Diamond images: my chat with a vendor

[marmi04]

Hi everyone, I was doing an online chat with a vendor featured here on Pricescope. I asked a few questions about what images of the diamonds would be available to me, and this is what I was told:

vendor: We do not have ASET or idealscope images

me: ok. what kind of images are available of the stones?

vendor: We have found that photographs do not accurately portray diamonds as it can be difficult to properly catch how well the diamond reflects the light that enters the stone. A poor quality stone can appear very nice in a photo and vice-versa. We can help you select a diamond by using the diamond grading report that each loose stone will have.

vendor: We don''t have any actual images of the diamond. However, I would like to mention we have a 30-day return policy, so if you were to purchase something and decide that you did not wish to keep it, you would be welcome to return it for a full refund provided it has not been altered or damaged. You can read more about our return policy under "Services" at the bottom of our site.

Does this seem legit to you Pricescopers? The proportions for one particular diamond I''m eying rate it as ''ideal'' in the HCA tool. However, I know that idealscope images are more important. Your thoughts?

Thank you!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/10/2009 3:15:28 PM
Author:marmi04


Hi everyone, I was doing an online chat with a vendor featured here on Pricescope. I asked a few questions about what images of the diamonds would be available to me, and this is what I was told:

vendor: We do not have ASET or idealscope images

me: ok. what kind of images are available of the stones?

vendor: We have found that photographs do not accurately portray diamonds as it can be difficult to properly catch how well the diamond reflects the light that enters the stone. A poor quality stone can appear very nice in a photo and vice-versa. We can help you select a diamond by using the diamond grading report that each loose stone will have.

vendor: We don't have any actual images of the diamond. However, I would like to mention we have a 30-day return policy, so if you were to purchase something and decide that you did not wish to keep it, you would be welcome to return it for a full refund provided it has not been altered or damaged. You can read more about our return policy under 'Services' at the bottom of our site.

Does this seem legit to you Pricescopers? The proportions for one particular diamond I'm eying rate it as 'ideal' in the HCA tool. However, I know that idealscope images are more important. Your thoughts?

Thank you!

Hi Marmi

Yes this sounds legitimate, for example Blue Nile don't offer images on their diamonds so if this is the vendor this is quite usual. The HCA is used for elimination not selection, the aim is to score below 2 then evaluate with Idealscope or ASET images, however as this won't be possible you can either post the link or write down all the proportions of the diamond you are interested in here, and we can go from there.

 

[marmi04]

Thanks Lorelei, you are always so fast to respond. Here are the specifics on the stone I''m eying. However, every time someone posts specs, the responses always seem to be ''show us the idealscope and ASET. The specs seem great, but we need to see the images to really be able to advise...''

Price: $2,815
Bank wire price:$2,773
Carat weight: 0.88
Cut: Ideal
Color: H
Clarity: SI2
Depth %: 62.5%
Table %: 52%
Symmetry: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Girdle: Medium, Faceted
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.12 x 6.17 x 3.84 mm

 

[risingsun]

We ask for specs in order to help make an evaluation based upon the proportions of the diamond, but we need more information. We ask for the IS and ASET to assess the light performance of the stone. When making an online diamond purchase, this data helps us "see" a stone that we cannot view in person. I hope this makes sense to you

In addition to the specs you have posted, we will need the crown angle, pavillion angle, and lower girdle percentage. Thanks!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/10/2009 3:50:50 PM
Author: risingsun
We ask for specs in order to help make an evaluation based upon the proportions of the diamond, but we need more information. We ask for the IS and ASET to assess the light performance of the stone. When making an online diamond purchase, this data helps us 'see' a stone that we cannot view in person. I hope this makes sense to you

In addition to the specs you have posted, we will need the crown angle, pavillion angle, and lower girdle percentage. Thanks!

Most welcome Marmi!

And Miss Marian is spot on with her advice so nothing I need to add!

Just the table is a bit small and it is a hair deep but if you can post the angles and the rest of the specs Marian mentions then that will be very helpful.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

vendor: We have found that photographs do not accurately portray diamonds as it can be difficult to properly catch how well the diamond reflects the light that enters the stone. A poor quality stone can appear very nice in a photo and vice-versa. We can help you select a diamond by using the diamond grading report that each loose stone will have.

