Do not read this if you are pregnant.

[JaneSmith]

I came across this article today and it made me think of the other thread about abortion, because within that thread the topic of how dangerous pregnancy and childbirth are came up.
I am in the health field and know all too well how quickly things can go south, and how taxing a low-risk pregnancy and delivery can be.
I remember feeling scared from time to time during my pregnancy, because I knew I had a very real risk of dying, even though I was low-risk and healthy.

Here is a quote from LaraOnline from the other thread:

Please note, I don't want to hijack this thread with other themes, but it does seem - very much - that the sheer regularity of pregnancy and childbirth means that humanity generally vastly under-appreciates the effort involved in labour and of course child rearing.
After my first labour, I really realised I had expected to die. (drug-free though, so felt everything). But...where was my gold badge lol?

I mean, it is common for women to have longer term health issues from their birthing experiences, many years after the child is born.
Yet the world just seems to expect this kind of crazy life-risking effort from women. With no pay, and no provision for their future.

Anyway, here is the link. http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/death_in_childbirth_doctors_increased_maternal_mortality_in_the_20th_century.single.html
Maybe we can shift the discussion of this aspect of the other thread here.

 

[dragonfly411]

There is a big part of me that wants to have a child and wants to be a mother and wants to experience it all, but things like this make me wonder. The other things that impart doubt on me are the loss of freedom to do the things I love doing. When would I do photography, ride horses, hunt, fish, go camping? Sigh.

 

[House Cat]

There is a big part of me that wants to have a child and wants to be a mother and wants to experience it all, but things like this make me wonder. The other things that impart doubt on me are the loss of freedom to do the things I love doing. When would I do photography, ride horses, hunt, fish, go camping? Sigh.

You just described all of the things I actually DO with my son.

 

[dragonfly411]

There is a big part of me that wants to have a child and wants to be a mother and wants to experience it all, but things like this make me wonder. The other things that impart doubt on me are the loss of freedom to do the things I love doing. When would I do photography, ride horses, hunt, fish, go camping? Sigh.

You just described all of the things I actually DO with my son.

Incredibly reassuring!!!

 

[qtiekiki]

There is a big part of me that wants to have a child and wants to be a mother and wants to experience it all, but things like this make me wonder. The other things that impart doubt on me are the loss of freedom to do the things I love doing. When would I do photography, ride horses, hunt, fish, go camping? Sigh.

You just described all of the things I actually DO with my son.

Was about to say that you can still do those things with kids. My 5 years old love taking pictures, so she uses my phone or DH's p&s and snap along with me. And other times, I find a lot of pictures on my phone taken by her. LOL.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

There is a big part of me that wants to have a child and wants to be a mother and wants to experience it all, but things like this make me wonder. The other things that impart doubt on me are the loss of freedom to do the things I love doing. When would I do photography, ride horses, hunt, fish, go camping? Sigh.

Yep, those are exactly the things you can do with kids. The best is giving your child(ren) their own cameras. My younger son's first camera was one of my old flip phones and he spent HOURS taking pictures using all the fun settings. I also gave my son a disposable camera and we had 24 pictures of things like bolts holding the playground equipment together. It's funny to see what they find fascinating.

Camping is great. Kids LOVE it! It's also inexpensive enough that it can be an annual summer tradition. We go somewhere significant every year now.

If you like to hike, that is a great hobby, too. Neither of my boys are into sports but LOVE hiking, camping, & swimming.

Another hobby that is WONDERFUL to share with kids is reading. You love reading, right? We have "read-ins," and we did one every day the summer before last, where we spent an hour each day sitting on the couch together reading. Kids see you reading and they pick up that hobby and it's one you can share regardless of age.

 

[movie zombie]

Jane, despite having had a miscarriage and then when pregnant a 2nd time having to spend a month in bed to avoid a 2nd miscarriage, it never crossed my mind that things could go wrong later.......which of course they did and to the point I can say that pregnancy was not the wonderful experience that I had hoped or read about, that the things that can go wrong are not covered adequately in classes or with the dr, and that my experience had me vowing "never again". I had my tubes tied one year later and have never regretted it.

