Home Do you believe a child can be, well....

[Steel]

Date: 4/28/2010 7:00:08 PM
Author: lyra
I feel like my sister is evil. She has borderline personality disorder and is a narcissist. She is not like other people, she is incapable of caring about anyone else, including her children. She has said and done some awful things. But generally, I think the extreme cases are a result of brain chemistry, mental illness, and developmental issues. If this is the case, all the great parenting in the world cannot 'fix' the situation, and the child does not grow out of it.

I'm sorry lyra.

I have a sibling that I know for a fact is pure evil. I still expect to see his face on the evening news. I'm not joking.

He was a nightmare child and as an adult is no different. In fact all of my siblings are seriously tapped in the head.

So yes, I think that children can be evil. But I wonder if it is possible to take an evil child and train them to behave? Your story is inspirational Lisa, I bet he never forgot you and I wonder what impact knowing you made on his life?



(Edited, no point in being vague)

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/29/2010 11:14:06 AM
Author: Steal

Date: 4/28/2010 7:00:08 PM
Author: lyra
I feel like my sister is evil. She has borderline personality disorder and is a narcissist. She is not like other people, she is incapable of caring about anyone else, including her children. She has said and done some awful things. But generally, I think the extreme cases are a result of brain chemistry, mental illness, and developmental issues. If this is the case, all the great parenting in the world cannot ''fix'' the situation, and the child does not grow out of it.

I''m sorry lyra.

I have a sibling that I know for a fact is pure evil. I still expect to see his face on the evening news. I''m not joking.

He was a nightmare child and as an adult is no different. In fact all of my siblings are seriously tapped in the head.

So yes, I think that children can be evil. But I wonder if it is possible to take an evil child and train them to behave? Your story is inspirational Lisa, I bet he never forgot you and I wonder what impact knowing you made on his life?



(Edited, no point in being vague)

Narcissist AND borderline??

Ye gods, but you have my sympathy! The stories my mom told of her narcissist sister were dreadful, I can only imagine how bad combining that with the violence of borderline would be. At least narcissists tend NOT to be physically violent...

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/29/2010 9:42:18 AM
Author: fiery

Date: 4/29/2010 4:07:18 AM
Author: Mrs Mitchell

Date: 4/28/2010 5:24:14 PM
Author:TravelingGal
Evil? Like rotten through and through?

jsm's last post on the spanking thread got me thinking...are there children who are just beyond any sort of discipline? Or do you believe if they are rotten, it's because they were brought up that way? A mixture of both?

Can a kid really be horrible INNATELY?

You still having trouble with Amelia's playdate, honey?

Seriously, I don't know. Intuitively, I want to say no. I want to say that isn't possible. Except that I have a child who was pretty much born smiling. She's good natured, happy, relaxed and confident. I'd love to say that's because I'm just the greatest parent, but the truth is, she came out like that. All I've done is not squashed it!

I haven't commented on this thread for this very reason. I also have a child that is just like your A. How she manages to stay like a ray of sunshine with two very serious and boring parents baffles me

Anyway, it's hard for me to imagine that an 'evil' child is one that was born that way rather than one that was made that way given their circumstances.

That reminds me...when Amelia was born, we had a really funny, straightforward nurse in delivery. I went into recovery, so TGuy stayed with the baby and the nurse who was giving her a bath. He told me that she told him that Amelia was a good natured baby. She squawked and protested a bit when they bathed her, but otherwise was pretty mellow. I told TGuy I bet she says that to everyone, and he said he said the same thing to the nurse, at which point she insisted, no, they don't all come out like that. Some are angrier than others, and that our baby was going to be easier.

I kind of forgot about that until now. But Amelia IS a good natured kid. I've known it early on. So if what the nurse says was true (and I'm sure she's seen a lot of babies), they come out in different vary degrees of temperment. I think all babies settle down in that first two weeks (the honeymoon period), but something about those first few hours of life might be telling?

