NeverEndingUpgrade
Brilliant_Rock
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Would it be financial suicide?
Did anyone go to law school after 40?
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purselover
Ideal_Rock
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I haven''t nor do I know anyone who has - short answer is probably but we need more info.
What schools are you looking at, what type of law do you want to practice, will you need student loans? etc.
What schools are you looking at, what type of law do you want to practice, will you need student loans? etc.
Mrs Mitchell
Ideal_Rock
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I''m at law school at the moment, and a lot of my classmates are over 40. There are 34 of us on the course and I''d say about 10 of us are over 40. I''m 36. I think we''re finding it easier than the people who are there straight from high school and we''re obviously employable, as all of us older people have jobs to go to or interviews coming up over the next few weeks. Obviously, you''ll take a hit financially. Even if I get the job I have an interview for, I''ll only be making a third of what I earned before. I''m hoping that will improve fairly quickly!
lucyandroger
Brilliant_Rock
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Lawyers were laid off in record numbers last year and yet law school applications have risen.
If you're planning on taking out student loans and/or don't have a very healthy retirement fund, then I would strongly advise against it. If you're interested in the law, there are many jobs that you can look into that don't require the investment of three years of your life and a couple hundred thousand dollars.
ETA - I'm talking about in the US. Not sure where you are located...
If you're planning on taking out student loans and/or don't have a very healthy retirement fund, then I would strongly advise against it. If you're interested in the law, there are many jobs that you can look into that don't require the investment of three years of your life and a couple hundred thousand dollars.
ETA - I'm talking about in the US. Not sure where you are located...
lucyandroger
Brilliant_Rock
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Yes indeed - easier right now. It''ll make life a lot harder when in three years, they still don''t have a job but now have six figures in debt. I''m talking law school in particular, not grad school in general.
NeverEndingUpgrade
Brilliant_Rock
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I just started a grad program for Dispute Resolution. One of my classes is Law and I am really enjoying it. Some of my classmates have JDs and they are taking the program just for acquiring new skills. The only law school in town right now is a very expensive private school, but a new public law school is set to start taking applications this fall with classes starting in 2011. I am interested in several areas of law and haven''t narrowed it down.
I do know that I can expect a $100,000 inheritance sometime within the next 10 years. My spouse and I don''t really have a lot of retirement, largely due to being in low-paying careers for most of our married lives (18 years this May). I can''t live on $100K for the rest of my life, so I am thinking that an investment in a new career might be the way to go. I am getting a lot of encouragement from classmates and my law class professor, but they won''t be paying my bill if you know what I mean.
I do know that I can expect a $100,000 inheritance sometime within the next 10 years. My spouse and I don''t really have a lot of retirement, largely due to being in low-paying careers for most of our married lives (18 years this May). I can''t live on $100K for the rest of my life, so I am thinking that an investment in a new career might be the way to go. I am getting a lot of encouragement from classmates and my law class professor, but they won''t be paying my bill if you know what I mean.
Octavia
Ideal_Rock
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I have several classmates over 40, even over 50. I can't say whether they think it was financial suicide because I'm not really close enough to them to discuss such things, but I will say that I feel like it was an incredibly bad call for my finances and I'll be graduating this spring at 28. And I had a full-tuition scholarship. But I've still got loans, and the chance of finding a job that pays enough to repay the loans is pretty dismal. The market will hopefully be better by the time you'd graduate, but also keep in mind that studying law and actually being a lawyer are COMPLETELY different things.
One thing I'd be careful of with the new law school near you is ABA accreditation -- if the school doesn't become accredited by the time you graduate, you won't be able to take the bar exam (unless you're in Wisconsin where they don't require it for graduates of WI schools...) and it will be a complete waste of money. It's unusual for a school not to become accredited, but it could happen, so do your homework before plunking down your dollars.
One thing I'd be careful of with the new law school near you is ABA accreditation -- if the school doesn't become accredited by the time you graduate, you won't be able to take the bar exam (unless you're in Wisconsin where they don't require it for graduates of WI schools...) and it will be a complete waste of money. It's unusual for a school not to become accredited, but it could happen, so do your homework before plunking down your dollars.
Octavia
Ideal_Rock
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Lilyfoot, I purposely chose the school I''m at because it was about $110,000 cheaper than my next choice. And the market wasn''t so terrible when I started law school -- at the time, it was pretty much a given that if you were in the top 25-30% of the class, you''d have a good job lined up before graduation. Maybe not at one of the biggest of the BigLaw firms, but definitely at a respectable regional firm. Now, not so much...there''s been a domino effect with associates being laid off, firms extending fewer offers to third-year students, judges allowing their clerks to stay on longer because there are no jobs out there for them after the term is up, etc. So while I knew that there would be some adverse effects (savings are gone, no retirement contributions for the past 3 years, student loans I didn''t have before), nobody really predicted how terrible it actually is on account of the legal market completely crashing.