Lorelei, out of curiosity has that been your experience with diamonds photos as well? While I think Idealscope images and ASETs are more effective, in my experience I''m not sold on the vendor''s reply.

Thanks
--Joshua

 

[denverappraiser]

It’s always best to get as much advice as possible before giving a stone grading opinion, even an amateur one. You’ll notice that I and the other pros rarely give an opinion then. It’s always a gamble to give an opinion on a stone you haven’t seen.

Here’s a few things you know:
GIA doesn’t use the term ‘ideal’ to describe their cut grades. AGSL won’t give a grade of ideal to a stone with ‘only’ excellent polish and/or symmetry. This means that either the stone is graded by someone other than GIA or AGSL or the dealer isn’t accurately reporting what the lab report says.

Assuming that they are using the word ‘ideal’ to describe a GIA-excellent cut grade, you know that the GIA parameters and rules put it in roughly the top 40% of the round brilliant cut stones they grade. Where it falls in that continuum and how it might rank on some different scale isn’t available information; the dealer doesn’t know and they are either unable or unwilling to get it.

The dealer considers nothing beyond the contents of the grading report in evaluating stones and apparently aren’t even interested in giving you all of that (your list omits quite a bit of useful data that *IS* included by the reputable labs on their reports). Apparently they haven't made the case to you that this other information wouldn't be helpful, only that they are unwilling to provide it.

Whether or not these are deal killers is up to you. A reasonable return period with no penalty beyond the shipping cost should be a minimum requirement for even considering a dealer so, although this is certainly a nice thing to point out, lack of it should be a deal killer for YOU so I’m not so sure I would include it as a reason to choose this seller over their competitors with similar terms but who may do better on some of the above issues.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/10/2009 4:02:36 PM
Author: serenitydiamonds

vendor: We have found that photographs do not accurately portray diamonds as it can be difficult to properly catch how well the diamond reflects the light that enters the stone. A poor quality stone can appear very nice in a photo and vice-versa. We can help you select a diamond by using the diamond grading report that each loose stone will have.

Lorelei, out of curiosity has that been your experience with diamonds photos as well? While I think Idealscope images and ASETs are more effective, in my experience I'm not sold on the vendor's reply.

Thanks
--Joshua

Hi Joshua,

From a consumer point of view although now I am pretty familiar with looking at diamond photos, although I believe a plain photo can't tell the whole story - far from it - I can get a reasonable idea of cut quality or beauty from a photograph. I don't know if this is because over the years I have looked at probably thousands of diamond photos and my eyes are more " trained" in what to look for or whether it is actually quite easy to tell - but I think I can get a fair idea of what I am looking at when studying a clear and detailed diamond photo as to the standard of cut quality, so I do believe they have their use. Photos I particularly like are James Allen's loupe images, they often give a clear view of the diamond from which I can get quite a lot of info. Also I would rather have a photo than nothing at all and also with fancy shapes for me a photo is essential along with ASET.

 

[Karl_K]

It really comes down to how much risk you want to take and how much time you have.
You can get an IS or ASET and have the stone sent to you and do your own evaluation or pay an appraiser to do so then ship it back if you don''t like it or you can get a prescreened diamond with images that is safer and less hassle.

If h&a is claimed then images must be provided or it should not be considered h&a.

 

[marcy]

I agree with Lorelei you can get a general idea from a picture and there are so many experts on here with greater knowledge than me than will offer opinions as well. I can get pretty decent photos of gems and diamonds with my 2 digital cameras so I''d rather have a vendor offer to send me something than flat out tell me no. I too ran in to this with an online vendor and so I moved on to one who was willing to offer me images.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/10/2009 3:15:28 PM
Author:marmi04


Hi everyone, I was doing an online chat with a vendor featured here on Pricescope. I asked a few questions about what images of the diamonds would be available to me, and this is what I was told:

vendor: We do not have ASET or idealscope images

me: ok. what kind of images are available of the stones?

vendor: We have found that photographs do not accurately portray diamonds as it can be difficult to properly catch how well the diamond reflects the light that enters the stone. A poor quality stone can appear very nice in a photo and vice-versa. We can help you select a diamond by using the diamond grading report that each loose stone will have.

vendor: We don't have any actual images of the diamond. However, I would like to mention we have a 30-day return policy, so if you were to purchase something and decide that you did not wish to keep it, you would be welcome to return it for a full refund provided it has not been altered or damaged. You can read more about our return policy under 'Services' at the bottom of our site.