This is an interesting thread. Actually puts the nail in the coffin on the thought of having another because what if the next kid is by nature, prone to evil? I don't know the answer to my original question here...it's hard for me to believe that children could be innately evil. The closest I can come to saying that is that I do believe some people lack the ability to feel empathy, as many of you said.

ETA, MrsM, no problems with Amelia's playdate except lack of consistent discipline from his mother. Watched him hit her 4 times last week with no consequences.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Mental health issues can be hereditary and a lot of behavior that's deemed "evil" can stem from mental health issues. So yes, I think people can be born with a predisposition to this kind of behavior. And while I'd like to think a nurturing environment from the point of conception could help prevent the ultimate outcome of evilness, I doubt it would prevent it entirely. That person will always struggle with this side of their psyche.

But you know, the Taoists say that if there wasn't evil in the world we would have no knowledge of goodness. Does this mean that innate evil is as natural as innate goodness?

ETA: I think there's a HUGE difference between evil (lacking empathy, socio or psychopathic tendencies, etc.) and just bad behavior. Bad behavior is taught and is usually a result of lack of discipline (as you pointed out TG).

 

[lyra]

Date: 4/29/2010 11:25:46 AM
Author: TravelingGal
That reminds me...when Amelia was born, we had a really funny, straightforward nurse in delivery. I went into recovery, so TGuy stayed with the baby and the nurse who was giving her a bath. He told me that she told him that Amelia was a good natured baby. She squawked and protested a bit when they bathed her, but otherwise was pretty mellow. I told TGuy I bet she says that to everyone, and he said he said the same thing to the nurse, at which point she insisted, no, they don''t all come out like that. Some are angrier than others, and that our baby was going to be easier.

I kind of forgot about that until now. But Amelia IS a good natured kid. I''ve known it early on. So if what the nurse says was true (and I''m sure she''s seen a lot of babies), they come out in different vary degrees of temperment. I think all babies settle down in that first two weeks (the honeymoon period), but something about those first few hours of life might be telling?

This is an interesting thread. Actually puts the nail in the coffin on the thought of having another because what if the next kid is by nature, prone to evil? I don''t know the answer to my original question here...it''s hard for me to believe that children could be innately evil. The closest I can come to saying that is that I do believe some people lack the ability to feel empathy, as many of you said.

ETA, MrsM, no problems with Amelia''s playdate except lack of consistent discipline from his mother. Watched him hit her 4 times last week with no consequences.

My second daughter came out screaming so loud my ears started ringing. She was peeing on me at the same time... She''ll be 20 in 2 months. Well, not much has changed. I think that nurse was probably right.

 

[lyra]

Date: 4/29/2010 11:21:08 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 4/29/2010 11:14:06 AM
Author: Steal

Date: 4/28/2010 7:00:08 PM
Author: lyra
I feel like my sister is evil. She has borderline personality disorder and is a narcissist. She is not like other people, she is incapable of caring about anyone else, including her children. She has said and done some awful things. But generally, I think the extreme cases are a result of brain chemistry, mental illness, and developmental issues. If this is the case, all the great parenting in the world cannot ''fix'' the situation, and the child does not grow out of it.

I''m sorry lyra.

I have a sibling that I know for a fact is pure evil. I still expect to see his face on the evening news. I''m not joking.

He was a nightmare child and as an adult is no different. In fact all of my siblings are seriously tapped in the head.

So yes, I think that children can be evil. But I wonder if it is possible to take an evil child and train them to behave? Your story is inspirational Lisa, I bet he never forgot you and I wonder what impact knowing you made on his life?



(Edited, no point in being vague)

Narcissist AND borderline??

Ye gods, but you have my sympathy! The stories my mom told of her narcissist sister were dreadful, I can only imagine how bad combining that with the violence of borderline would be. At least narcissists tend NOT to be physically violent...