 

[JaneSmith]

There is a big part of me that wants to have a child and wants to be a mother and wants to experience it all, but things like this make me wonder. The other things that impart doubt on me are the loss of freedom to do the things I love doing. When would I do photography, ride horses, hunt, fish, go camping? Sigh.

Honestly, if you have little to no help with the baby and toddler years, you can kiss a lot of freedom goodbye. But, once the baby starts having consistent long nighttime sleeps, you can do a lot of those things with bubs in tow. Sleep deprivation is a total energy killer.
Once the wee one is school aged, you can either do your things during school hours if you enjoy solitary time, or you can have an interested little buddy to share your hobbies with.
I'm lucky, my daughter so far loves all the same things I do! She has a little violin and we play together, she has her own little garden tools and she potters about in the garden with me, etc.

Pregnancy and birth is risky. Some of us have the standard discomforts, others have more serious complications. I was somewhere in the middle. I had hyperemesis and ended up in the hospital. Fortunately I live in a country where I was prescribed a safe antinauseant that I took for almost all the rest of the time. I also had such hyper mobile joints that I had crippling sciatica and couldn't work. Costochondritis (inflammation of the joints where the ribs meet the sternum) rounded out the experience.
Feeling that sweet baby grow and move made it bearable.

MoZo, I'm so sorry you had a miscarriage, that is a hard experience to go through, and then to have such a bad time with the second pregnancy. Did that one go to term?

 

[movie zombie]

yes, jane, full term but not a child birth experience i'd care to repeat.

 

[Rhea]

It is a worry. An acquaintance of mine spent at least a week in the hospital after giving birth even though the pregnancy had been easy until that time. I don't remember exactly what went wrong, but it was very serious. Another friend of the family had an easy pregnancy but after 2 days labour and no progressing ended up having a c-section, something which isn't as common over here as it is in the US. She's also had her fair share of difficulties in recovering.

I know that I'm considered to be a higher risk and that should I chose to have children the doctors would recommend a scheduled c-section. I suppose I'm lucky because this was found out ahead of time and can be planned for, but the recovery process after such an invasive surgery is daunting. It's scary. Something that is considered natural and quite ordinary has an incredible ability to go so wrong and jeopardise the life of the mother or child very quickly.

 

[LaraOnline]

Hi there ladies!
Jane, your title of the thread is interesting.... because it really feels that the 'details' of pregnancy and especially labour are a cultural secret, carefully kept!

Indeed, it struck me this week (as I make frantic preparations for my daughter's birthday party) that our culture constantly and deliberately under represents the work that mothers do... I mean, surely in a sane culture, birthdays would involve a 'thank you' or two, for the mums? Perhaps children should have a generic 'children's day', and mums should get the cake on birthdays... it was our effort, after all!

I hope you don't think I'm a grinch on this. I love my kids so much, and I love their birthdays. But.... I mean, when the weather changes I can still feel my scar lol. It was a scary and very painful time for me.So why aren't mothers represented on birthdays?

When I was in labour with my third, standing over a sink when the contraction came (I'd been vomiting quite badly), I heard the midwife say brightly to my husband: 'Oh, why don't you go down to the cafe? You could have a nice cup of coffee and a sandwich.' Then I realised...only I am connected to my own nervous system! No-one else can feel my pain *cue scary music here*. It's a very lonely feeling, and one that is very underdiscussed in natural labour, due to the possibility of pregnant women freaking out, I guess.

Although that is what got me through...the awareness that I was NOT alone, in that women have been experiencing this total-body ....experience... literally since we crawled out the slime. Would be great if we could evolve past birth pain, though.

When I recently read that post-natal depression may be linked to post traumatic stress disorder, my first response was: 'WHY?" As in, why did it take so long to work out that some women may have a stress disorder linked to the experience of their labour??

One day, perhaps the practice of accepting strong pain in childbirth will be seen as very primitive. Meantime, midwives in this country are doing everything possible to demonise intervention in labour at all, especially with regard to pain relief They see totally natural birth as better for the baby. Better for the mum? I'm not so sure.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Wow, we totally have choice here as far as pain relief during labor and childbirth is concerned. I am thankful for that!