Does this seem legit to you Pricescopers? The proportions for one particular diamond I'm eying rate it as 'ideal' in the HCA tool. However, I know that idealscope images are more important. Your thoughts?

Thank you!

I would agree with this, sometimes, but only rarely. A good photo will show pretty much how a diamond will look, but can be manipulated.

What I will say is this. In this day and age, and with the education that many consumers now have, to tell a potential client basically, "Don't you worry your little head missy, we will guide you right" is just plain condescending in my opinion.

There are now a plethora of tools available for helping clients to properly evaluate a diamond and to eschew the use of any of them because it is not convenient for the vendor is a poor excuse in my opinion.

Of course, as one of the many vendors who do use such tools, I can be expected to feel this way, so take my comment with the LARGE grain of salt with which it is served.

I will say this too. It is your money, spend it only where you are most comfortable and where you think you are getting the service that should come with you spending a big ol' chunk of your hard earned money. If you are not comfortable, or if you do not feel you are getting proper service, then strongly consider shopping somewhere else.

Wink

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 10/10/2009 4:27:08 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/10/2009 4:02:36 PM

Author: serenitydiamonds

vendor: We have found that photographs do not accurately portray diamonds as it can be difficult to properly catch how well the diamond reflects the light that enters the stone. A poor quality stone can appear very nice in a photo and vice-versa. We can help you select a diamond by using the diamond grading report that each loose stone will have.

Lorelei, out of curiosity has that been your experience with diamonds photos as well? While I think Idealscope images and ASETs are more effective, in my experience I''m not sold on the vendor''s reply.


Thanks

--Joshua

Hi Joshua,


From a consumer point of view although now I am pretty familiar with looking at diamond photos, although I believe a plain photo can''t tell the whole story - far from it - I can get a reasonable idea of cut quality or beauty from a photograph. I don''t know if this is because over the years I have looked at probably thousands of diamond photos and my eyes are more '' trained'' in what to look for or whether it is actually quite easy to tell - but I think I can get a fair idea of what I am looking at when studying a clear and detailed diamond photo as to the standard of cut quality, so I do believe they have their use. Photos I particularly like are James Allen''s loupe images, they often give a clear view of the diamond from which I can get quite a lot of info. Also I would rather have a photo than nothing at all and also with fancy shapes for me a photo is essential along with ASET.

Lorelei,
Thanks, my experience is the same as yours, they definitely help but they don''t tell the whole story, just was curious on your take. Thanks

--J

 

[Lorelei]

I will say this too. It is your money, spend it only where you are most comfortable and where you think you are getting the service that should come with you spending a big ol' chunk of your hard earned money. If you are not comfortable, or if you do not feel you are getting proper service, then strongly consider shopping somewhere else.

Wink

Thank you Wink for putting this into words. We wouldn't dream of buying any other big ticket item such as a car or a house without detailed information such as photographs/ inspections/ etc and we rightly expect this info to be provided, why should diamonds be any different? I think things are definitely changing and more and more consumers are realizing the value of images when buying a diamond to prove the quality of the cut, once more start demanding these tools then hopefully more online vendors will follow suit and provide it. To me a photograph at least seems a reasonable request of a vendor when proposing to spend a few thousand dollars or more with their business. I wouldn't buy a car without popping the hood, to me images such as ASET etc are the equivalent of popping the hood on a diamond which is being considered for purchase. But as always, it is up to the individual buyer's comfort level, preference and amount of risk they are willing to take.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 10/10/2009 4:43:37 PM
Author: Lorelei

I will say this too. It is your money, spend it only where you are most comfortable and where you think you are getting the service that should come with you spending a big ol'' chunk of your hard earned money. If you are not comfortable, or if you do not feel you are getting proper service, then strongly consider shopping somewhere else.


