Home Disciplining children: questions

[Tacori E-ring]

fiery, I would not use something she sleeps in either for time-outs. Don't want negative associations.

TGal, the book is big on warnings (hopefully she will stop the bad behavior herself) but he also said you can just say "that's three, take three" for serious offenses.

 

[TravelingGal]

Fiery, I an advocate of NOT using the PackNPlay or the crib for a time out spot. I choose a spot that is ONLY for time outs, so it is clear that it is a not happy place (I also didn't want her to freak out every time I put her in the crib if I chose to use that for time out).

The cage was formed by using three panels of a SuperYard XT. Big enough to sit down, but not much bigger than that. Tacori used a spot behind the couch I believe. Boring and nothing to see back there and Tessa hated it.

ETA, Tacori beat me to it.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I still remember seeing the top of T's head bobbing up and down. She would try to jump to see what was going on but she was a shortie. I know I should laugh but it was pretty funny. Besides she never HEARD me laugh It is a big corner, big enough for her to lay down not that she would.

 

[Shoopy]

LOL Tacori, I'd probably laugh too. I haven't perfected the hidden laugh AT ALL. The good thing about her though is that she does get easily distracted if it's something she's interested in. It just feels weird to "discipline" her by pointing her in the direction of her toys, kwim?

 

[Tacori E-ring]

You don't have a corner, laundry room, hey, maybe the bathroom with a gate in the doorway. There has to be some place you can use.

It was funny b/c I could only see the top of her head and some forehead. She HATED our cage. She also hates the time-out chair but she knows to sit in it. But T is much older than S. Probably naughtier too Now IS the time to research IMHO so you will know what to do when the time comes.

 

[TravelingGal]

Tacori, I totally remember when you posted about her head bobbing up and down and I laughed then. It's still funny to me now.

Fiery, I totally see that it would feel funny too. Which is why I say get to her BEFORE she gets to the DVDs. It will be discipline enough that she won't be able to get to her destination and you'll get protests for sure.

 

[Sabine]

Great thread Fiery...I think we're at the same stage as you...and Jacks is into EVERYTHING!

Mind if I add a question for the btdt moms? A lot of the times that Jacks gets into stuff that he knows he shouldn't (the dog's water, computer cords, etc.) it's when i'm trying to get something done and not playing with him. If I'm on the floor with him, he rarely goes for something that isn't a toy. So I'm guessing that him going for these off-limits things has something to do with him wanting mommy's attention. First, do you think at this age (1), he's able to comprehend, hey, if I do something wrong, mommy will pay attention to me?

And second, if so, what do I do? I usually try telling him eh eh eh, not for Jackson while wagging my finger, and if he doesn't listen I physically move him, and redirect him. But me redirecting him usually involves me getting a toy and playing a bit with him. So I worry that this is actually reinforcing the negative behavior...'hey, if I touch something I'm not supposed to, mommy will stop what she's doing and play with me.' Am I way overthinking this? Thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Mara]

Got it. Also Fiery what you said re: attention span makes sense aka if you put her in the corner she may realize don't touch DVD's or I end up here but for how long? I would imagine a few hours later she might have forgotten that. I wonder at what age memory starts to stick.

Oh and the CIO ... it is more the association of 'I cry and cry. People come. I like being with people. Therefore I cry til people come and I am happy'....that is why I think they say for REAL CIO you should never go back in because otherwise you keep teaching that the longer they cry and the more persistent they are, the more you respond. And not all kids get exhausted and pass out!

I understand redirection because we did that with Portia during her training. She's chewing on something she shouldn't, you take it away and replace it with something she can chew on--it also shows her what she CAN have and what she CAN'T. I imagine it's similar.

re: putting them in a 'cage' area...Tacori when you said 'laundry room' or some other place it made me think of when parents used to put their kids into a closet for time outs and how much negative association that has nowadays (omg you got put in a closet or a basement?!?!?)... I guess if the light is on it's ok?!?!?!

