Diamond Negotiation - Best Practice

[rockafella]

Hello everyone. This is my first post. I thought I would tell everyone that I have a friend who is trying to introduce me to a wholesaler. She claims that wholesalers cut out the middleman (retailers) so their prices are cheaper. Has anyone dealt with these wholesalers give their thoughts on whether or not its actually cheaper?

When going to a retailer, what is good negotiating tactic? Typically, can I start with a 30% off their asking price?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Do not use a jeweler recommended by a friend It rarely ends well it seems to me. Especially do not buy from a "wholesaler". It is a misleading names used to lull consumers into thinking they are getting a deal, cutting out the "middle man". I promise you, if you are an indivudal buying a single diamond you are paying regular retail prices.

The only way to really save money is to buy online from a company with low overheads and a business practice that allows them to operate on slim margins.

 

[rockafella]

Yeah, I don't even know what "wholesalers" mean. She interpreted as the person who sells to the mom and pop retailers who in turn, mark up the price. By cutting out the retailer, you cut out the price.

The only issue I have with online retailers, is that most of their deals are not in-house. Thus, they will charge you a fee to bring it in and look. Without physically being there in person, I hesitate to spend that kind of money through a wire transaction. Other folks here may feel otherwise.

With that said, by going to a retailer, what do you folks recommend in negotiating? 20% 30% 40% off? Don't want to offend the seller. Is industry standard lower than 20%? i.e. a $10k diamond offered by the seller. Should I offer $8k, $7k, $6k?

 

[rockafella]

Do not use a jeweler recommended by a friend It rarely ends well it seems to me. Especially do not buy from a "wholesaler". It is a misleading names used to lull consumers into thinking they are getting a deal, cutting out the "middle man". I promise you, if you are an indivudal buying a single diamond you are paying regular retail prices.

The only way to really save money is to buy online from a company with low overheads and a business practice that allows them to operate on slim margins.

Curious as to why you think recommendations through friends usually end poorly?

 

[Gypsy]

Experience. Because in 7 years on this board I've seen 'friend recommendations' work out with a good result ONCE. And Dreamer's had a similar experience.

We get a couple people a week with a 'friend' jeweler and over 7 years: 52 weeks a year, 2 posts a week, 7 years-- ONCE has it worked out.

They aren't YOUR friend. They are a business person and you are a customer by referral. They are in business to make a profit. They are human and some have great ethics and others don't, some have good skills, some don't. And unless your friend who is recommending things knows a lot about jewelry or is in the trade, what qualifications do they have to judge how good the jeweler is?

And just because someone has a nice and helpful personality, doesn't mean they have being accurate, truthful, and just because they own a jewelry store or work in one doesn't mean they are knowledgeable.

Good sales men can sell ice to eskimos and the eskimos walk away thinking what a great guy the sales man was and they should have that nice man over for dinner some day.

 

[Haven]

I totally agree with what Gypsy and Dreamer have posted.

As for what percent off you should offer, I think that's the wrong approach. What you should do instead is get the stats for the diamonds you are interested in, and then do a search here on PS to see what comparable stones are priced. Ask to see GIA or AGS stones only, that will give you a better basis for comparison.

 

[TitanCi]

Do not use a jeweler recommended by a friend It rarely ends well it seems to me. Especially do not buy from a "wholesaler". It is a misleading names used to lull consumers into thinking they are getting a deal, cutting out the "middle man". I promise you, if you are an indivudal buying a single diamond you are paying regular retail prices.

The only way to really save money is to buy online from a company with low overheads and a business practice that allows them to operate on slim margins.

Going off of Dreamer and Gypsy, I'd have to say you can add another count to that "1" count. My experience with a "wholesaler" (they even "assured" me they normally do not sell to individuals, only helped me out cuz I know their daugther; supposedly) was good. On both occasions they refunded me 100% of my money. She was extra nice to me and went above and beyond what I expected in terms of service (helped me get settings when going to the jewelers that owed her money from the memos)... Had I bought stones from the stores/retailers, they would have charged me at least 10%, but with them no questions asked - as long as I was happy. Matter of fact, I asked one of the trusted vendors here if the price I paid for the stone I had was fair, and he said they only made a few hundred bucks off me so I believe in them... so make that a two count!

