Difference between Brian Gavin diamond and Whiteflash.

[Dancing Fire]

From memory, ACA’s only just have the AGS report number inscribed on it, not any other branding (like the logos that BGD get laser inscribed on their stones).

That's correct. Out of these 3 super ideal vendors (WF,HPD and BGD). BGD is the only vendor left who still inscribe a logo on the girdle. WF and HPD used to, but maybe this was like 10 yrs ago??

 

[RunningwithScissors]

Since you already own a WF diamond and want to trade up, why not just continue to shop at WF? They are a top notch vender. Even if they don't have the exact size/clarity/color diamond in stock that you are looking for, they probably will soon and you can have one custom cut. That way you won't lose money on your trade-in and you will be purchasing an amazing, top of the line diamond.

 

[diamondnewbieny]

Since you already own a WF diamond and want to trade up, why not just continue to shop at WF? They are a top notch vender. Even if they don't have the exact size/clarity/color diamond in stock that you are looking for, they probably will soon and you can have one custom cut. That way you won't lose money on your trade-in and you will be purchasing an amazing, top of the line diamond.

WF didn’t have the size and color I was looking for. Another thing is when the carat size is bigger the more difficult it is to find one.

 

[diamondnewbieny]

Could it be the ‘recut’ needed was perhaps really to polish out the girdle to remove the ACA inscription?

BG side he need to recut and the diamond will result to be smaller. So I doubte it’s polishing out the inscription.

 

[the_mother_thing]

BG side he need to recut and the diamond will result to be smaller. So I doubte it’s polishing out the inscription.

My thought was that perhaps what they were ‘saying without saying’ was the ‘recut’ was really just to remove the current AGS inscription so it did not link back to WF. But that’s not a fair assumption/assertion for me to make, as I don’t have any reason to believe BGD would act unethically. It’s their business, their policy, their prerogative. That said, given the WF/BGD history noted earlier in this thread and others on PS, one cannot help but raise an eyebrow here.

It sounds like - per what was posted earlier regarding BGD allowing trade-in of some ACAs during Brian’s tenure at WF - they wanted/needed to confirm if yours was one that was cut when he was at WF which they’d want the report & diamond in-hand to confirm, and it was determined not to be eligible, so it was rejected.

That said, I’d still ask BGD to answer - specifically - what cut/proportion parameter of your diamond does not meet BGD’s criteria and warrants a recut. If it’s not due to some years-old pizzing contest, in the interest of transparency with a customer, it would be an opportunity for them to position/promote why they feel their cut is ‘better’ if they shared exactly what the “inferior” parameter is. (Note: I’m not suggesting your ACA actually is ‘inferior’ in anyway; I’m sure it’s amazeballs!).

 

[MissGotRocks]

BG side he need to recut and the diamond will result to be smaller. So I doubte it’s polishing out the inscription.

Smaller diamond means less money.

Call WF and tell them what you are looking for. No sense wasting money on a trade with another vendor when you can get full credit at WF. I am sure they will work with you.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Call WF and tell them what you are looking for. No sense wasting money on a trade with another vendor when you can get full credit at WF. I am sure they will work with you.

Ditto. If you cannot get a straight, clear answer about why they feel a recut is necessary, I wouldn’t waste any more time. WF can probably advise if they have something in their pipeline forthcoming that hasn’t hit the site yet, or keep an eye out for you until something meeting your criteria comes up (assuming you’re not in a time crunch and can wait).

It really does irk me that BGD would suggest your ACA is somehow inferior without specifying exactly what/how ... it’s like wearing your ACA in a ‘maul’ jewelry store and having them say how much better their diamonds are than your “online” diamond when they have no clue what you actually have.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Agreed. There can be a whole host of reasons why they are taking this position but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. It just isn't going to work unless you are willing to lose a lot of money on your trade.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Funny thing, in the ten years since Brian Gavin left Whiteflash, the criteria for the A CUT ABOVE brand have only become more stringent. The proportion sets have remained the same, as has the grading of hearts and arrows. We have added requirements for certain aspects of finish and most importantly, transparency. Any clarity based characteristics that appreciably diminish light performance are no longer allowed in the brand.

And speaking of transparency, we brought all the qualifications and specifications for A CUT ABOVE out of the shadows. Whereas other vendors are intentionally vague about certain aspects of their brand, we publish ours so that customers can verify and hold us completely accountable for the representations we make about our brand.