As to the risks, there are few things worthwhile in life that do not have risks. With great risks can come great rewards.

 

[Circe]

I'm with you guys when it comes to wondering what gives with this cultural veil regarding the secrecy concerning childbirth's downsides ... not because it might scare women off the experience, but simply because it would be nice to have some warning when it comes to some of these things! For example, nobody told me about afterpains. All I knew was that a couple of days after labor, once I was home, I had this awful tearing pain in my midsection that was right up there with full-on, late-stage contractions. Apparently, this can happen when the uterus contracts, and it's not uncommon for it to be that bad. If I'd known, that would have been one thing, but for ten minutes or so there I was terrified I was having some hideous complication. Would have been nice to have seen that one on the horizon ....

Not to mention the general ... well, ignorance, for lack of a better word, that seems to be encouraged in the general population. We're bombarded with scare tactics about how if women ever put their education or their career ahead of childbearing (and I'm only speaking chronologically), then our withered ovaries will never bud healthy offspring. Woe betide the woman who waits until she's secure and in a place where she's comfortable undertaking the risks and feeling comfortable with her ability to provide for the kid, pay for childcare if necessary, etc., etc. On the other hand, it took them a damn year to figure out why I was miscarrying and three - three! - gynos completely failed to screen for blood clotting disorders. And, since while the dangers of nail polish and hair dye during pregnancy are commonly publicized - anything that could make a woman feel bad and shift the blame onto her shoulders - since nobody outside of pregnancy chatrooms ever seems to mention *that* sort of thing, I didn't even know the right questions to ask (and, believe me, I was haunting the chatrooms and just not stumbling across the right things). Absolutely infuriating.

I'm teaching an essay from the 70s today - Nancy Chodorow's "Family Structure and Mother-Daughter Relationships," in which she talks about how girls are socialized early on to have more fluid ego boundaries and to feel guilt whenever anybody in their vicinity has an unmet need. Good to see things have changed! Or ... not, as the case may be. Bah.

 

[LaraOnline]

I'm teaching an essay from the 70s today - Nancy Chodorow's "Family Structure and Mother-Daughter Relationships," in which she talks about how girls are socialized early on to have more fluid ego boundaries and to feel guilt whenever anybody in their vicinity has an unmet need. Good to see things have changed! Or ... not, as the case may be. Bah.

I'm not sure things have changed that much.
Of course, your opinions do change as your day-to-day experiences change, but for me, still down in the trenches with young kids, lower middle class (so no paid help or family to assist), I'm thinking that women learn 'fluid ego boundaries' from their mothers. Mothers are very strongly socialised to meet unmet needs! All that cleaning, feeding and timetable keeping - I mean let's face it, the job description is 'valet'.
Even girls must think girls are a little stupid to do all that fetching and carrying. I know I wondered about my own mother.

- and then after years of helping others and fetching and carrying when a woman gets older and grandchildren come on the horizon, surely that is the time to collect?! So...downplay the risk, up the reward to the prospective mum. Status (an important reason why we all go into motherhood, in my view) is consolidated with grandchildren, who offer a payoff in terms of lower risk, and higher reward.

Oops, forget the gender war, I've started a generation war lol sorry

 

[SB621]

I had a very hard and difficult pregnancy with my 1st. I had PG throughout and went into early labor at around 21 wks. They didn't think they could stop it. I had a deployed husband and I was all alone with a hospital staff worker giving me funeral options. Scarey is an understatment. To this day I still hold it against my husband a tiny bit because he jokes about it at times and to me it was extremely tramatic experience that I went through alone. I truly was never worried about my own health though now looking back I was also at risk as well due to the complications. I managed to hold out till 33 weeks + and gave birth to a very healthy baby, but had issues for months afterwards with pain (though no complications with labor). The pain increased much worse after my 2nd child. I remember thinking that labor was supposed to be hard, but to me it was being pregnant and then the aftermath of labor that was the real kicker. I still have hip and lower back pain from being pregnant.

With all that said, my babies were worth it. I'm not sure I would do it all over again though if I had lost my first. It would have been too much for me and we would never would have tried again. To add another layer to the discussion I'm also not close with my family so I never really understood what unconditional love was till I had children. I think if I grew up in a household where my mother was a "typical mom/wife/ housewife" it would have been something I had more interest in growing up vs. something I constantly questioned if that makes sense.