I''m SURE that some of the attorneys you work with still have loans...pretty much anyone who has graduated from law school in the last few years and isn''t independently wealthy will have $50K in loans at a minimum at graduation, plus bar loans if the firm doesn''t pay for the exam. Even at a healthy salary, it takes awhile to pay that off.
I''m SURE that some of the attorneys you work with still have loans...pretty much anyone who has graduated from law school in the last few years and isn''t independently wealthy will have $50K in loans at a minimum at graduation, plus bar loans if the firm doesn''t pay for the exam. Even at a healthy salary, it takes awhile to pay that off.
NeverEndingUpgrade
Brilliant_Rock
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Octavia, thanks for your insight. My law professor said that the school would pretty much have to be ABA accredited by the time the first class graduated. Otherwise, why would anyone enroll?
I would love for you to expound on your statement about studying law and being a lawyer being completely different things.
sillyberry
Brilliant_Rock
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I''m not Octavia (obviously!), but I think what she''s getting at is that law school tends to use the case method to discuss legal principles in interesting and novel ways. You get to take classes in interesting subjects (right now I''m taking Freedom of Speech, Marriage, Social Norms, and Supreme Court Practice).
Practicing law (particularly in a big firm) is a lot of reading (whether files for discovery in litigation or contracts on the business side). If you are involved in a small firm, it can be a lot of small matters (wills, divorces, small disputes). Very very few people work in cutting edge legal theory.
Law itself can be fascinating, but practicing law...not so much, by and large.
As to your general question: I would think very hard about what you would want to do after graduation and how your education could make that happen. Talk to attorneys in your area to see what the market is like. Try and find out what class rank would you need to get that kind of job. Another thing is that a new school won''t have an alumni base to connect you into the legal field. It may, however, have big scholarships for the very first classes (some schools do that).
I''m not trying to discourage you, just trying to posit some questions that would be helpful to think about!
LabRatPhD
Shiny_Rock
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I am not an attorney, but my FI is a 4th year associate in BigLaw and one of his frustrations is that he misses the academic environment associated with law school. His job does nothing involving what he liked about law school. His dream was to be a law school professor and even though he went to a top 10 law school, getting into academia is way too hard. He was so unhappy in his second year of working at the firm that he considered leaving and going into a political science PhD program. He did have a 6 figure loan and it just wasn''t practical for us to live on two grad school stipends. In the last couple of years, he has been able to get really involved with some major litigation and is now content with where he is in his career.
I should say that FI was the youngest in his incoming class in law school (he went straight out of undergrad) and another thing he always says is that many people were much older and seemed to be better with budgeting time for studying and family (some people had children).
About loans - FI had massive loans to pay off upon graduating (private law school tuition) and paid off a lot on his own by using bonuses, etc. He also received a large inheritance from his grandmother who passed away last year and was able to pay off the remainder. We are VERY, VERY lucky in this aspect because his cohorts from law school who weren''t trust fund kids still have more than half of their loans remaining.
It is a huge financial burden so how badly you want to go through it is definitely something to think about.
whitby_2773
Ideal_Rock
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hi neverendingupgrade. i did a masters in disp res through a university in australia - where are you studying? US?
this was the equivalent of an Executive MBA program (it wasnt exactly like that, but if you''re from the US, this is probably the best i can parallel it with) just in that it required a large degree of work experience and required you to be working full time at the time. so i''m definitely pro studying in one''s 30''s/40''s. i''m a psychologist by training, so i was working in the area and was able to support myself while i studied. what *did* hapen, tho, was that i got a lot of work offers from attorneys with whom i worked who wanted to use a transformational model of mediation, but couldnt get past their adversarial roots.
so - have you thought about doing mediation as a career, and working with/for lawyers? there''s a lot of money to be made in this field. i was offered the possibility of going overseas to do my PhD in a pretty prestigious law school on the US east coast (i was doing disp res in australia), but decided not to pursue it. all that to say, tho, i definitely didnt need to be a lawyer to make a good living.
Brown.Eyed.Girl
Ideal_Rock
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+1
As someone who''s facing the end of the law school road with all those loans, it''s a terrifying prospect. Plus, the jobs that enable you to pay off loans fairly quickly (i.e. Biglaw) are horrendously boring and awful (especially as junior associates). You''re basically doing doc review. It''s a pretty dismal future. I really wish I hadn''t gone - with 6-figure debt, it''s pretty much impossible to get out of law for a while.