I didn''t want to threadjack, but in fact, my sister has always been violent too. Her longest relationship to date (she''s over 50 now) was a 3 year marriage, during which time there was much violence on her part. She actually impaled him with a fork during dinner once. She''s been charged with assaulting the ex of a b/f too. She and my brother used to fight well into their teens, again very physical. She is a sociopath, but is scarily subtle. She has spent time in jail. She tends to operate under the radar to such a degree that people are actually blown away when they find out the truth. She is scary, but not serial killer scary.

 

[janinegirly]

I agree with the logic that if a child can come out angelic then the opposite can happen as well. I can see how genetics or chemical influences while in utereo might also have an impact as well (if mother was on drugs for example).

However it does seem that there is more good than eviil overall--more gentle angels then violent kids so why would that be if it is nature? I would say it's b/c we are talking extremes (incorrible,etc)--and those are always more rare. Most people have shades of both and are therefore going to be influenced by societal pressures (in addition to parental). IE if society embraced negative behavior, we'd likely see more cases of it.

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

Hmmm. Well another fascinating breakthrough in psychology and genetic research is what's called epigenetics. In other words, studies are showing that environment can actually CHANGE a person's genetic makeup and the expression of genes. I think many people here are underestimating the role of environment in a child's development... A child's development is a lot more complicated than simply being born good or evil.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/30/2010 9:13:53 AM
Author: ilovethiswebsite
Hmmm. Well another fascinating breakthrough in psychology and genetic research is what''s called epigenetics. In other words, studies are showing that environment can actually CHANGE a person''s genetic makeup and the expression of genes. I think many people here are underestimating the role of environment in a child''s development... A child''s development is a lot more complicated than simply being born good or evil.

Who "many here", exactly, said that this was a simple matter? You must be reading a different thread than I was. The original question was, can a kid be horrible INNATELY? And some of us have answered yes. That does NOT translate to a simple explantion, or a discounting of nurture. What is does say is that some of us hold to the idea that there will be some rare kids who are only minimally and some flat-out NOT, amenable to nurture. To the degree that these children defy what we currently think we know about why humans develop as they do, the term "evil" can be applied. Consider it shorthand for a discussion that could take more time than we have in our lives.

Are you actually going to tell me that narcisstic personality disorder is "curable"? Or borderline? If a caregiver had only done "the right thing" at age 2? You''ll have to forgive me if I am doubtful. The six children in my mother''s household were raised in the same environment, but only one of them came out narcissistic. Are you telling me that because mom and dad didn''t provide the ''correct'' environment they created that monster? Again, doubtful. It''s amusing to me that evolutionary biology leans more and more towards the paradigm of "biology is destiny", finding a biological root for every behavior, and yet when we discuss something like child-rearing, well, the correct nurture should trump everything. I wonder if they''ve discovered the gene for intellectual inconsistency yet.

Child psychology is great and has much to tell us, but be careful of viewing the world exclusively through the lens of your chosen profession (I do recall correctly here, yes?) and thinking it holds the answers to all of our questions about why we are as we are. It does not. And it has been responsible for more angst and guilt among parents than probably any other area of knowledge. Especially among those with those problem children, who did everything the "experts" told them to, and still ended up with monsters. Life would indeed be great if we knew every angle before we started, but we don''t. Consider it the Hiesenberg Uncertainly Princle of Parenting. We are what we are because of a vastly complex interplay of nature and nuture. Most here would agree that nurture wins, but...not always.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I thought about this thread last night because as I was flipping through the channels, I saw "The Good Son" was on.

Logically, I would like to think that people are not born evil. That to be evil is to be the product of a bad environment or even a traumatizing event as a child that leads to issues with psychosis down the road.