But ... to say I saved alot? I'm not sure because the numbers the WS worked out for me was based off the Rap sheet. He charged me full rap value and knocked off 5% off the final cost. When I came back and told them of stones I found online, that number magically changed to 15% that they could offer me. So yes, they are in for business to make money... can you negotiate? I wasn't able to with a RB. Fancy cut, yes, but not RB... I trust online, but to each his own!

 

[Gypsy]

Rule:

IF a "wholesaler" is selling to you they are lying. They are a retailer and trying to take advantage of your ignorance of the trade. If it sounds too good to be true: it usually is.

If someone you've never met but are introduced to through a friend, or only know in passing, offers to sell you a 20k diamond for 15k, then the diamond is only worth 15k (or 13k in reality) because WHY would they give you a 5k break out of THEIR profits they feed their family out of? They wouldn't. That's just reality.

 

[Haven]

Rule:

IF a "wholesaler" is selling to you they are lying. They are a retailer and trying to take advantage of your ignorance of the trade. If it sounds too good to be true: it usually is.

If someone you've never met but are introduced to through a friend, or only know in passing, offers to sell you a 20k diamond for 15k, then the diamond is only worth 15k (or 13k in reality) because WHY would they give you a 5k break out of THEIR profits they feed their family out of? They wouldn't. That's just reality.

This sounds like another great PSA, Gypsy!

 

[Gypsy]

Rule:

IF a "wholesaler" is selling to you they are lying. They are a retailer and trying to take advantage of your ignorance of the trade. If it sounds too good to be true: it usually is.

If someone you've never met but are introduced to through a friend, or only know in passing, offers to sell you a 20k diamond for 15k, then the diamond is only worth 15k (or 13k in reality) because WHY would they give you a 5k break out of THEIR profits they feed their family out of? They wouldn't. That's just reality.

This sounds like another great PSA, Gypsy!

Thank you Haven. There are days when I think the top 15 most frequent RT posters should all get together and do a big handbook/ PSA thing for OUR OWN use so that we could all cut and paste from it. With someone particularly anal in charge of editing it and making the chapter headings clickable so that it takes you right to the topic you need. It's a fond day dream of mine.

 

[Haven]

That's a GREAT idea. I'm not a frequent RT poster, but I can edit!

 

[Christina...]

Rule:

IF a "wholesaler" is selling to you they are lying. They are a retailer and trying to take advantage of your ignorance of the trade. If it sounds too good to be true: it usually is.

If someone you've never met but are introduced to through a friend, or only know in passing, offers to sell you a 20k diamond for 15k, then the diamond is only worth 15k (or 13k in reality) because WHY would they give you a 5k break out of THEIR profits they feed their family out of? They wouldn't. That's just reality.

This sounds like another great PSA, Gypsy!

Thank you Haven. There are days when I think the top 15 most frequent RT posters should all get together and do a big handbook/ PSA thing for OUR OWN use so that we could all cut and paste from it. With someone particularly anal in charge of editing it and making the chapter headings clickable so that it takes you right to the topic you need. It's a fond day dream of mine.

That's a fantastic idea! Imagine how many threads you could work through quickly, giving everyone accurate and helpful information!!

 

[Enerchi]

DO IT, Gypsy! that would be wonderful - we all learn from the best and the top 15 posters here ARE the best! You guys collectively have a TON of knowledge - and it would save you all so much 'nonsense' posting if you didn't have to repeat the same thing, time after time, to posters that didn't bother to check out the resource tabs above.

I think it would be a great PSA to post that collective info - go for it!

 

[Mico]

Do not use a jeweler recommended by a friend It rarely ends well it seems to me. Especially do not buy from a "wholesaler". It is a misleading names used to lull consumers into thinking they are getting a deal, cutting out the "middle man". I promise you, if you are an indivudal buying a single diamond you are paying regular retail prices.

The only way to really save money is to buy online from a company with low overheads and a business practice that allows them to operate on slim margins.