Wink

Thank you Wink for putting this into words. We wouldn''t dream of buying any other big ticket item such as a car or a house without detailed information such as photographs/ inspections/ etc and we rightly expect this info to be provided, why should diamonds be any different? I think things are definitely changing and more and more consumers are realizing the value of images when buying a diamond to prove the quality of the cut, once more start demanding these tools then hopefully more online vendors will follow suit and provide it. To me a photograph at least seems a reasonable request of a vendor when proposing to spend a few thousand dollars or more with their business. I wouldn''t buy a car without popping the hood, to me images such as ASET etc are the equivalent of popping the hood on a diamond which is being considered for purchase. But as always, it is up to the individual buyer''s comfort level, preference and amount of risk they are willing to take.

I agree with both you guys, it''s one thing not to post the images on the site, it''s another thing entirely not to give the customer an image when requested. Of course, if this is BN, we all know why they cannot provide an image.........hehehehe

--Joshua

 

[risingsun]

If I make an online diamond purchase, I won't consider doing business with a vendor who cannot supply the images that substantiate light return and h&a images. If a b&m store doesn't have the equipment to provide these images, it's not really a problem. I bring my own IS, ASET and h&a viewer and know how to read them

 

[ajoeschmo]

Of course, if this is BN, we all know why they cannot provide an image.........hehehehe

--Joshua

Josh, not all of us know. Explain please?

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 10/10/2009 9:41:48 PM
Author: ajoeschmo

Of course, if this is BN, we all know why they cannot provide an image.........hehehehe

--Joshua

Josh, not all of us know. Explain please?

Some vendors do not carry a specialized stock and list off of a trading network which gives them a very large and flexible stock. This gives them the ability to carry a very wide selection, offer significant price discounts, as carrying an inventory is expensive and not flexible at all (i.e. if I decide 1 cts are popular this year and buy them up, but it turns out everyone wants a 1.5 I''m stuck).

Each vendor reacts to this situation in a different way, some will take the time to examine each stone, choose what they believe is the best, and to dig up pictures from the manufacturers when requested. Other vendors post tons of stones in a ''superstore'' method attempting to cater to everyone. Most pricescopers'' prefer quality over quantity so they tend to find vendors that have the same interest as them, quality and customer service. I bet Lorelei has tons of vendors she can refer people too which are a bit more customer focused.

--Joshua

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/10/2009 10:39:38 PM
Author: serenitydiamonds

Date: 10/10/2009 9:41:48 PM
Author: ajoeschmo

Of course, if this is BN, we all know why they cannot provide an image.........hehehehe

--Joshua

Josh, not all of us know. Explain please?

Some vendors do not carry a specialized stock and list off of a trading network which gives them a very large and flexible stock. This gives them the ability to carry a very wide selection, offer significant price discounts, as carrying an inventory is expensive and not flexible at all (i.e. if I decide 1 cts are popular this year and buy them up, but it turns out everyone wants a 1.5 I''m stuck).

Each vendor reacts to this situation in a different way, some will take the time to examine each stone, choose what they believe is the best, and to dig up pictures from the manufacturers when requested. Other vendors post tons of stones in a ''superstore'' method attempting to cater to everyone. Most pricescopers'' prefer quality over quantity so they tend to find vendors that have the same interest as them, quality and customer service. I bet Lorelei has tons of vendors she can refer people too which are a bit more customer focused.

--Joshua

Actually I am very neutral and well known for that, and do indeed have tons of vendors I have worked with to help other consumers - including Blue Nile.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 10/11/2009 5:47:35 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/10/2009 10:39:38 PM

Author: serenitydiamonds

Date: 10/10/2009 9:41:48 PM

Author: ajoeschmo

Of course, if this is BN, we all know why they cannot provide an image.........hehehehe

--Joshua

Josh, not all of us know. Explain please?