However I truly feel that my aunt was born an evil person. My mother was about 10 years old when her sister was born and she said that even when my aunt was a baby, she seemed sinister. As a small child she would put pills in her family''s food or drink. When reprimanded, she would respond that she just wanted to see if anything bad happened. When she was 4 she locked my mother in the car on a hot summer day and told my mom she was trying to kill her (this was before child locks, so my mother got out). My mother said that she was terrified of her sister because she was so cold and had no ability to empathize. It was the look in my aunt''s face that scared her more than anything. As my aunt became an adult, she was diagnosed with many disorders--bipolar disorder, multiple personality disorder, depression, anxiety, etc. She did have a child who she abondoned in her house (he was later adopted by my grandmother). She may have been born with a chemical imbalance in her brain, but she has always been evil.

Sometimes I think about this and freak out about the thought of being the parent of a child like that.

 

[Hest88]

My mom had a home daycare for many years, so I grew up with lots of children running around and saw many of them grow up from being 2-3 month old babies to kindergarteners and beyond. Because of that, I firmly believe that the majority of one''s personality is due to nature, with nurture, certainly, being an influencer---but not as much as we would like to believe. It was amazing how early a kid''s personality manifested itself.

That why I think if two different people are exposed to the same traumatic event, one can be destroyed while the other can survive. It''s also why I believe some people will always be somewhat icky, while others will be warm and generous no matter what life throws at them. I think the term "evil" is rather misleading, because it implies some sort of a moral darkness corrupting the pure soul. Actually, I think it''s biological---in the genes---so that a person truly can do evil deeds without consciously thinking of them as evil. It''s like the way a cat thinks nothing of killing a mouse, only in person form.

I think it''s unfortunately when that happens, and I don''t think it''s the person''s fault--per se--to have "evil" genes, but--to use another animal analogy--it doesn''t help to pretend a rabid dog is a rabid dog, regardless of where the fault lies.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 4/30/2010 1:28:58 PM
Author: Hest88
My mom had a home daycare for many years, so I grew up with lots of children running around and saw many of them grow up from being 2-3 month old babies to kindergarteners and beyond. Because of that, I firmly believe that the majority of one''s personality is due to nature, with nurture, certainly, being an influencer---but not as much as we would like to believe. It was amazing how early a kid''s personality manifested itself.

I agree with a lot of this. I think you can look at a baby and know pretty well what his or her basic personality will be like. Good parenting can frame that personality into a productive citizen, but sometimes kids are just difficult beyond the powers of their parents to fix.


And NEL, that story gave me chills.

 

[partgypsy]

Although evil is a loaded term, I do feel most of personality is there at birth. As another poster said, if some people are born with good personalities, some can born with bad ones. Both my children, the essence of who they are, has been there from the start and you just see more and more of it. My older daughter, while not a saint (you should see her messy room!) has always been well mannered, conscientious, adult in her way of relating to the world. My younger daughter (and my husband when he was a boy) they can be stinkers (NOT the same as evil). Nursing her, she would bite me just to get a reaction, and then laugh! She likes to push boundaries. If the house is too quiet for 5 minutes we have to immediately search her out because you know she is creating a mess. And if you discipline her, she will do something afterwards just to show you she was not cowed. As her pediatrician said, she will grow up to be well adjusted but make for a difficult child! But she can also be incredibly caring and has the biggest heart, like if her sister looks sad try to give her a toy and hug her.


The cases like Jeffrey Dahmer are the scariest, because you feel that despite their upbringing something terrible went wrong. If you hear him talk about it, he knew what he was doing was wrong but still did it anyways/couldn''t help himself.

 

[princesss]

Date: 4/29/2010 9:54:05 AM
Author: somethingshiny
I think Evil is a purposeful choice to be destructive knowing that it''s wrong and fully understanding the consequences.

SomethingShiny, thank you for posting this definition. It''s the closest to how I feel about this.

Yes, I believe something can be "off" about a child early on, that there can be something genetic that makes them not think/feel the way most of us do. It can make them more likely to engage in behaviours we consider evil.

But evil, to me, is somebody that is fully capable of understanding and empathizing with what they are going to do to their victims (i.e. understands exactly what their victims will feel/think/fear) but decides to do it anyways.