Going off of Dreamer and Gypsy, I'd have to say you can add another count to that "1" count. My experience with a "wholesaler" (they even "assured" me they normally do not sell to individuals, only helped me out cuz I know their daugther; supposedly) was good. On both occasions they refunded me 100% of my money. She was extra nice to me and went above and beyond what I expected in terms of service (helped me get settings when going to the jewelers that owed her money from the memos)... Had I bought stones from the stores/retailers, they would have charged me at least 10%, but with them no questions asked - as long as I was happy. Matter of fact, I asked one of the trusted vendors here if the price I paid for the stone I had was fair, and he said they only made a few hundred bucks off me so I believe in them... so make that a two count!

But ... to say I saved alot? I'm not sure because the numbers the WS worked out for me was based off the Rap sheet. He charged me full rap value and knocked off 5% off the final cost. When I came back and told them of stones I found online, that number magically changed to 15% that they could offer me. So yes, they are in for business to make money... can you negotiate? I wasn't able to with a RB. Fancy cut, yes, but not RB... I trust online, but to each his own!

I agree with this, I actually ended up in a back room in the jewelers building with a wholesaler. He would show me Rap values and then go below them, also telling me how much he would sell to dealers (which would be less). I would have gotten an amazing deal through him if I lived in boston, I almost 100% would have gone with him, but I'm closer to NY and wanted someone who knew and had PS equipment such as IS and were accustomed to taking ASET photos.

I would purchase these tools (IS, ASET) if you want to use a wholesaler, and use the HCA (we purchased a RB) to see if you notice the difference with your eyes. Only demand GIA or AGS stones, but if offered an EGL - have them compare coloring with GIA/AGS stones side by side on by comparing color on the sides. You can always have the stone sent to GIA/AGS for more analysis if you'd like.

Good luck!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, we do end up posting this a couple of times a week! What a scam that there are so many "wholesalers" out there willing to do a "favor" by selling to a retail customer.

Titan, did you compare the stats and price on your diamond with vendors here? I hope you did before you bought. I'd be interested in comparing.

 

[bagelboy]

Welcome to Pricescope Rockafella, I agree with everything Gypsy has said. My local small chain jeweler, always buys his stones direct from the diamond cutters and cuts out the middleman yada, yada. It is a marketing line, nothing more. You know quite a few Pricescope vendors carry their own stones complete with Idealscope and ASET images and photos. You should also check out the return and upgrade and buyback policies of various vendors. I honestly don't believe that you can buy diamonds at lower markup than here from a Pricescope vendor. I'm sure you can find some "wholesaler" who is selling uncerted or EGL stones at a "tremendous" discount only to learn later that your great price was not so great. I would encourage you to do a little research BEFORE you purchase, we also get the guys who buy some poorly cut diamond at a nicely marked up price and no returns!!! Hope this helps!

 

[Mico]

Yes, we do end up posting this a couple of times a week! What a scam that there are so many "wholesalers" out there willing to do a "favor" by selling to a retail customer.

Titan, did you compare the stats and price on your diamond with vendors here? I hope you did before you bought. I'd be interested in comparing.

DS, most prices I was quoted were below PS search (not all) after discussions, started at PS search prices initially. Also, the gentleman I spoke with didn't have a retail store, just a back office with a huge safe - and "runners" coming in and out requesting different sizes for people to show their clients. It took two buzz ins and was located in a office with many windows and different lighting to compare.

also, he offered me 100% money back if i wanted to upgrade from the price i paid if purchasing with him, with no minimum on the upgrade

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="rockafella|

Curious as to why you think recommendations through friends usually end poorly?[/quote]


b/c the odds are 99.999% the so call "wholesaler" will end up screwing you...

 

[TitanCi]

Yes, we do end up posting this a couple of times a week! What a scam that there are so many "wholesalers" out there willing to do a "favor" by selling to a retail customer.

Titan, did you compare the stats and price on your diamond with vendors here? I hope you did before you bought. I'd be interested in comparing.

DS - of course I did! Not checking here first and then shopping is going against all I've been taught here! Mind you, I ended up buying from James Allen!!! Also, I got the stone I bought from JA appraised and the appraiser said, to him, the stone is more like a low F than a G! Cool!