I would honestly make a decision based on where you get in and what kind of scholarships you''re getting. I would NOT go if you''re not getting at least a half-tuition scholarship. The presence of a ton of debt really restricts your options. Also, be wary of lower-ranked schools that offer you a full-ride - many of those are contingent on you maintaining a certain GPA throughout law school, and 1L grades are a total crapshoot at times. Quite a few people lose their scholarships as a result, which means they''re now stuck at a lower-ranked school (not so prestigious) and are racking up debt.
winternight
Brilliant_Rock
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How it effects you financially depends on alot of things. I have a good friend who attended in his 40s and ended up with some great legal jobs, for various reasons he left them to get an MBA. Where you go to school is very important for your future earning potential. As is what you plan on doing for a legal career. There are also scholarships available.
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Hi, long-time lawyer here. Starting law school in your 40's may or may not be financial suicide, depending on how you do it. If you don't work and take out massive student loans, then it will take a long time to break even again especially in this economy. It's just basic arithmetic. If you add up the cost of tuition, books, and the lost income during the 3 years of school, that can be a pretty big number especially if you go to a private school or pay out of state tuition and don't work. Then you've got a big debt load that will take years or even decades to pay off when you should be saving for retirement. If you go to a public school where the tuition is modest and your hubby can cover housing and living expenses so you don't have to borrow money, then the debt load can be virtually non-existent. For me, I had a scholarship for 2 years, my husband covered the 3rd year of private tuition from his income, plus all living expenses so we came out with almost no debt. I was also in my 20's so had lots of years to make up the lost income.
Practicing law is different than law school the same way practicing medicine is different than med school. They are just different experiences entirely. What the practice of law is like depends on so many different variables, it's hard to generalize. A junior lawyer's practice can be a lot different than it will be when they gain experience. And a big firm/big city experience will be different than someone who takes a different career path. It helps to be an excellent writer, and a quick thinker. And fundamentally, you have to like being a problem solver. That's the essence of what lawyers do. It seems simple, but the fact is that most of your clients will have a problem they need help with, and your job is to help solve that problem for them. You have to like dealing with problems, and not everyone is well-suited to that.
Practicing law is different than law school the same way practicing medicine is different than med school. They are just different experiences entirely. What the practice of law is like depends on so many different variables, it's hard to generalize. A junior lawyer's practice can be a lot different than it will be when they gain experience. And a big firm/big city experience will be different than someone who takes a different career path. It helps to be an excellent writer, and a quick thinker. And fundamentally, you have to like being a problem solver. That's the essence of what lawyers do. It seems simple, but the fact is that most of your clients will have a problem they need help with, and your job is to help solve that problem for them. You have to like dealing with problems, and not everyone is well-suited to that.
PinkTower
Brilliant_Rock
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My husband is in his 50''s and went straight to law school from college. We were already married. It took us ten years to pay off his law school loans after he graduated. I know the amounts you end up owing after law school now are staggering, but if adjusted for inflation, I wonder if they are any worse than they were in the 80''s? It was like a big car payment for us for ten years, but it was not like a mortgage payment.
NeverEndingUpgrade
Brilliant_Rock
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I really appreciate the feedback I am getting here. I have already decided that if I do this, I am going to wait for the public law school to open and apply for scholarships. I would also try hard to get us in a favorable financial situation (no debt) by Fall 2011 when the classes would start. This is a tangible goal but will only happen if my husband and I can better our job situations a little between now and then. So far, the economy hasn''t allowed us to do it, but that could change.
In any event, I don''t think I would risk taking on a private law school debt load. It is just too great. I would think that it would also limit the kinds of jobs you could get since you would require a huge salary to pay your loans. I am mostly interested in family law and mediation but am still exploring the possibilities at this time.
Thanks again for all the input and I would love to hear more if anyone else would like to jump in.
In any event, I don''t think I would risk taking on a private law school debt load. It is just too great. I would think that it would also limit the kinds of jobs you could get since you would require a huge salary to pay your loans. I am mostly interested in family law and mediation but am still exploring the possibilities at this time.
Thanks again for all the input and I would love to hear more if anyone else would like to jump in.
lucyandroger
Brilliant_Rock
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I went to an ivy league law school. My student loan payment is about $1,500 a month. My SO has the same - so as a couple we pay $3,000 a month in student loans.
PinkTower
Brilliant_Rock
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lucy,
Is that payment just for Law School, or does it include college? We borrowed every dime for Law School only, and it was like a large car payment, but we were done in ten years. Fifteen hundred a month sounds more like a house payment. He went to Emory, which is expensive.
Is that payment just for Law School, or does it include college? We borrowed every dime for Law School only, and it was like a large car payment, but we were done in ten years. Fifteen hundred a month sounds more like a house payment. He went to Emory, which is expensive.