Some vendors do not carry a specialized stock and list off of a trading network which gives them a very large and flexible stock. This gives them the ability to carry a very wide selection, offer significant price discounts, as carrying an inventory is expensive and not flexible at all (i.e. if I decide 1 cts are popular this year and buy them up, but it turns out everyone wants a 1.5 I''m stuck).


Each vendor reacts to this situation in a different way, some will take the time to examine each stone, choose what they believe is the best, and to dig up pictures from the manufacturers when requested. Other vendors post tons of stones in a ''superstore'' method attempting to cater to everyone. Most pricescopers'' prefer quality over quantity so they tend to find vendors that have the same interest as them, quality and customer service. I bet Lorelei has tons of vendors she can refer people too which are a bit more customer focused.


--Joshua

Actually I am very neutral and well known for that, and do indeed have tons of vendors I have worked with to help other consumers - including Blue Nile.

Exactly, which is why I think you would be a good person to ask if they wanted a vendor who could get pictures/etc.

--Joshua

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/11/2009 9:11:48 AM
Author: serenitydiamonds

Date: 10/11/2009 5:47:35 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/10/2009 10:39:38 PM

Author: serenitydiamonds

Date: 10/10/2009 9:41:48 PM

Author: ajoeschmo

Of course, if this is BN, we all know why they cannot provide an image.........hehehehe

--Joshua

Josh, not all of us know. Explain please?

Some vendors do not carry a specialized stock and list off of a trading network which gives them a very large and flexible stock. This gives them the ability to carry a very wide selection, offer significant price discounts, as carrying an inventory is expensive and not flexible at all (i.e. if I decide 1 cts are popular this year and buy them up, but it turns out everyone wants a 1.5 I''m stuck).


Each vendor reacts to this situation in a different way, some will take the time to examine each stone, choose what they believe is the best, and to dig up pictures from the manufacturers when requested. Other vendors post tons of stones in a ''superstore'' method attempting to cater to everyone. Most pricescopers'' prefer quality over quantity so they tend to find vendors that have the same interest as them, quality and customer service. I bet Lorelei has tons of vendors she can refer people too which are a bit more customer focused.


--Joshua

Actually I am very neutral and well known for that, and do indeed have tons of vendors I have worked with to help other consumers - including Blue Nile.

Exactly, which is why I think you would be a good person to ask if they wanted a vendor who could get pictures/etc.

--Joshua

Thank you!!!

 

[marmi04]

Thanks to all for your input on this. To answer the questions:

Depth: 62.5%
Table: 52%
Crown Angle: 34.5°
Crown Height: 16.0%
Pavilion Angle: 40.8°
Pavilion Depth: 43.0%
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 75%
Girdle: Medium, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Clarity Characteristics: Feather, Cloud
Additional Inscription: [MAPLE LEAF OUTLINE SYMBOL] H&A

With this being an SI2 diamond, I do worry about the visibility of the inclusions. Sounds like my only options are to pass up on this one, or go through the trouble of purchasing it and taking it to an appraisor (which sounds like a hastle).

Thanks, Mike

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/11/2009 9:16:40 PM
Author: marmi04
Thanks to all for your input on this. To answer the questions:

Depth: 62.5%
Table: 52%
Crown Angle: 34.5°
Crown Height: 16.0%
Pavilion Angle: 40.8°
Pavilion Depth: 43.0%
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 75%
Girdle: Medium, Faceted (3.5%)
Culet: None
Clarity Characteristics: Feather, Cloud
Additional Inscription: [MAPLE LEAF OUTLINE SYMBOL] H&A

With this being an SI2 diamond, I do worry about the visibility of the inclusions. Sounds like my only options are to pass up on this one, or go through the trouble of purchasing it and taking it to an appraisor (which sounds like a hastle).

Thanks, Mike

As I said before its a hair deep for my preferences but it is a well cut diamond from what I can tell without images, the critical angles are within good range.

Yes with SI2 you do need to be concerned with the visibility of any inclusions so ask the BN rep to find out if it is eyeclean from all angles and if the grade setting cloud is impacting performance.