 

[rosetta]

As a doctor, I can tell you that the veil has certainly been pulled from my eyes.

Given any choice, I'd much rather have a baby with no childbirth involved. Unfortunately, that won't happen so I'm still deciding whether the risks are worth it. The jury is still out.

 

[Dandi]

I had a very hard and difficult pregnancy with my 1st. I had PG throughout and went into early labor at around 21 wks. They didn't think they could stop it. I had a deployed husband and I was all alone with a hospital staff worker giving me funeral options. Scarey is an understatment. To this day I still hold it against my husband a tiny bit because he jokes about it at times and to me it was extremely tramatic experience that I went through alone. I truly was never worried about my own health though now looking back I was also at risk as well due to the complications. I managed to hold out till 33 weeks + and gave birth to a very healthy baby, but had issues for months afterwards with pain (though no complications with labor). The pain increased much worse after my 2nd child. I remember thinking that labor was supposed to be hard, but to me it was being pregnant and then the aftermath of labor that was the real kicker. I still have hip and lower back pain from being pregnant.

With all that said, my babies were worth it. I'm not sure I would do it all over again though if I had lost my first. It would have been too much for me and we would never would have tried again. To add another layer to the discussion I'm also not close with my family so I never really understood what unconditional love was till I had children. I think if I grew up in a household where my mother was a "typical mom/wife/ housewife" it would have been something I had more interest in growing up vs. something I constantly questioned if that makes sense.

SB, reading this just breaks my heart. I am so, so sorry you had to go through that. What an amazing job you did, baking that baby another 12 weeks. You are truely remarkable, lady!

Being in the healthcare industry also, it kind of miffs me a bit about just how much emphasis is put on all-natural, intervention free childbirth. Each to their own of course, and if the individual mum has a plan for delivery and is able to stick to it, great stuff. If I hadn't had complications during my labour, I would have liked to go down the drug-free route too, and until he obstructed I was crusing along just fine - but I was prepared for whatever needed to be done to deliver my son safely. Just as well, 'cos I ended up having the works
But in reality, it is one, two or maybe three days? Maybe half a day or a few hours... in the whole scheme of things, it's a pretty minor amount of time to be so focused on, and pain relief at least can make it a much more pleasant and memorable experience for some women.

There doesn't seem to be enough preparation for the potential for pain afterwards, for the challenge that is breastfeeding, or the strain having a newborn can put on a relationship, or such has been the case in my experience. I realise that so many women look so forward to giving birth and are dead set on it being a certain type of experience, but in my field of work I feel that more discussion needs to be had with regards to the importance of keeping an open mind. I've had patients being rushed to theatre for an urgent c/s due to life-threatening complications (for mother and child) like a ruptured uterus or placental abruption, and howling about their current predicament because intervention of any kind wasn't in the birth plan. Often times, because there simply was little or no discussion about what needs to happen in a crisis, and more emphasis how to labour best to avoid drugs. Almost like it 'just won't happen to me'.

Here I go again, ramble ramble. Sorry folks My beef obviously isn't with mums and their wishes and hopes, more with societal expectations and lack of education on the bigger picture. I would like to think I could have a vaginal delivery with baby #2 one day, but it just is not realistic. And I am fine with that!

I'm with you Circe about the midsection afterpains, I had a lot of intervention to deliver my son and felt well prepared and informed, but no one let on about that old chestnut! Ouch!

 

[JaneSmith]

yes, jane, full term but not a child birth experience i'd care to repeat.

Oh good (the baby, not the birth)! I wasn't sure from your post if the baby made it.

LaraOnline, I titled the thread as I did because of the link to that article. I didn't want to upset any pregnant PSers, as some of the things discussed (eg. destructive deliveries) are rather graphic. Perhaps I should have just put a warning.

I'd certainly take a thank you and perhaps a small sparkly every child's birthday!

Diamondseeker, indeed, we must sometimes risk to obtain reward. Informed consent is the key.

Circe, the patriarchy grinds on.