LabRatPhD
Shiny_Rock
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My FI also went to an ivy league law school and that''s about what he was paying ever month. I don''t know if that was the amount due or he was just paying higher than the monthly balance (which he tried to do as often as he could). He too had to take out loans for his entire law school education. He did try to pay off the private loans first, which had a much higher interest rate than his federal loan.
Octavia
Ideal_Rock
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Not lucy, but I'm at a public law school and have only taken Stafford loans (both subsidized and unsubsidized) for my living expenses. My law school loan payments will be about $650/mo over 10 years and my leftover undergrad loans are $120/mo.
I just did a rough calculation of the repayment amount for someone who attends the Ivy League school in my city and borrows every penny of tuition and living expenses. With the max amount of Stafford Loans ($20,500/year, 6.8% interest) and the balance in PLUS loans (would be roughly $120,000 at 8.5% interest) calculated over a 10-year repayment period, the monthly repayment amount is $2196. That doesn't even include interest accrued while in school, I didn't feel like getting that complicated. It also wouldn't include any undergrad loans. Scary, right? There are extended repayment plans and some types of debt forgiveness plans available, but that's still a crazy number.
I just did a rough calculation of the repayment amount for someone who attends the Ivy League school in my city and borrows every penny of tuition and living expenses. With the max amount of Stafford Loans ($20,500/year, 6.8% interest) and the balance in PLUS loans (would be roughly $120,000 at 8.5% interest) calculated over a 10-year repayment period, the monthly repayment amount is $2196. That doesn't even include interest accrued while in school, I didn't feel like getting that complicated. It also wouldn't include any undergrad loans. Scary, right? There are extended repayment plans and some types of debt forgiveness plans available, but that's still a crazy number.
LabRatPhD
Shiny_Rock
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I have no clue, as I have been fortunate to not have to deal with loans, but I was under the impression that interest doesn''t accumulate until you have graduated? Maybe not. I would ask FI, but he was so traumatized by his past law school debt that he has blocked most of this kind of info out.
lucyandroger
Brilliant_Rock
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That is for law school ONLY. We had absolutely no undergraduate debt. Law school tuition just keeps rising - much, much faster than inflation. If we kept paying the minimum payment, we would also be done in ten years.
ETA - We each received about $50,000 in grants as well that we don't have to pay back.
lucyandroger
Brilliant_Rock
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The highlighted part cracked me up. I remember when I was in law school, the loans seemed like no big deal. Then I started working and realized what I had to do to pay these things back -- it is traumatizingDate: 2/10/2010 6:02:51 PM
Author: LabRatPhD
I have no clue, as I have been fortunate to not have to deal with loans, but I was under the impression that interest doesn''t accumulate until you have graduated? Maybe not. I would ask FI, but he was so traumatized by his past law school debt that he has blocked most of this kind of info out.Either way, it was a heck of a lot of money! I honestly thought he was paying around $1500/mo but maybe he was paying a lot more. He didn''t have undergrad loans so this was all law school loans he was paying.
If I recall correctly, federal loans do not accumulate interest while you''re in school but most private loans do. One of the hard parts is looking at the current principal of the loan and realizing it''s still more than the original amount of the loan because of fees/interest.
Octavia
Ideal_Rock
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Some federal loans are subsidized, so they don't accrue interest until after graduation. Law students can currently take up to $8500/year in subsidized Staffords. The rest of the Stafford loans (up to $12k), as well as PLUS/private loans, are unsubsidized and accrue immediately. There's a 6-month grace period after graduation until repayment begins, but interest still accrues during that time.
PinkTower
Brilliant_Rock
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Never ending,
Have you taken the LSAT?
I had a friend who took it in her 40''s, and she scored really high. Apparently law schools find older candidates who score very highly quite attractive. I recall she was offered a scholarship at Cornell and turned it down because she wanted to stay close to home.
Have you taken the LSAT?
I had a friend who took it in her 40''s, and she scored really high. Apparently law schools find older candidates who score very highly quite attractive. I recall she was offered a scholarship at Cornell and turned it down because she wanted to stay close to home.
Brown.Eyed.Girl
Ideal_Rock
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I was just going to mention this.
Some of the T14 (Top 14) schools have full scholarships. Michigan has the Darrow, Columbia the Hamilton. A few others. Those are reserved for exceptional applicants - high LSAT, high GPA, etc. But you never know. I think you just have to apply to the school and get accepted and wait - no separate application for these.
Also a good bet if you have the numbers is Northwestern Law. They''re a T14 school, they favor older applicants with work experience, plus they now have an Accelerated JD program that lets you graduate in 2 years (you spend a summer in class though, I believe). It''s a lot of work but leaving off an extra year of debt is a great incentive.
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