Do all rounds have a H&A pattern of some sort?

[Diamond916]

and...his H&A much preferred over one that isn''t?

 

[neatfreak]

No and most people do prefer H&A, but it isn''t a universal need for everyone...

 

[MichelleCarmen]

No, I have a few diamonds without any H&A at all. One is very pretty, but it''s not as impressive as my H&A stones.

 

[Diamond916]

so it seems that you are saying that H&A look much better?

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

ideal light performance with ideal face up symmetry should suffice to create essentially the same visual effect to the naked eye.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 9/30/2007 8:44:09 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
ideal light performance with ideal face up symmetry should suffice to create essentially the same visual effect to the naked eye.

I''m not sure what you''re saying but unless you have H&A, how can ideal light performance and "face up?" create H&A effects? Not bashing, just not understanding what you''re talking about. For example, old cuts dont really have H&A and theyt can have excellent light performance and cut (I dont understand what facing up has to do with the OP)...And not all RBs have H&A effects even though they are lovely. I thought in order to have H&A effect, the stone has to be cut to certain parameters...am I wrong?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have just posted an answer here to a similar question.
The 12th post.

 

[surfgirl]

Gary, I read your other post but it doesn''t exactly answer my question...can you be more specific? Thanks!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/30/2007 8:50:51 PM
Author: surfgirl

Date: 9/30/2007 8:44:09 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
ideal light performance with ideal face up symmetry should suffice to create essentially the same visual effect to the naked eye.

I''m not sure what you''re saying but unless you have H&A, how can ideal light performance and ''face up?'' create H&A effects? Not bashing, just not understanding what you''re talking about. For example, old cuts dont really have H&A and theyt can have excellent light performance and cut (I dont understand what facing up has to do with the OP)...And not all RBs have H&A effects even though they are lovely. I thought in order to have H&A effect, the stone has to be cut to certain parameters...am I wrong?

Sorry SG, I was answering the original question in that Tiffany thread - not yours.

1. H&A''s can have a very wide range of proportions - crown angles go from way under 30 to over 38 for e.g.
2. all stones with arrows thru a H&A''s viewer will show some arrows in certain types of lighting.
3. All stones that show dark arrows thru an Ideal-scope will also show arrows in certain lightings.
4. if the pattern is off by a teensy amount - there is no human on earth who can see it or notice the stone is less than perfect stars.

For instance in this example- which is a fair way off - I doubt anyone could see the difference.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

But here, the H&A''s are great, and the stone would show a star in many cases.
But the stone will look small and die when it is dirty.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 9/30/2007 8:50:51 PM
Author: surfgirl

Date: 9/30/2007 8:44:09 PM

Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

ideal light performance with ideal face up symmetry should suffice to create essentially the same visual effect to the naked eye.

I'm not sure what you're saying but unless you have H&A, how can ideal light performance and 'face up?' create H&A effects? Not bashing, just not understanding what you're talking about. For example, old cuts dont really have H&A and theyt can have excellent light performance and cut (I dont understand what facing up has to do with the OP)...And not all RBs have H&A effects even though they are lovely. I thought in order to have H&A effect, the stone has to be cut to certain parameters...am I wrong?

Well, what I meant was that while face down optical symmetry effects are one thing, noticeable visual impacts when viewing a set diamond face up with your naked eye is quite another (or for that matter even trying to see the difference using whatever type of scope on a face up diamond you wanted to use).

I understand that there is some relationship with increasing beauty and increasing perfection of hearts and arrows (assuming equivalent light performance), but as with all things I would venture that there must be some point at which the benefits simply are not apparent to our human eyes--particularly when the face up optical symmetry is so good that you can't even see a difference face up using a symmetry scope. Saying anything more than that would be little more than ignorant guesswork from me (some of which I will share in a moment), but maybe Gary will explain it satisfactorily where I obviously don't have the knowledge or resources to do what he can.

as for some perhaps somewhat uninformed statements:

I do suspect however, that there is some strong correlation between the requirements of AGS Ideal symmetry and the angles required to accompany that ideal symmetry with an Ideal cut grade.

And, while remember this is entirely my theory and one that I would be more than happy to revoke if someone could demonstrate the error of my thinking, and it is also based on very minimal evidence--some evidence, but very little:

I SUSPECT that seeing a visual difference face up between an AGS0 "near, or fairly good hearts and arrows" and a "True Hearts and Arrows" may well be similar to the face up difference and AGS0 High D and an AGS0 Low D.

like I said, that might not be correct, and I apologize if I am wrong, but rather than just saying if anyone out there is strongly opposed to my way of thinking I would say that while I can not really PROVE that particular statement there are several ways one could DISPROVE it if I am wrong, and I am more than welcome to having that done and learning some more myself.

EDIT: I was typing while Gary was posting, but since I typed it already I don't really want to go through and edit anything to adjust for what he has shared.

too lazy...