We have enormous respect for all the companies working to bring precision cut diamonds to the market because we know it is not easy. But we believe in respecting the intelligence of our customers by giving them real, verifiable information rather than spinning up fairy tales about pixie dust or secret sauce.

The fact is, with today's diagnostic tools it is easily possible to understand exactly how precisely a diamond is crafted. Secrecy has dominated the diamond and jewelry industry for ages, and some practices die hard. We think that this generation is the one which will relegate old ways to the past.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Whereas other vendors are intentionally vague about certain aspects of their brand, we publish ours so that customers can verify and hold us completely accountable for the representations we make about our brand.

One of the many reasons (including personal experience & complete satisfaction with my WF diamond) that I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend WF ... to anyone ... on or off PS! I also fully respect & appreciate how - when one does experience an issue or has a question - you/WF appear to go above and beyond to resolve it and/or answer transparently, again whether on or off PS. First class customer service, IMO.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Funny thing, in the ten years since Brian Gavin left Whiteflash, the criteria for the A CUT ABOVE brand have only become more stringent. The proportion sets have remained the same, as has the grading of hearts and arrows. We have added requirements for certain aspects of finish and most importantly, transparency. Any clarity based characteristics that appreciably diminish light performance are no longer allowed in the brand.

And speaking of transparency, we brought all the qualifications and specifications for A CUT ABOVE out of the shadows. Whereas other vendors are intentionally vague about certain aspects of their brand, we publish ours so that customers can verify and hold us completely accountable for the representations we make about our brand.

We have enormous respect for all the companies working to bring precision cut diamonds to the market because we know it is not easy. But we believe in respecting the intelligence of our customers by giving them real, verifiable information rather than spinning up fairy tales about pixie dust or secret sauce.

The fact is, with today's diagnostic tools it is easily possible to understand exactly how precisely a diamond is crafted. Secrecy has dominated the diamond and jewelry industry for ages, and some practices die hard. We think that this generation is the one which will relegate old ways to the past.

Amen!! I think that statement bears repeating. With the technology and information that is available today, consumers should no longer be subject to the smoke and mirrors of long ago in diamond purchasing. It is still important, however, to find a vendor who understands this as well and feels that an educated consumer is their best customer.

 

[diamondnewbieny]

I got an answer from them and they told me “His primary concern is that the indexing and alignment of the facets are off and will affect the sparkle factor. Please reference the attached images which have been marked up to illustrate these inconsistencies. In addition, the size and shape of the lower girdle halves are not consistent enough to meet Brian Gavin's stringent Signature standards. Several other factors, many of which are proprietary and patented, disqualify your diamond.”

In addition they said they don’t feel comfortable buying this stone from me and resell it as their signature line because it’s does not meet their requirements, therefore they need to recut it.

What are your thoughts? I guess my diamond is inferior?

 

[diamondnewbieny]

They also offer a prepaid label for me to ship the stone to them and they will give me a complementary full analysis, then they will see what they can do from there. I am guessing they saw my post here, but I am glad they are able to give me an answer.

I am not sure if I want to send the stone so that they will tell me they still have to recut my diamond. My diamond is still set in a ring.

 

[ALRAAA]

I got an answer from them and they told me “His primary concern is that the indexing and alignment of the facets are off and will affect the sparkle factor. Please reference the attached images which have been marked up to illustrate these inconsistencies. In addition, the size and shape of the lower girdle halves are not consistent enough to meet Brian Gavin's stringent Signature standards. Several other factors, many of which are proprietary and patented, disqualify your diamond.”

What are your thoughts? I guess my diamond is inferior?

Are we splitting hairs in any useful manner here?
Or are we just wasting time, chasing after perfection that will not have any material effects beyond a certain point?
Like Ford said, if it were up to his engineers, no car would have ever come out of the assembly line.

 

[bmfang]

Are we splitting hairs in any useful manner here?
Or are we just wasting time, chasing after perfection that will not have any material effects beyond a certain point?
Like Ford said, if it were up to his engineers, no car would have ever come out of the assembly line.

Potentially that may be so. Brian also has his own business reputation to consider and he has high standards for cut quality.