SB, hugs to you. I don't quite understand when a spouse is so cavalier towards the other's feelings and experiences. It is a betrayal at the time compassion is most needed. Like LaraOnline when her hubby was accusing her of not wanting the baby she was losing.

I wonder if lack of spousal support contributes to the PTSD and post-natal depression so many women experience.

Rosetta, are there no good surrogacy options in your country?

DaniAndi, I wish everyone's birth plan went like this:
Goal: Healthy mum, healthy baby. Any necessary intervention acceptable. Painkillers are not the devil.

If people would just let go of the naturalistic fallacy and became a little more science literate, the world would be a better place.

 

[LaraOnline]

Jane, I hope you don't think I was at all critical of your thread title in fact, in some ways I think keeping the secrets of pregnancy works very well in terms of not worrying younger women so much.... the sheer 'not knowing', and the relentless emphasis on the positive also probably helped me through the majority of my own labour - well the first one anyway lol. After that it was more 'don't look back...pillar of salt' variety of mindthink heheh.

I read a few years ago that West Australian midwives were actually campaigning to make it illegal for women to request a cesarean section unless indicated as necessary by a doctor. The reason being that private health insurance patients were more likely to request one, and this was seen as somehow....immoral...? Unfair on the public health patients? Not sure. Also not sure whether that got up or not.

Fancy having the state force a woman to give birth vaginally! And yet, realistically, that pressure and pull between baby 'rights' and woman 'rights' is constantly examined in our modern society.

Jane, also interesting that you mentioned surrogacy, because that topic has not yet arisen in these conversations... ethic issues aside for now, I personally feel conflicted hearing that women overseas are earning as little as $3,000, or even local US girls are earning $15,000 for birthing a baby for someone else. Surely a figure like, say, $60,000 AFTER tax (figure plucked from the sky) and lifetime health insurance is a fairer wage? no doubt there would be huge variation in opinion on that lol. But maaaan, I can still feel my scars heheh. Seems crap that kind of risk and experience is worth only a few thousand bucks. Especially if the clients demand drug free birth lol.

 

[rosetta]

Since it came up, yes surrogacy would be an option that we could afford, but I'm not at all sure whether its the right thing to do. I'm fit and well, but pregnancy problems run in my family. My aunt had a stillbirth, other aunts lost many babies by miscarriage, some had gestational diabetes and jaundice in others. My mother had two miscarriages, plus hyperemesis with me. But that's not to say I can't have a perfectly fine pregnancy but it is frightening.

 

[Smith1942]

I haven't read all of this or even that much of it, since I feel I don't need any more worries right now. But I just wanted to say that it's important to keep things in perspective and remember that today, the majority of mothers have healthy babies and good outcomes.

 

[orbaya]

There is a big part of me that wants to have a child and wants to be a mother and wants to experience it all, but things like this make me wonder. The other things that impart doubt on me are the loss of freedom to do the things I love doing. When would I do photography, ride horses, hunt, fish, go camping? Sigh.

Yep, those are exactly the things you can do with kids. The best is giving your child(ren) their own cameras. My younger son's first camera was one of my old flip phones and he spent HOURS taking pictures using all the fun settings. I also gave my son a disposable camera and we had 24 pictures of things like bolts holding the playground equipment together. It's funny to see what they find fascinating.

Camping is great. Kids LOVE it! It's also inexpensive enough that it can be an annual summer tradition. We go somewhere significant every year now.

If you like to hike, that is a great hobby, too. Neither of my boys are into sports but LOVE hiking, camping, & swimming.

Another hobby that is WONDERFUL to share with kids is reading. You love reading, right? We have "read-ins," and we did one every day the summer before last, where we spent an hour each day sitting on the couch together reading. Kids see you reading and they pick up that hobby and it's one you can share regardless of age.

I totally agree with this! My son is 3 and we gave him an old Canon point and shoot that hadn't been used in years when he was 2. I love looking at the world as he sees it. I have a file on my laptop where I keep the photos that he has taken. They will be fun to look at someday. I absolutely love doing activities with my son because I get so much joy out of teaching and watching him, and being able to see things through a little child's view is awesome.