 

[door knob solitaire]

"But here, the H&A's are great, and the stone would show a star in many cases.
But the stone will look small and die when it is dirty."

Garry...

When you said it would DIE when dirty...is that specifically because of the H&A pattern? Let me rephrase that...do you mean that an H&A has too be clean to display the light show? And that when IT is dirty it is a dud?

DKS

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 9/30/2007 9:47:21 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
'But here, the H&A's are great, and the stone would show a star in many cases.

But the stone will look small and die when it is dirty.'



Gary...


When you said it would DIE when dirty...is that specifacally because of the H&A pattern? Let me rephrase that...do you mean that an H&A has too be clean to display the light show? And that when IT is dirty it is a dud?


DKS

I think he was saying that because the IS shows alot of leakage around the girdle and in the center. Hard to tell in such a small picture but if you look closely it looks to me like there is a lot of leakage in that stone. Just have to wait and see what he says!

but, I posted because I wanted to ask you a question. This is not to be critical at all, as I am not sure I or for that matter Gary, is really spot on, but what differences would YOU expect to see with your naked eye, between two ideal performance diamonds, one with good but not great hearts and super-great ideal arrows, the other with both SUPER GREAT ideal hearts and arrows?

If you know of some visual difference I would love to learn bout it, I am really confused as to what difference people are expecting to see between those two with their naked eye face up? A lot of people say there are some, so I am really curious, no offense meant at all, and I am more than willing and ready to admit when I have been wrong, especially about diamonds to which I am so new in learning about!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/30/2007 9:47:21 PM
Author: door knob solitaire
''But here, the H&A''s are great, and the stone would show a star in many cases.
But the stone will look small and die when it is dirty.''

Garry...

When you said it would DIE when dirty...is that specifically because of the H&A pattern? Let me rephrase that...do you mean that an H&A has too be clean to display the light show? And that when IT is dirty it is a dud?

DKS

When dirty a 1ct stone like that would appear the size of a 0.80ct because of what WH4SR''s said.

What I am saying is that H&A''s is a mind thing, not a sparkle thing.

Too many people consider it as some sort of supa doopa quality guarantee. H&A''s guarantees H&A''s End.

H&A''s has to be seen to be graded. Just reading it on the girdle or on a GIA report means diddly squat. There are really no grading standards for H&A''s outside of Japan. Just as I do not say this Ideal-scope image is 97.3%

 

[gontama]

Date: 9/30/2007 9:26:32 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/30/2007 8:50:51 PM
Author: surfgirl

Date: 9/30/2007 8:44:09 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
ideal light performance with ideal face up symmetry should suffice to create essentially the same visual effect to the naked eye.

I''m not sure what you''re saying but unless you have H&A, how can ideal light performance and ''face up?'' create H&A effects? Not bashing, just not understanding what you''re talking about. For example, old cuts dont really have H&A and theyt can have excellent light performance and cut (I dont understand what facing up has to do with the OP)...And not all RBs have H&A effects even though they are lovely. I thought in order to have H&A effect, the stone has to be cut to certain parameters...am I wrong?

Sorry SG, I was answering the original question in that Tiffany thread - not yours.

1. H&A''s can have a very wide range of proportions - crown angles go from way under 30 to over 38 for e.g.
2. all stones with arrows thru a H&A''s viewer will show some arrows in certain types of lighting.
3. All stones that show dark arrows thru an Ideal-scope will also show arrows in certain lightings.
4. if the pattern is off by a teensy amount - there is no human on earth who can see it or notice the stone is less than perfect stars.

For instance in this example- which is a fair way off - I doubt anyone could see the difference.

If the photos are an example of the arrow pattern that is off by "teensy amount", I tend to think it can be seen by many who are consious about the symmetry when compared against the highly symmetric stone side by side. When shopping, we brought a near H&A to a local store and compared it against other near H&As and H&As. While I was thinking about which one returns the most light, my wife picked up a LK because of the nice arrow pattern visible to the naked eye (it was the only one that got max on isee2 by the way). That particular LK is really well cut and exphibits a very clean & nice arrow pattern. Others are also well cut and when viewed through H&A viewers, they looked much better than the attached photos, though not as crisp as that of LK. It was not until I was told so by my wife that I realized H&A thing does exist, and that has made me look only for H&A. Technically, a H&A (or highly symmetric stone) could come with any c/p combo just for the purpose of symmetry. But I think it is unlikely that such a carefully crafted diamond has a ridicuous c/p combo. I do not mean to say H&A is superior to non H&A, but I just do not think people not see the difference.

 

[gontama]

Date: 9/30/2007 9:28:50 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
But here, the H&A''s are great, and the stone would show a star in many cases.
But the stone will look small and die when it is dirty.