 

[Upgradable]

You may want to explore the Parenting With Love and Logic books. I don't know if the age is right yet, but they're the best workable strategies I've seen. http://www.loveandlogic.com/

 

[TravelingGal]

Mara, I think part of why time outs are effective for Amelia is that she wants my attention. Therefore I prefer to have her in a place where she can see me. I just go about my business and ignore her for a couple of minutes. Basically mommy doesn't want to hang out with you if you behave like that. I've never been locked in a closet or in a basement, but I don't want her to be scared in time out. I just want her to understand it's exactly what it's supposed to be...time to sit and do nothing, with no one playing with you.

Sabine, that sounds complicated! Don't have any solid advice for you, but maybe the folks with more of a psych foundation can help you.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Mara, I would use the bathroom but put a gate instead of closing them in. I don't think CPS would haul me away for that. Actually one of my friends uses her laundry room with a gate. I would NEVER use a closed closet but hey, if you have a walk-in put a gate in the door. Why not? Of course make sure the kid can't get into trouble b/c it is better for the parent and child not to see each other during the time-out. The corner behind our sectional was perfect. Like I said it was a pretty large triangle of space and kept her contained and safe. Now her time-outs are in the open with a chair. I know Burk uses the bottom stair. That works too once they know they HAVE to stay there. The book I mentioned likes using their rooms which I think is a great idea for older kids.

Uppy, I have heard great things about that book. That may be my next read.

Sabine, how old is your son again?

 

[Puppmom]

It's so hard when they're cute! It sounds like you're doing the right thing by redirecting her.

I don't know if 1 is too early for timeout but, my best guess is, that you would probably just end up really frustrated because she might not *get it*. I think a better solution since Sophia is in the grabby stage (why oh why do they have to touch EVERYTHING?) is to keep everything you can out of her reach that you don't want her touching.

Sorry, no book recommendations - we're still on the Happiest Baby on the Block.

Wait, Pupp, isn't your kid a teenager??

She sure is! But, I had her when I was a teenager so I wasn't reading any parenting books. After all, teenagers already KNOW EVERYTHING. Luckily, she was about the most laid back toddler on the planet. When I said "No", she just listened. Crazy!

 

[Sabine]

Tacori, he'll be one at the end of the month. That's why I question whether I'm reading too much into it. I'll be checking out these books on toddler behavior and discipline as well!

Mara, I know time-out wouldn't work for Jacks at this age. He wouldn't understand being put ANYWHERE as a negative thing at this point really, he'd just be like, OH somewhere else to explore! If I gated him in the bathroom he'd pull up and cruise along the tub, toilet, etc., try to get in them if they aren't babyproofed, etc. If I put him in the corner he'd bang on the wall and be amused by the sound it makes, etc. Maybe if I had a playyard that I could form a little box out of with nothing in it, but I still think he'd be looking up at the ceiling, shadows, etc. But I could be wrong, I'm just not ready to try it with him yet.

Puppmom, lucky you for a kid who listened to and understood 'no'!

 

[Blenheim]

Re: timeouts - All of the daycare providers that we interviewed said that they will not use time-outs until approx age 2, as prior to then the kids can't understand why they're in the time out. If G tries to splash in the dogs' bowl and we say "Not for George" and remove him from the situation, he learns if he splashes in the water then it goes away. But I think that a timeout is removed enough from the actual splashing (or whatever he's doing; I wouldn't use a timeout for splashing) that he wouldn't "get" it. He's just 15 months though, and it seems like sometime in the 18-20 month range there's a huge leap in the amount of kids' comprehension.

At TGal's suggestion, I read the "How to Make Children Mind Without Losing Yours" book, and it had a lot of good information in it. I think that most of it's targeted towards slightly older kids, but it was still good for me to think ahead some. I think I'll also look into the book that Tacori mentioned above - thanks for the recommendation!