But I haven''t had the experiences many of you have, and (to be honest) I hope I never do. Maybe my opinion would change if I was exposed to kids/people like some of the ones described here.

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

Date: 4/30/2010 10:34:44 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 4/30/2010 9:13:53 AM

Author: ilovethiswebsite

Hmmm. Well another fascinating breakthrough in psychology and genetic research is what's called epigenetics. In other words, studies are showing that environment can actually CHANGE a person's genetic makeup and the expression of genes. I think many people here are underestimating the role of environment in a child's development... A child's development is a lot more complicated than simply being born good or evil.

Who 'many here', exactly, said that this was a simple matter? You must be reading a different thread than I was. The original question was, can a kid be horrible INNATELY? And some of us have answered yes. That does NOT translate to a simple explantion, or a discounting of nurture. What is does say is that some of us hold to the idea that there will be some rare kids who are only minimally and some flat-out NOT, amenable to nurture. To the degree that these children defy what we currently think we know about why humans develop as they do, the term 'evil' can be applied. Consider it shorthand for a discussion that could take more time than we have in our lives.

Are you actually going to tell me that narcisstic personality disorder is 'curable'? Or borderline? If a caregiver had only done 'the right thing' at age 2? You'll have to forgive me if I am doubtful. The six children in my mother's household were raised in the same environment, but only one of them came out narcissistic. Are you telling me that because mom and dad didn't provide the 'correct' environment they created that monster? Again, doubtful. It's amusing to me that evolutionary biology leans more and more towards the paradigm of 'biology is destiny', finding a biological root for every behavior, and yet when we discuss something like child-rearing, well, the correct nurture should trump everything. I wonder if they've discovered the gene for intellectual inconsistency yet.

Child psychology is great and has much to tell us, but be careful of viewing the world exclusively through the lens of your chosen profession (I do recall correctly here, yes?) and thinking it holds the answers to all of our questions about why we are as we are. It does not. And it has been responsible for more angst and guilt among parents than probably any other area of knowledge. Especially among those with those problem children, who did everything the 'experts' told them to, and still ended up with monsters. Life would indeed be great if we knew every angle before we started, but we don't. Consider it the Hiesenberg Uncertainly Princle of Parenting. We are what we are because of a vastly complex interplay of nature and nuture. Most here would agree that nurture wins, but...not always.

Dear KSinger,

I am pretty sure I was reading the right thread… But thank you for making sure...

I am perfectly fine with you having a differing opinion than me, but your condescending and sarcastic reply was not needed nor did it help to make your argument. I was only stating the fact that saying that nature OR nurture explains a child’s development is a simplistic view. I obviously hit a nerve, but I think that instead of accusing me of seeing the world through my “professional lens” you may in fact have been viewing the world through your own experiences.

I am a huge proponent that there is always a dynamic interplay between the two. I never once said that NURTURE can cure a child who has some genetic predispositions, but much research in the area has shown that if can MODERATE the effects that genes play on development. This is not my opinion, but FACT.

Of course, a child may be born with certain tendencies that make them more difficulty to parent, but theoretically, it is possible for the environment to change the expression of their genes. Again, this is not my opinion, but FACT.

In terms of your sister being different than you and your siblings, I think you are mistaken if you believe that you all were exposed to exactly the same environment. Environment is more than just parenting, but also includes peer relationships, romantic relationships, school environment, and differential exposure to cultural and societal influences. Your sister may very well have been exposed to a different environment than you and your sisters. For example, if your sister has some genetic vulnerability to be narcissistic, then a mild stressor like a bad breakup may have triggered the expression of her gene.

If your point is that genetics can sometimes play a stronger influence, then by your same argument, you and your siblings should also be at high risk for mental illness considering you share approx. 50% of your genes with your sister (assuming she is your biological sister).