But keep in mind, the OP has a stone in mind at BGD she wants to purchase because WF currently doesn’t have inventory that meets what she is looking for. So it’s a fair call for her (in my mind) to do what she thinks is beat for her as a consumer. If BGD choose not to accept a trade-in offer from her, that’s their business prerogative.

 

[EncikG]

I was shown the following range of stones which were a vendors second tier and sold at a discount to their premium line.

IRL I couldn’t tell the difference vs the premium line. Yes, we could be splitting hairs but doesn’t that also validates a vendors quest for perfection?

As to your dilemma, would a custom cut at whiteflash be an option?

 

[Dancing Fire]

I was shown the following range of stones which were a vendors second tier and sold at a discount to their premium line.

IRL I couldn’t tell the difference vs the premium line. Yes, we could be splitting hairs but doesn’t that also validates a vendors quest for perfection?

That is a true H&A stone in my book. Maybe in Asia all stones must grade in the colorless range (D-F) and VVS or better to make the top tier??

 

[diamondnewbieny]

I was shown the following range of stones which were a vendors second tier and sold at a discount to their premium line.

IRL I couldn’t tell the difference vs the premium line. Yes, we could be splitting hairs but doesn’t that also validates a vendors quest for perfection?

As to your dilemma, would a custom cut at whiteflash be an option?

I’m not going the custom route right now since I am not in a rush. The longer I wait the bigger diamond I can get as well. I just got really curious as to what are their differences when Brian Gavin told me he doesn’t want to accept my diamond.

I have diamonds from BG and also from WF. I don’t have a preferred vendor between them, depends on what they have available.

 

[EncikG]

That is a true H&A stone in my book. Maybe in Asia all stones must grade in the colorless range (D-F) and VVS or better to make the top tier??

For that stone, if I recalled correctly. The girdle was not perfect or entirely uniform at the 11-12 o’clock mark (aset view)

 

[bmfang]

For that stone, if I recalled correctly. The girdle was not perfect or entirely uniform at the 11-12 o’clock mark (aset view)

Yup, I see it. It’s this part right?

 

[MissGotRocks]

I got an answer from them and they told me “His primary concern is that the indexing and alignment of the facets are off and will affect the sparkle factor. Please reference the attached images which have been marked up to illustrate these inconsistencies. In addition, the size and shape of the lower girdle halves are not consistent enough to meet Brian Gavin's stringent Signature standards. Several other factors, many of which are proprietary and patented, disqualify your diamond.”

In addition they said they don’t feel comfortable buying this stone from me and resell it as their signature line because it’s does not meet their requirements, therefore they need to recut it.

What are your thoughts? I guess my diamond is inferior?

Have you ever felt that your diamond was inferior? Did you ever feel that one of the hearts was somehow not quite right? I'm guessing no. How many other vendor stones do you think he would pick apart like that? Probably all of them because he is really not interested in taking them in trade. He either has to be able to sell it for a profit or make a great deal of money on the new stone you would be purchasing to make up the difference. Much of that depends on current market pricing.

As the bold states - many of which are proprietary and patented - says that he isn't going to share that info with you. Again, not full transparency and suspect IMO. He certainly has the right to refuse to take your stone in trade and so he did. He didn't disclose these reasons until you pushed him on it.

Share this information with Whiteflash since they sold the diamond to you. See what they say and what they may be able to find for you. At some point you have to know that a trade with BGD just isn't going to work for you. If you really want that BGD diamond that badly, sell your current one yourself so that you can start over.

 

[Miss Marple]

Just wanted to chime in and say that there is no reason for BG to withhold information relating to patents. The whole point of patents is to make the info available for the world to see. Anybody can look up the information in a patent. The owner simply has a right to keep others from using the invention.

 

[diamondnewbieny]

Have you ever felt that your diamond was inferior? Did you ever feel that one of the hearts was somehow not quite right? I'm guessing no. How many other vendor stones do you think he would pick apart like that? Probably all of them because he is really not interested in taking them in trade. He either has to be able to sell it for a profit or make a great deal of money on the new stone you would be purchasing to make up the difference. Much of that depends on current market pricing.

As the bold states - many of which are proprietary and patented - says that he isn't going to share that info with you. Again, not full transparency and suspect IMO. He certainly has the right to refuse to take your stone in trade and so he did. He didn't disclose these reasons until you pushed him on it.