We're mostly just setting appropriate boundaries and using redirection right now, but two books that I've found helpful for preventing tantrums from starting are "How to Talk So That Children Will Listen, and Listen So That Children Will Talk" and "The No Cry Discipline Solution". I've implemented some of the suggestions in there that I would have sworn weren't age appropriate, but they're actually working! G's been regularly throwing tantrums when getting dressed in the mornings, and about a week ago I started letting him choose between 2 outfits, and now he will choose which he wants to wear and then happily let me put it on him. He had also been throwing major tantrums at getting in and out of the bathtub. One of the books said that bathtub tantrums are often about transitions and suggested giving a 5 minutes-3 minutes-1 minute warning before getting out. I've been doing 3 minutes-1 minute, and while I feel like that the concept of time is probably a bit beyond him, he does a lot better getting out of the bathtub when he has that warning as he knows it's coming up and so it's not a shock.

Sabine - G will go for the "bad" stuff when we're distracted by other things, but I don't think it's to get our attention. I think it's more like, "Hey, if I splash in the dogs' water when Mama's watching she'll make me stop, so let's see if I can get away with it when she's not watching! Woohoo water!!" So if I can't adequately supervise, I try to remove the situation (put the dogs' bowl on the counter, use a baby gate to block off the area, etc) so that he learns that he can't play with dogs' bowl, no matter what.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Sabine, one of my Professors would say he is getting EXACTLY what he wants (your attention). I think kids learn to manipulate way before their first birthday. Until they understand the concept of cause and effect it is kinda a lose-lose situation. I remember the frustration. Once he is 18 months I would find a safe, contained place. Look into TGal's cage.

Blen, choices DO help for sure! That is why I even give her a choice of how she wants to GET to her time-out chair

 

[ZestfullyBling]

I believe our children even as babies are so INTELLIGENT! They Hear us, they Respond to our tones, They See us, and Communicate with us.

And YES they are the cutest most adorable little persons! And they smell so marvelous! I miss my little toddler!

As a baby and toddler DH and I started disciplining our son with our Tone of voice, then at maybe 1-3 years we'd add a little tap to the hand or thigh with that tone of voice, or firm ""no".

For instance, at about 24 months or so he bit me on the cheek (I didn't know if he was playing or serious), I said no biting and bit him back on the arm ( you know, the little meaty part of the arm babies have). I didn't bite him hard, there was barely any teeth marks, just enough for him to know how biting feels. He cried, but he never bit anyone again after that.

We practice treat othes the way you want to be treated. If baby pulled my hair I'd pull his, say no pulling hair and he'd cry. Once he knew how it felt (that it hurt or wasn't pleasant) he didn't do it again.

You are right! babies are strong, but you are too. We have to teach our babies, toddlers, and so on...how to respect authority, listen, and respect other people and there belongings. Especially Mommie and Daddie's stuff. It starts at home.

But I'm no expert...I'm just a parent.

 

[ChinaCat]

Following this thread with interest as well.

O's response when I head him off and say "Not for Oliver"? He thinks its hysterical, laughs, and keeps trying to do it, all the while turning to look at me and "wait" for me to say "Not for Oliver". Don't know if it's my tone or the finger wag, but it most definitely doesn't scare him. Maybe you're right, Sabine, and it's an attention thing.

At 11 months he definitely would not know what the time out is for.

I just keep saying it, and keep redirecting him. Eventually he'll figure it out. Hopefully.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I laugh all the time. Because it gets funnier and funnier. Oh the ANGST they feel at 2! But I've gotten good at hiding it too. Just a twitch in the mouth for me now.

Just based on what you said here, two things:

1) Do a better job of getting her attention. I made Amelia jump when I used to call her name. She noticed. Could be that your kid is just really good at ignoring, but if you aren't already, REALLY make a point of punctuating her name.

2) Babies can't win - but sometimes it takes more time to get them to give up. You say she goes back to what she's doing. Pick her up and move her. And if she even INCHES in that direction again, pick her up and say no. Over, and over, and over again. She WILL give up at some point. But you have to be quick and consistent with not letting her go back to the undesired spot.

