in pursuit of clicks and advertising dollars.



In summary, it's not all that surprising that many people still have not gotten the COVID-19 vaccine. After treating COVID-19 patients for many months, I finally got the vaccine this past winter. I am a rural, Southern, evangelical Christian, and I have actively encouraged patients, friends, and family to be vaccinated. Unlike the general narrative, I have been met with very little pushback on the idea of vaccination. Obviously, that is anecdotal. But it is relevant.

Along with many physicians, I believe that the science of the vaccine is good and the benefit is great. While we are early in the process, and should be attentive to (and honest about) potential problems, I believe that the COVID-19 vaccination effort was one of the great scientific and governmental triumphs of the last century.

However, I work with real human beings and with their very real doubts and fears. I urge everyone to try and understand the vaccine hesitant and talk to them. Treat them as potential allies rather than enemies. Try to learn from them and apply that information to future situations. But do not, under any circumstance, treat them as simpletons or dismiss their concerns out of hand.



"
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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So far, one person voted no to both. Could that person please share their thinking about why they feel this way?

Screen Shot 2021-08-01 at 2.57.13 PM.png


It's interesting because PSers do understand science more than the general population. At least in the USA since we have less than 50% fully vaccinated here and the poll indicates that 96.2% got or are getting fully vaccinated and believe in (understand) science.
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
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Sharing more info on vaccine hesitancy:

 

PinkAndBlueBling

Brilliant_Rock
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There are so many stories of regret over not vaccinating until some loved one dies. Tragic and a hard lesson to learn.

I mask even though I'm vaccinated. I also wear a vaccine/science pin so that people don't think I'm masked because I'm not vaccinated.
 
W

westofhere

Guest
This article up at the Atlantic offers great insights, arguing essentially that vaccine refusal isn’t about individual distrust but people’s desire for social acceptance among their communities, so the individual fears ostracism or mockery if they think for themselves and get the vaccine:

 

Matata

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arguing essentially that vaccine refusal isn’t about individual distrust but people’s desire for social acceptance among their communities, so the individual fears ostracism or mockery if they think for themselves and get the vaccine:

That is playing out in Michigan and I think also Arkansas where people are disguising themselves to get the vaccine. Ostracizing family and friends for getting a potentially life-saving vaccine is an ugly form of tribalism.
 

LilAlex

Brilliant_Rock
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Don't get me started on meta studies which are totally crap.

Do you mean meta-analysis? This is a mathematically rigorous way to pool multiple under-powered studies thereby increasing sample size to the point that a hidden effect (or, just as important, a hidden lack of effect) may be found. There are spectacular meta-analyses that have led to important changes in care delivery.

I do not understand where your assessment of "totally crap" comes from.

When/if they are applied to terrible data -- as is often the case -- the outcome is usually not that informative. A well-done study is conducted with "effect size" (intervention will have big impact or small impact?) in mind so that the necessary "n" (study enrollment, in this case) can be achieved.

A study question that has led to multiple under-powered studies has likely not attracted the savviest trialists -- or else the effect size is very small and barely discernible. For questions affecting huge populations -- like blood pressure goal or aspirin after heart attack -- a miniscule but ultimately statistically significant effect can result in thousands of lives saved. (See: vaccines.)
 

kipari

Ideal_Rock
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Like @123ducklings I'm puzzled by the notion of the general public that science is a belief. I definitely know you know this @missy , so I'll just elaborate my point of view this answer the question as thoroughly as I can.

The very definition of science is that one doesn't need to believe in it. There's a hypothesis, than an experiment under defined circumstances. Then there are results from that experiment. Everything is clearly laid out so that everyone can follow what has been done and is invited to try and show the shortcomings /falsify.

It used to be a true peer review process.

Nowadays with FREE access for everyone through the internet (if it's a member only scientific publication platform anyone can enter a big library and access from there).

So everyone is invited to do their share.
Don't believe in vaccines? Show me the numbers from a solid source and I'll start talking to you.

When brilliant and leading scientists review their earlier prognostics or correct something based on new data/findings that's not "bad science" . That is actually what science does, should do , IS.

Having a dogma for 2000 years that doesn't change is called religion. There's place for both , but let's not mix those two up.





@Karl_K what you describe is not " crap science". It is not science. It's a bad media article about a publication. It is not science when a scientist utters an opinion
 
Last edited:

Cerulean

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I think referring to it as a belief thrusts the topic immediately into opposition with other beliefs, like religious ones.

I don't think that's what science is about at all.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I recently saw a woman interviewed in Florida who had all the same reasons not to get vaccinated trying to recover from COVID. She is young and healthy but still on oxygen with a long way to go to better health. Her advice? "Just get the stupid shot - I could have avoided all of this for myself and my family if I had just gotten the vaccine. It's just a shot!"

Let's hope that those who are going incognito or under the cover of darkness or whatever or whoever they are hiding from just go get the shot! You don't have to publicize the fact that you got it - just get it!
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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To clarify when I wrote “do you believe in science “ I meant the science behind how and why vaccines work.
 

PinkAndBlueBling

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@kipari Exactly. I don't believe in science. It just is. It's the proof/evidence/knowldge of a fact. According to dictionary.com, belief is "to have confidence in the truth of..." so I would say that religion is more a belief than science.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Pro tip for the uncertain: Google "smallpox."

We did not "pray" it away. G_d may have answered our prayers -- but did so through the very human activity known as science.

Preaching (haha see what I did there) to the choir. :)

See post #1.
 

MissGotRocks

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This topic makes you lose your patience quickly and my faith in mankind was further stretched as I watched people get the vaccine for a $50 gift card. A reporter was trying to explain the benefits to one man who said he didn't care about that - he wanted the gift card. So if you are paid to get a free vaccine that will most certainly save your life you are suddenly interested? Completely shameful as this man obviously was not down to his last dime - he had been eating very well!!
 

LilAlex

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Preaching (haha see what I did there) to the choir.

Oh I know where you stand (I read from the beginning). I was just using that as a jumping-off point!

Sorry if that was not clear!
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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This topic makes you lose your patience quickly and my faith in mankind was further stretched as I watched people get the vaccine for a $50 gift card. A reporter was trying to explain the benefits to one man who said he didn't care about that - he wanted the gift card. So if you are paid to get a free vaccine that will most certainly save your life you are suddenly interested? Completely shameful as this man obviously was not down to his last dime - he had been eating very well!!

Yes it makes one (if one has not already) lose faith in humanity. Completely shameful is a good way to describe it.
 

doberman

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Two of my degrees are in science, my husband's degrees are in science and my son is nearly through with his second degree in science, so I'd say I'm a believer. I also know that much of what we accept as true in medical science has been found by trial and error, and we're living through a phase of that right now.

For sure I had my vax, back in January, when they were only giving it to those with a health care practitioner's license. I was there, license in hand at 8am.
 
W

westofhere

Guest
Ten percent of Americans don’t believe we landed on the moon, so in some ways the science skepticism/wacko conspiracy theories are maybe just par for the human course. What’s new though is the ability of social media to spread the crazy, and to have major news outlets doing so. Imagine if a newscaster had said the day after that the moon landing was staged. :( And did so not because they believed it, but because it was profitable to
do so.
 
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