In terms of personality disorders in particular, although they do have a large heritability component, research (twin studies) has also shown that environment actually accounts for the most variance in the expression of genes in identical twins who share the same genes…

Lastly, behavioral genetics research has shown that it truly is a combination of genes and environment. Check out this site for example: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml

“With disorders, behaviors, or any physical trait, genes are just a part of the story, because a variety of genetic and environmental factors are involved in the development of any trait. Having a genetic variant doesn't necessarily mean that a particular trait will develop. The presence of certain genetic factors can enhance or repress other genetic factors. Genes are turned on and off, and other factors may be keeping a gene from being turned "on." In addition, the protein encoded by a gene can be modified in ways that can affect its ability to carry out its normal cellular function.”

To make a long story short, I am sorry if you have had negative experiences with “expert” psychologists in the past. But I really have no clue where you came up with the idea that our discipline believes that “nurture” cures all. Perhaps you have been watching too much pop psychology on TV (Dr. Phil?). On the contrary, my point was that it is always a combination of both genetic and environmental factors.

 

[lyra]

Date: 4/30/2010 5:01:01 PM
Author: ilovethiswebsite

Date: 4/30/2010 10:34:44 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 4/30/2010 9:13:53 AM

Author: ilovethiswebsite

Hmmm. Well another fascinating breakthrough in psychology and genetic research is what''s called epigenetics. In other words, studies are showing that environment can actually CHANGE a person''s genetic makeup and the expression of genes. I think many people here are underestimating the role of environment in a child''s development... A child''s development is a lot more complicated than simply being born good or evil.

Who ''many here'', exactly, said that this was a simple matter? You must be reading a different thread than I was. The original question was, can a kid be horrible INNATELY? And some of us have answered yes. That does NOT translate to a simple explantion, or a discounting of nurture. What is does say is that some of us hold to the idea that there will be some rare kids who are only minimally and some flat-out NOT, amenable to nurture. To the degree that these children defy what we currently think we know about why humans develop as they do, the term ''evil'' can be applied. Consider it shorthand for a discussion that could take more time than we have in our lives.

Are you actually going to tell me that narcisstic personality disorder is ''curable''? Or borderline? If a caregiver had only done ''the right thing'' at age 2? You''ll have to forgive me if I am doubtful. The six children in my mother''s household were raised in the same environment, but only one of them came out narcissistic. Are you telling me that because mom and dad didn''t provide the ''correct'' environment they created that monster? Again, doubtful. It''s amusing to me that evolutionary biology leans more and more towards the paradigm of ''biology is destiny'', finding a biological root for every behavior, and yet when we discuss something like child-rearing, well, the correct nurture should trump everything. I wonder if they''ve discovered the gene for intellectual inconsistency yet.

Child psychology is great and has much to tell us, but be careful of viewing the world exclusively through the lens of your chosen profession (I do recall correctly here, yes?) and thinking it holds the answers to all of our questions about why we are as we are. It does not. And it has been responsible for more angst and guilt among parents than probably any other area of knowledge. Especially among those with those problem children, who did everything the ''experts'' told them to, and still ended up with monsters. Life would indeed be great if we knew every angle before we started, but we don''t. Consider it the Hiesenberg Uncertainly Princle of Parenting. We are what we are because of a vastly complex interplay of nature and nuture. Most here would agree that nurture wins, but...not always.

Dear KSinger,

I am pretty sure I was reading the right thread… But thank you for making sure...

I am perfectly fine with you having a differing opinion than me, but your condescending and sarcastic reply was not needed nor did it help to make your argument. I was only stating the fact that saying that nature OR nurture explains a child’s development is a simplistic view. I obviously hit a nerve, but I think that instead of accusing me of seeing the world through my “professional lens” you may in fact have been viewing the world through your own experiences.

I am a huge proponent that there is always a dynamic interplay between the two. I never once said that NURTURE can cure a child who has some genetic predispositions, but much research in the area has shown that if can MODERATE the effects that genes play on development. This is not my opinion, but FACT.