Share this information with Whiteflash since they sold the diamond to you. See what they say and what they may be able to find for you. At some point you have to know that a trade with BGD just isn't going to work for you. If you really want that BGD diamond that badly, sell your current one yourself so that you can start over.

It did come across my mind about the heart image, but I thought that WF must did their job and trusted them on it. On WF web site it said the split should not be more than 8% and the heart image should not be 5% smaller or bigger.However I don’t feel it’s inferior. It’s still ACA. I don’t dislike my diamond and I am not wanting the one I saw from BG that badly. I just wanted to know what are my options and see if I can go with BG. Since the answer is no I will just wait and see what is available with WF.

 

[Dancing Fire]

It did come across my mind about the heart image, but I thought that WF must did their job and trusted them on it. On WF web site it said the split should not be more than 8% and the heart image should not be 5% smaller or bigger.However I don’t feel it’s inferior. It’s still ACA. I don’t dislike my diamond and I am not wanting the one I saw from BG that badly. I just wanted to know what are my options and see if I can go with BG. Since the answer is no I will just wait and see what is available with WF.

That would be your best bet.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Any guesses where this ‘dud’ is from? The tops of the hearts do not appear consistent, and a couple of them (at 7:00 & 10:00) have tips that appear imperfect. And do not eeeeeeven get me started on those dots in several of the hearts, which surely and discernibly will diminish sparkle factor!

The more I think about this, the more it aggravates me (for you) that a determination of ‘inferior quality’ was made about your diamond ... based on a PICTURE!

 

[diamondnewbieny]

Any guesses where this ‘dud’ is from? The tops of the hearts do not appear consistent, and a couple of them (at 7:00 & 10:00) have tips that appear imperfect. And do not eeeeeeven get me started on those dots in several of the hearts, which surely and discernibly will diminish sparkle factor!

The more I think about this, the more it aggravates me (for you) that a determination of ‘inferior quality’ was made about your diamond ... based on a PICTURE!

At first they just told me they need to recut it because it didn’t meet their requirements, then when I questioned what didn’t meet their expectations, they told me they will offer to evaluate my diamond for me to make sure. I feel that they just weren’t interested trading with my ACA. Which is fine, but they made it seems like my diamond is inferior... then I went to their web site and see how their H&A images look like, some didn’t look perfect to me as well, so I don’t know what is what now. Whatever, it’s all ok with me.

 

[ALRAAA]

I am new to this, but, understandably, a lot of it is marketing.

Like... there is a difference in quality between a $1K pair of men's shoes and a $5K pair. Undeniable.
For the vast majority of people, is the price difference worth it? Does one pair perform so much better than the other to justify the difference in pricing?

Like everything else, there's BS consumerism and marketing involved... I just got an ACA diamond that's 50% more expensive than a similar non ACA diamond and am looking forward to seeing the difference for myself. I am keeping an open mind.

Beyond this, it looks like some market players are trying to build their brands and differentiate how they are perceived in the marketplace. In general, this doesn't have anything to do with quality. Top stock to our previous examples, Gucci charges $800 for shoes that are barely glued together because of the brand position.

 

[gm89uk]

It's nothing to do with your diamond being inferior. It's politics

 

[gm89uk]

No diamond has a 100% picture perfect symmetry. In addition, more picture perfect symmetry / perfectly shaped hearts doesn't always mean the best performance. If each bendor assesses their own diamonds with the same critical microscopes, it would be interesting. Easier to just say no thanks.

I don't want to misquote but I remember @John Pollard stating CBIs are cut for maximum performance as a primary objective, the hearts and arrows come with that as a secondary objective.

 

[TreeScientist]

It's nothing to do with your diamond being inferior. It's politics

Exactly. I've seen several diamonds in the BG Signature line that had much greater inconsistencies in the hearts than the OP's diamond exhibits. Nothing inferior about this ACA compared to a majority of the BG Signature line. Not in the least.

As I recall, there was quite a row between BG and WF when he left to start his own company. I forgot exactly what it was about (an older thread discussed it in vague terms) but needless to say they're not on the best of terms. The fact that he'll take ANY Whiteflash ACA cut before he left, during a period when the cut parameters for ACAs (and SuperIdeals in general) were less stringent than they are now, should be proof enough to the OP that he just doesn't want to accept a stone from WhiteFlash that was cut after he left the company.