Agreed. But if this dug out stone has much less symmetry, would not it look even worse?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/1/2007 5:44:18 AM
Author: gontama

But I think it is unlikely that such a carefully crafted diamond has a ridicuous c/p combo. I do not mean to say H&A is superior to non H&A, but I just do not think people not see the difference.

Your opinion could be described as rather naive Gontama.

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=6269307&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps the 63.4% depth and small spread - 6.25 x 6.28 x 3.97 mm of this 1ct stone is clearly an issue, yet it is a claimed H&A''s.

And here is a similar GIA example. http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=7344390&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

 

[gontama]

Date: 10/1/2007 6:32:38 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/1/2007 5:44:18 AM
Author: gontama

But I think it is unlikely that such a carefully crafted diamond has a ridicuous c/p combo. I do not mean to say H&A is superior to non H&A, but I just do not think people not see the difference.

Your opinion could be described as rather naive Gontama.

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=6269307&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps the 63.4% depth and small spread - 6.25 x 6.28 x 3.97 mm of this 1ct stone is clearly an issue, yet it is a claimed H&A''s.

And here is a similar GIA example. http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=7344390&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

The 1st one is graded by EGLISR. The 2nd one says the diamond is just nscribed H&A.
Do you think they have a very nice H&A pattern like those offered by top vendors here?
If they do, I understand H&A "can" be used just for marketing with no real value.
Do they try to offset the cost to make H&A by making the diamond so deep?
Gary, sorry I did not klnow such a practice exists.
I still think nice H&A is only a plus unless a very bad c/p is intentionally chosen to retain weight.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/1/2007 6:43:51 AM
Author: gontama

Date: 10/1/2007 6:32:38 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/1/2007 5:44:18 AM
Author: gontama

But I think it is unlikely that such a carefully crafted diamond has a ridicuous c/p combo. I do not mean to say H&A is superior to non H&A, but I just do not think people not see the difference.

Your opinion could be described as rather naive Gontama.

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=6269307&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps the 63.4% depth and small spread - 6.25 x 6.28 x 3.97 mm of this 1ct stone is clearly an issue, yet it is a claimed H&A''s.

And here is a similar GIA example. http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=7344390&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

The 1st one is graded by EGLISR. The 2nd one says the diamond is just nscribed H&A.
Do you think they have a very nice H&A pattern like those offered by top vendors here?
If they do, I understand H&A ''can'' be used just for marketing with no real value.
Do they try to offset the cost to make H&A by making the diamond so deep?
Gary, sorry I did not klnow such a practice exists.
I still think nice H&A is only a plus unless a very bad c/p is intentionally chosen to retain weight.

Of course I can be sceptical they have very good H&A''s patterns. But please do not assume such practices do not exist. Buyers beware.

The vendors here are subject to the ultimate transperency and review on this and other open platforms. They behave very differently to much of the trade - many of who could not give a tinkers cuss for H&A''s or diamonds or anything else other than surviving to pay the bankers for the next months interest payment. Take a walk down 47th street some time.

 

[gontama]

Date: 10/1/2007 7:04:25 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/1/2007 6:43:51 AM
Author: gontama

Date: 10/1/2007 6:32:38 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/1/2007 5:44:18 AM
Author: gontama

But I think it is unlikely that such a carefully crafted diamond has a ridicuous c/p combo. I do not mean to say H&A is superior to non H&A, but I just do not think people not see the difference.

Your opinion could be described as rather naive Gontama.

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=6269307&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps the 63.4% depth and small spread - 6.25 x 6.28 x 3.97 mm of this 1ct stone is clearly an issue, yet it is a claimed H&A''s.

And here is a similar GIA example. http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=7344390&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

The 1st one is graded by EGLISR. The 2nd one says the diamond is just nscribed H&A.
Do you think they have a very nice H&A pattern like those offered by top vendors here?
If they do, I understand H&A ''can'' be used just for marketing with no real value.
Do they try to offset the cost to make H&A by making the diamond so deep?
Gary, sorry I did not klnow such a practice exists.
I still think nice H&A is only a plus unless a very bad c/p is intentionally chosen to retain weight.

Of course I can be sceptical they have very good H&A''s patterns. But please do not assume such practices do not exist. Buyers beware.

The vendors here are subject to the ultimate transperency and review on this and other open platforms. They behave very differently to much of the trade - many of who could not give a tinkers cuss for H&A''s or diamonds or anything else other than surviving to pay the bankers for the next months interest payment. Take a walk down 47th street some time.

If your warning is meant for consumers trying to purchase a diamond elsewhere, makes sense. They should bring not only H&A viewer but also IS ...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/1/2007 7:22:21 AM
Author: gontama

If your warning is meant for consumers trying to purchase a diamond elsewhere, makes sense. They should bring not only H&A viewer but also IS ...

Sounds like a good plan