Of course, a child may be born with certain tendencies that make them more difficulty to parent, but theoretically, it is possible for the environment to change the expression of their genes. Again, this is not my opinion, but FACT.

In terms of your sister being different than you and your siblings, I think you are mistaken if you believe that you all were exposed to exactly the same environment. Environment is more than just parenting, but also includes peer relationships, romantic relationships, school environment, and differential exposure to cultural and societal influences. Your sister may very well have been exposed to a different environment than you and your sisters. For example, if your sister has some genetic vulnerability to be narcissistic, then a mild stressor like a bad breakup may have triggered the expression of her gene.

If your point is that genetics can sometimes play a stronger influence, then by your same argument, you and your siblings should also be at high risk for mental illness considering you share approx. 50% of your genes with your sister (assuming she is your biological sister).

In terms of personality disorders in particular, although they do have a large heritability component, research (twin studies) has also shown that environment actually accounts for the most variance in the expression of genes in identical twins who share the same genes…

Lastly, behavioral genetics research has shown that it truly is a combination of genes and environment. Check out this site for example: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml

“With disorders, behaviors, or any physical trait, genes are just a part of the story, because a variety of genetic and environmental factors are involved in the development of any trait. Having a genetic variant doesn''t necessarily mean that a particular trait will develop. The presence of certain genetic factors can enhance or repress other genetic factors. Genes are turned on and off, and other factors may be keeping a gene from being turned ''on.'' In addition, the protein encoded by a gene can be modified in ways that can affect its ability to carry out its normal cellular function.”

To make a long story short, I am sorry if you have had negative experiences with “expert” psychologists in the past. But I really have no idea where you came up with the idea that our discipline believes that “nurture” cures all. Perhaps you have been watching too much pop psychology on TV (Dr. Phil?). On the contrary, my point was that it is always a combination of both genetic and environmental factors.

I think you''re writing about *my* sister, which is kind of funny to me. Here she is stirring up trouble again.

But seriously, I understand what you''re saying. My family has a long history of mental illness, and I have talked to a psychiatrist about all these issues. I know it''s not a simple thing, and that different genes can be switched "on" that make things worse. I don''t know what my sister''s trauma might have been, but I know it was there very early on, like before 7 years old. I can see how choices she made later on, like in her teens, just made her issues worse IMO. It all goes hand in hand though. It gets to be a chicken/egg thing too. Certainly we did not have a happy home all the time.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/30/2010 5:01:01 PM
Author: ilovethiswebsite

Date: 4/30/2010 10:34:44 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 4/30/2010 9:13:53 AM

Author: ilovethiswebsite

Hmmm. Well another fascinating breakthrough in psychology and genetic research is what''s called epigenetics. In other words, studies are showing that environment can actually CHANGE a person''s genetic makeup and the expression of genes. I think many people here are underestimating the role of environment in a child''s development... A child''s development is a lot more complicated than simply being born good or evil.

Who ''many here'', exactly, said that this was a simple matter? You must be reading a different thread than I was. The original question was, can a kid be horrible INNATELY? And some of us have answered yes. That does NOT translate to a simple explantion, or a discounting of nurture. What is does say is that some of us hold to the idea that there will be some rare kids who are only minimally and some flat-out NOT, amenable to nurture. To the degree that these children defy what we currently think we know about why humans develop as they do, the term ''evil'' can be applied. Consider it shorthand for a discussion that could take more time than we have in our lives.

Are you actually going to tell me that narcisstic personality disorder is ''curable''? Or borderline? If a caregiver had only done ''the right thing'' at age 2? You''ll have to forgive me if I am doubtful. The six children in my mother''s household were raised in the same environment, but only one of them came out narcissistic. Are you telling me that because mom and dad didn''t provide the ''correct'' environment they created that monster? Again, doubtful. It''s amusing to me that evolutionary biology leans more and more towards the paradigm of ''biology is destiny'', finding a biological root for every behavior, and yet when we discuss something like child-rearing, well, the correct nurture should trump everything. I wonder if they''ve discovered the gene for intellectual inconsistency yet.