For the F VS1 I had (bought for $14.8K, 1.36 XXX) the prices were at, if not a little lower, than the PS vendors for the same ct wt (not talking optics here!). They never once told me "if you buy from us you save from the middle man yada yada"...

I traded in the F VS1 I wanted to get a stone close to 1.5+ ct in G VS1 for my soon to be. They quoted me $16.7k, and that's with 15% off RAP full retail. So it worked out to be $19.2k without the discount ($12.6k/ct).

A quick search on PS shows 1.51 ct G VS1 for $11.2k/ct vs this "wholesaler"/person that only sells to store's $10964/ct. So they're right there I'd say...

So what then is a true wholesaler?

EDIT: Gypsy - that's what I was referring to in another post about how I felt you, Christina, and others were always repeating the same thing! I thought this sub-forum had a helpful stickies thread, or previous threads we could link people to when the questions asked were the exact same? Save you a little trouble, you know?

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="Mico|
I agree with this, I actually ended up in a back room in the jewelers building with a wholesaler. He would show me Rap values and then go below them, also telling me how much he would sell to dealers (which would be less). I would have gotten an amazing deal through him if I lived in boston, I almost 100% would have gone with him, but I'm closer to NY and wanted someone who knew and had PS equipment such as IS and were accustomed to taking ASET photos.

Good luck![/quote]

that don't mean S**T !!... there are many stones on Ebay selling for 25% below Rap that i wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

 

[trueblue101]

Gypsy! Please do not tease me! This may be one of the best ideas I have ever heard. Please let us all think of a way to make this happen
!!!

Rule:

IF a "wholesaler" is selling to you they are lying. They are a retailer and trying to take advantage of your ignorance of the trade. If it sounds too good to be true: it usually is.

If someone you've never met but are introduced to through a friend, or only know in passing, offers to sell you a 20k diamond for 15k, then the diamond is only worth 15k (or 13k in reality) because WHY would they give you a 5k break out of THEIR profits they feed their family out of? They wouldn't. That's just reality.

This sounds like another great PSA, Gypsy!

Thank you Haven. There are days when I think the top 15 most frequent RT posters should all get together and do a big handbook/ PSA thing for OUR OWN use so that we could all cut and paste from it. With someone particularly anal in charge of editing it and making the chapter headings clickable so that it takes you right to the topic you need. It's a fond day dream of mine.

 

[mandasand]

Seems so sketchy to me to meet some stranger with a bag of diamonds and a loop at some location.

 

[InnaR]

They aren't YOUR friend. They are a business person and you are a customer by referral. They are in business to make a profit. They are human and some have great ethics and others don't, some have good skills, some don't. And unless your friend who is recommending things knows a lot about jewelry or is in the trade, what qualifications do they have to judge how good the jeweler is?

And just because someone has a nice and helpful personality, doesn't mean they have being accurate, truthful, and just because they own a jewelry store or work in one doesn't mean they are knowledgeable.

Gypsy,
I would not agree with that. I think that answer to "whom I trust ?" question is - it depends.

Your statement that on lines stores change less because they don't have the staff to pay to is not correct in all cases. GOG does have a store, and a staff. Same with Whiteflash. I know many B&M shops that are smaller and have less staff.

Now to the knowledge and integrity. Just few days ago we discussed a diamond that was offered to the customer as an L diamond by online vendor, and was appraised as O/P. I'm not in the position to question vendor's knowledge or integrity, but with a high degree of probability the color of the stone was misinterpreted by the vendor.

So I would not be so confident in giving advice to avoide B&M shops. Both online and B&M shop owners are running for profit business. And the role of consumer in this process to get as much education as possible before making the purchase.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, we do end up posting this a couple of times a week! What a scam that there are so many "wholesalers" out there willing to do a "favor" by selling to a retail customer.

Titan, did you compare the stats and price on your diamond with vendors here? I hope you did before you bought. I'd be interested in comparing.