She can try all she wants, and be strong all she wants, but you are stronger. I know it's hard to keep an eye on your kid all the time, but try so she can't even make it to the DVDs. When she heads there, say "Sophia! No, not for Sophia!" and grab her. Half the battle is getting her to understand that it's futile to even TRY to get to the DVDs.

I didn't use time outs with Amelia until she was 20 months.

As usual, Ditto all of this. I think TGal and I are similar parents in many ways

Hunter is JUST like Sophia Fiery. It is normal for them not to listen! At 12 months they have NO attention span, and little short and long term memory. It takes a million repetitions for them to learn something and even then they cannot generalize -- oh, so don't touch THEN also means don't tought NOW? WHo knew??

At 12 months old, you have to be very physical in guiding your child and enforcing the rules -- phsycial as in physically redirect. Some kids will pick up the rules after 20 repetitions. Other kids, you should just move the CDs somewhere else A little reorganization in the home can be a good thing. Temperaments vary so much, and Sophia sounds like Hunter -- a crazy maniac monkey who is in to everything! You need the patience of a saint with a kid like that, and the stubborness of a bull to keep at it forever and ever. I saw this frist hand when I had a play date the other day. The little girl sat on her moms lap for like an hour and Hunter ran around, climbed on things, ran some more, climbed in my lap, climbed out... and on and on. Accept your child's personality, do what you can to enforce the rules, but also structure your environment to make life easier on you if you have a persistent and pig headed kid like I do!

The BIGGEST pitfall I see with parents is that they expect more from their kids than is reasonable and it leads to frustration and disappointment and anger. Understanding developmental norms will save you a world of grief.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I've read on different sites that 18 months is when you start doing time out because that's when they understand it. If I sat Sophia in a corner, I don't think she would understand.

Yeah, I agree. I started using timeout when Amelia could at least understand what she was doing wrong and tell me why she was in time out. In the beginning, timeout resulted for only two things: Hitting and throwing. She knew what those two words were. So when I asked her after her time in time out was over, "Why Amelia in timeout?" She would say "No throw" or "No hit." It was very effective, and I'm glad I didn't use it until I felt she could grasp the concept. It's been very highly effective and now even the threat of time out sets her straight.

Up until then, I know I did a lot in the "discipline" area, but all that really encompassed was saying something and meaning it. I never, ever let her win when I decided to pick the battle. Not once. I swear, that, more than anything has gone a long way into making the two's a lot easier. In the earlier days, I think the best thing you can do is teaching your kid that when mommy says something, she absolutely means it. NO EXCEPTIONS.

It's exhausting though, for sure...but the payoff is later! Because I'd hate to be teaching her that NOW when her stubborn streak and will are a LOT stronger.

Again, I agree completely. Time outs only work with older kids. Now, the lesson is for YOU to follow through. If you say "Don't do that" and the kid doesn't listen, then you need to get off your butt and stop them from doing it! Pick those battles, because if you are over controlling it gets tiring mighty fast

If you say it, then make it happen. Rules to live by in our house.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Mara, thanks for your post. This is clearly the line my mind takes on the subject as well. Kids do have some knowledge of cause and effect and consequences at a young age, so why would it not extend to this situation.

They do, but it has to be rather immediate and the outcome has to be logically linked to what they did. Touch the hot stove PAIN so I won't touch it anymore. With time outs, it is too complex for a child under a certain age -- the age probably depends on the kid but I wager it is between 18mo and 24mo.

In fact when we sleep train kids are not learning "If I cry mom comes". We anthropomorphize by thinking they have this level of cognition. What is actually going on is extinction of a primal, biologically based behaviour (at a young age) and learning self-soothing out of desperation (at an older age)! This is very different than understanding cause and effect as complex as "If mama tells me NO, and I do not listen then she will put me in this chair and then I have to stay there".