Child psychology is great and has much to tell us, but be careful of viewing the world exclusively through the lens of your chosen profession (I do recall correctly here, yes?) and thinking it holds the answers to all of our questions about why we are as we are. It does not. And it has been responsible for more angst and guilt among parents than probably any other area of knowledge. Especially among those with those problem children, who did everything the ''experts'' told them to, and still ended up with monsters. Life would indeed be great if we knew every angle before we started, but we don''t. Consider it the Hiesenberg Uncertainly Princle of Parenting. We are what we are because of a vastly complex interplay of nature and nuture. Most here would agree that nurture wins, but...not always.

Dear KSinger,

I am pretty sure I was reading the right thread… But thank you for making sure...

I am perfectly fine with you having a differing opinion than me, but your condescending and sarcastic reply was not needed nor did it help to make your argument. I was only stating the fact that saying that nature OR nurture explains a child’s development is a simplistic view. I obviously hit a nerve, but I think that instead of accusing me of seeing the world through my “professional lens” you may in fact have been viewing the world through your own experiences.

I am a huge proponent that there is always a dynamic interplay between the two. I never once said that NURTURE can cure a child who has some genetic predispositions, but much research in the area has shown that if can MODERATE the effects that genes play on development. This is not my opinion, but FACT.

Of course, a child may be born with certain tendencies that make them more difficulty to parent, but theoretically, it is possible for the environment to change the expression of their genes. Again, this is not my opinion, but FACT.

In terms of your sister being different than you and your siblings, I think you are mistaken if you believe that you all were exposed to exactly the same environment. Environment is more than just parenting, but also includes peer relationships, romantic relationships, school environment, and differential exposure to cultural and societal influences. Your sister may very well have been exposed to a different environment than you and your sisters. For example, if your sister has some genetic vulnerability to be narcissistic, then a mild stressor like a bad breakup may have triggered the expression of her gene.

If your point is that genetics can sometimes play a stronger influence, then by your same argument, you and your siblings should also be at high risk for mental illness considering you share approx. 50% of your genes with your sister (assuming she is your biological sister).

In terms of personality disorders in particular, although they do have a large heritability component, research (twin studies) has also shown that environment actually accounts for the most variance in the expression of genes in identical twins who share the same genes…

Lastly, behavioral genetics research has shown that it truly is a combination of genes and environment. Check out this site for example: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml

“With disorders, behaviors, or any physical trait, genes are just a part of the story, because a variety of genetic and environmental factors are involved in the development of any trait. Having a genetic variant doesn''t necessarily mean that a particular trait will develop. The presence of certain genetic factors can enhance or repress other genetic factors. Genes are turned on and off, and other factors may be keeping a gene from being turned ''on.'' In addition, the protein encoded by a gene can be modified in ways that can affect its ability to carry out its normal cellular function.”

To make a long story short, I am sorry if you have had negative experiences with “expert” psychologists in the past. But I really have no clue where you came up with the idea that our discipline believes that “nurture” cures all. Perhaps you have been watching too much pop psychology on TV (Dr. Phil?). On the contrary, my point was that it is always a combination of both genetic and environmental factors.

I do apologize for the tone. I did not see that anyone here was underestimating nurture. Most people pretty desperately don''t want to believe that there are children beyond help. And maybe there aren''t, but as Hess pointed out, at some point, refusing to call a rabid dog a rabid dog, is pointless. I''d like to type more, but I''m off to dinner...maybe later.

For the record, while I may be at times too snarky, I do not watch Dr. Phil, I have no siblings - that was my mom''s family, not mine, and in spite of my husband saying I''m nuts several times a day, I do not to my knowledge, have any mental illness.