DS, most prices I was quoted were below PS search (not all) after discussions, started at PS search prices initially. Also, the gentleman I spoke with didn't have a retail store, just a back office with a huge safe - and "runners" coming in and out requesting different sizes for people to show their clients. It took two buzz ins and was located in a office with many windows and different lighting to compare.

also, he offered me 100% money back if i wanted to upgrade from the price i paid if purchasing with him, with no minimum on the upgrade

If he was offering you AGS Ideal cut stones and GIA Excellent stones (with one of you using an idealscope) and the prices were comparable or less than those on the database here, you were in a very unusual situation. How long was his return period?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

They aren't YOUR friend. They are a business person and you are a customer by referral. They are in business to make a profit. They are human and some have great ethics and others don't, some have good skills, some don't. And unless your friend who is recommending things knows a lot about jewelry or is in the trade, what qualifications do they have to judge how good the jeweler is?

And just because someone has a nice and helpful personality, doesn't mean they have being accurate, truthful, and just because they own a jewelry store or work in one doesn't mean they are knowledgeable.

Gypsy,
I would not agree with that. I think that answer to "whom I trust ?" question is - it depends.

Your statement that on lines stores change less because they don't have the staff to pay to is not correct in all cases. GOG does have a store, and a staff. Same with Whiteflash. I know many B&M shops that are smaller and have less staff.

Now to the knowledge and integrity. Just few days ago we discussed a diamond that was offered to the customer as an L diamond by online vendor, and was appraised as O/P. I'm not in the position to question vendor's knowledge or integrity, but with a high degree of probability the color of the stone was misinterpreted by the vendor.

So I would not be so confident in giving advice to avoide B&M shops. Both online and B&M shop owners are running for profit business. And the role of consumer in this process to get as much education as possible before making the purchase.

Inna, Gypsy is addressing sellers who claim to be wholesalers selling to the public which is not true unless they are a diamond supplier in NY or somewhere that sells only to jewelers. She wasn't addressing all jewelry stores. Incidentally, WhiteFlash does not have a retail store. They are an internet company.

 

[InnaR]

Inna, Gypsy is addressing sellers who claim to be wholesalers selling to the public which is not true unless they are a diamond supplier in NY or somewhere that sells only to jewelers. She wasn't addressing all jewelry stores. Incidentally, WhiteFlash does not have a retail store. They are an internet company.

They aren't YOUR friend. They are a business person and you are a customer by referral. They are in business to make a profit. They are human and some have great ethics and others don't, some have good skills, some don't. And unless your friend who is recommending things knows a lot about jewelry or is in the trade, what qualifications do they have to judge how good the jeweler is?

And just because someone has a nice and helpful personality, doesn't mean they have being accurate, truthful, and just because they own a jewelry store or work in one doesn't mean they are knowledgeable.

Gypsy,
I would not agree with that. I think that answer to "whom I trust ?" question is - it depends.

Your statement that on lines stores change less because they don't have the staff to pay to is not correct in all cases. GOG does have a store, and a staff. Same with Whiteflash. I know many B&M shops that are smaller and have less staff.

Now to the knowledge and integrity. Just few days ago we discussed a diamond that was offered to the customer as an L diamond by online vendor, and was appraised as O/P. I'm not in the position to question vendor's knowledge or integrity, but with a high degree of probability the color of the stone was misinterpreted by the vendor.

So I would not be so confident in giving advice to avoide B&M shops. Both online and B&M shop owners are running for profit business. And the role of consumer in this process to get as much education as possible before making the purchase.

Inna, Gypsy is addressing sellers who claim to be wholesalers selling to the public which is not true unless they are a diamond supplier in NY or somewhere that sells only to jewelers. She wasn't addressing all jewelry stores. Incidentally, WhiteFlash does not have a retail store. They are an internet company.

Really? I think that they would disagree with you. That is a quote from their website's home page.

"Local customers looking for certified ideal diamonds are delighted to discover that Whiteflash welcomes local customers to visit and shop at their Houston headquarters, enabling them to get the best of both worlds- online pricing, selection and convenience combined with the opportunity to inspect the goods in person before purchase. In the course of their visit, local customers have the opportunity to meet with a Whiteflash gemologist to discuss ideal and super ideal diamonds, and learn about the top quality fine jewelry manufacturing that is done on premises."

I reread Gypsy's post and she talks about "friend" jewerler stories on the Pricescope and the jewerlers who "own the jewerly store". I still think that she meant the general B&M jewerlers and not just the wholesalers

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, Gypsy will have to clarify what she meant. I'm sorry, I should have let her respond.