More likely a 12 months old would be thinking "DVDs yah! Yah... What is mama saying she sure is noisy! Whoa why am I over here?? I want my DVDs! Waaaahhh! Oh, look at that what's that new thing over there... I'm gonna get it" Not a very successful learning experience.

 

[Shoopy]

Thank you all so much for all of the advice

DD-The visual of Hunter on the playdate really made me giggle. Sophia is exactly like that, and she cannot walk yet so I'm guessing it's just going to get more challenging At the birthday party I mentioned here, while all of the kids were crawling around in the play area she was trying to crawl everywhere else

 

[Dreamer_D]

Sabine - G will go for the "bad" stuff when we're distracted by other things, but I don't think it's to get our attention. I think it's more like, "Hey, if I splash in the dogs' water when Mama's watching she'll make me stop, so let's see if I can get away with it when she's not watching! Woohoo water!!" So if I can't adequately supervise, I try to remove the situation (put the dogs' bowl on the counter, use a baby gate to block off the area, etc) so that he learns that he can't play with dogs' bowl, no matter what.

Yes. Hunter goes for the toilet or the dog dish whenever he can and we remove the dog dish/close the bathroom doors when we cannot personally redirct.

I also have learned a lot from my daycare They have theories of parenting there and all have early childhood education degrees so they know more than me. In the infant room (12 - 18 mo) they just redirect and structure the environment so that there is less temptation. And repeat repeat repeat. No anger, no yelling, just infinite patience. Somehow.

Fiery He is realy a handful. My number one approach is to get the heck out of the house for all his waking hours! He needs fun and activity or he gets destructive around the house. So we basically go out all the time. He is also the one who steals toys, hits other kids, and pushes them off toys when he wants them. He is enthusiastic and approach motivated . When he does those things I am there immediately getting down to his level and saying "We do not hit our friends!" and holding his hand away or if he steals a toy, I tell him "Claire was playing with that, it is for Claire" and give the toy to CLaire, then give him another toy. When he hits us or the dog we say, "Ouch, that hurts mama! Be gentle, mama likes gentle touches" and we will then hold his hand and show him how to gently stroke our face or chest instread of smacking it, grabbing it, pinching and generally mauling us I don't think he gets much of it yet, but it is laying the groundwork.

The flip side is that he is charming and cute and lovable and everyone adores him when we go out! Lest I paint too evil a picture

 

[Pandora II]

As the mother of an extremely naughty little girl who takes huge pleasure in winding me up, has boundless energy and bad separation anxiety I am a big fan of Dr Sear's 'The Good Behaviour Book'.

As much as anything it helps me learn to control myself and not yell at her!

DH is always wanting to put her in her crib for timeouts, but I absolutely don't want her associating it with anything bad. She still sleeps with us, but I have put her in it twice now for the part of the evening before we go to bed and during the day she'll sit and read books in it. The side comes off so she can climb in and out on her own.

Also, at this age, after 10 minutes they can't remember why they are even there.

Daisy will sit and read books by herself but otherwise she needs my attention all the time if we are at home - we now go out A LOT!

 

[Mara]

"Dreamer Wrote:

In fact when we sleep train kids are not learning "If I cry mom comes". We anthropomorphize by thinking they have this level of cognition. What is actually going on is extinction of a primal, biologically based behaviour (at a young age) and learning self-soothing out of desperation (at an older age)! This is very different than understanding cause and effect as complex as "If mama tells me NO, and I do not listen then she will put me in this chair and then I have to stay there"."

____

Dreamer, I am glad you chimed in since you have some background with this kid-brain stuff. I find this part of what you wrote interesting but I don't totally get it (sorry, at-work Mommy brain with not enough coffee in full effect !)...

So when we sleep train kids by not doing CIO properly and going in after they are crying for say 10 min...what does that teach them? That is what I meant by the first line... aka I cry, Mommy comes and I am happy. Therefore, I keep crying and I end up happy. So is that not the case in their primal brain? If so, what would they be learning?