WhiteFlash does not have a jewelry store. If you are in town and have a couple of diamonds you specifically want to see, you can make an appointment and go to their corporate office to view the diamonds. But you will not see a case with the jewelry you see online or anything like that because most of their jewelry is made to order. James Allen will do the same thing if you make an appointment to come to their office, or at least that used to be the case. Good Old Gold, Pearlmans, Winfield's, ID Jewelry are some that come to mind that have retail jewelry stores.

 

[webdiva]

If the wholesaler can offer you the following, then go for it:

1. At least a 30 day refund policy
2. AGS or GIA certs
3. ASET and/or Idealscope images (depending on shape of diamond)
4. Time to search the value of that diamond and compare it to the PS database
5. Upgrade policy in the future in case your wife decides to go bigger

Do your research, understand what you are looking for and how to compare to other diamonds in the market. In my experience, this was not offered by wholesalers - that's why they are wholesalers and not retailers. FYI - most of the PS vendors have the same access to the same diamonds as this wholesaler - and charge anywhere from 5-10% margin on top of the wholesale price.

 

[Gypsy]

InnaR --I'd rather not respond, because well... I just kind of feel you take things out of context, enjoy causing drama, and misrepresent and misquote people to give their words the worst interpretation. And that's not something I want to spend my free time on here dealing with. But since poor DS is being challenged by you for my words I'll wade in just this once.

Diamondseeker is right about what I meant. Retail stores open to walk ins who claim to be wholesalers but are really retailers. Also wholesalers who have a side business of selling to the public on the sly *wink, wink* are also retailers in my opinion.

Now to clarify the comments I made that you misrepresented. I never ONCE said all local stores are bad and all online stores are good and that PS vendors are infallible. Never once in my entire 20,000 posts have I said that. And I certainly didn't say it here. My comment said, very explicitly that JUST BECAUSE someone works at or owns a ANY jewelry store (that includes PS vendors because I didn't carve them out) doesn't automatically mean they are knowledgeable. That's it. I did not carve out local stores, or in any way disparage them here. And at no point did I give advice to "avoid local shops" in this thread. So please do not put words in my mouth.

My exact words were: "And just because someone has a nice and helpful personality, doesn't mean they have being accurate, truthful, and just because they own a jewelry store or work in one doesn't mean they are knowledgeable."

As for the rest of what you are attributing to me here: "Your statement that on lines stores change less because they don't have the staff to pay to is not correct in all " -- Where did I say that or ANYTHING like it in this thread??? I didn't. So again, please do not put words in my mouth.

Finally, you have a habit of interrupting people's threads with complaints you have compiled from comments in other threads (often based on inaccurate recollections of what has actually been said), and other postings by members, and I have asked you before to start your own threads and to stop interrupting others' threads (particularly newbie's threads) with your personal crusade posts. Again, it makes it very confusing and is disrespectful to the OP of the thread when you do this. So please stop. Also, I'm not engaging you again in this thread. If you have further issues you will need to learn to start your own threads to address them.

 

[Mico]

Yes, we do end up posting this a couple of times a week! What a scam that there are so many "wholesalers" out there willing to do a "favor" by selling to a retail customer.

Titan, did you compare the stats and price on your diamond with vendors here? I hope you did before you bought. I'd be interested in comparing.

DS, most prices I was quoted were below PS search (not all) after discussions, started at PS search prices initially. Also, the gentleman I spoke with didn't have a retail store, just a back office with a huge safe - and "runners" coming in and out requesting different sizes for people to show their clients. It took two buzz ins and was located in a office with many windows and different lighting to compare.

also, he offered me 100% money back if i wanted to upgrade from the price i paid if purchasing with him, with no minimum on the upgrade

If he was offering you AGS Ideal cut stones and GIA Excellent stones (with one of you using an idealscope) and the prices were comparable or less than those on the database here, you were in a very unusual situation. How long was his return period?

sorry to thread jack OP - he said forever, he was in the boston jewelers building (333 washington). No IS or ASET and i'm not a boston local so working over the phone/internet would be hard - as well as asking for pictures. So I went with someone who could provide those.